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<pie_>
<ring0_starr> gdb is *fine*, that's the issue. it's not exceptional, intuitive, discoverable. there's no equivalent to ollydbg or windbg for not-Windows actually
<pie_>
<ring0_starr> i learned by poking around through the GUI and seeing 500 different windows full of information and how they update each time i hit run
<pie_>
ollydbg and Lena(?)'s reverse engineering or cracking or whatever tutorials are what started me off having any idea about low level stuff
<pie_>
people could really take example from windows for this...
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<heat>
gdb stands for gnu database
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<pog>
gnu sql server 2025
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<heat>
gog's not unix
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<the_oz>
gib de bugz
* FireFly
. o O ( gog's obviously gnu )
<the_oz>
I'd like to interject for a moment...
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<karenw>
What you are refering to as gog is actually GOG+Linux.
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<AmyMalik>
vè
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<pog>
i'm gog
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<FireFly>
+linux
<FireFly>
apparently
<gog>
id on't know what linux is
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<FireFly>
I think it's the name of a penguin
* FireFly
nods
<gog>
linux the pengin
<heat>
linux is so cool they named linus torvalds after it lol
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<sortie>
:D
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<heat>
serenityos's procfs and sysfs are JSON
<karenw>
Why not use an adhoc mixture of arbitary text formats like Linux? /s
<heat>
text formats are abitrary cuz they're just more readable using command line tools
<bslsk05>
osquery/osquery - SQL powered operating system instrumentation, monitoring, and analytics. (2467 forks/22110 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<heat>
you cannot pick a one-size-fits-all format without it looking horrid
<karenw>
Oh /proc and /sys should be text for sure.
<karenw>
But it's the fact in linux one file is a bunch of \t separated numbers, the next is \n separated, then another one is more structured and...
<nikolar>
heat: JSONNNNSNNDADAAS
<heat>
you can just think "whitespace" and it kinda Just Works
<heat>
but i can't think of a way to lay out information in a way thats universally readable and good looking
<nikolar>
just isspace() it
<nikolar>
heat: you can't
<heat>
right
<nikolar>
you either do something ugly like json or, god forbid, yaml
<nikolar>
or you do adhoc junk that's almost trivial to parse
<heat>
json looks like arse and you'd need to interpret it anyway
<nikolar>
yea
<heat>
otoh they ditched the fancy formatting for linux sysfs and it's usually just single-file-single-value
<nikolar>
that's uglier to read manually
<heat>
which is okay but you lose lots of the nice parts about just doing $ watch -n 10 cat /proc/meminfo
<nikolar>
but i guess easier to work with
<nikolar>
ye
<heat>
json i guess kinda forces you to parse it correctly
<nikolar>
eww
<heat>
doing procfs is always kind of a mess anyway
<nikolar>
i have to do things properly?
<karenw>
json is maringally better than xml at being both human and machine readable I guess
<nikolar>
karenw: except that both suck when you remove whitespace
<nikolar>
like completely unreadable
<karenw>
Note to self: Make umbralos' procfs/sysfs use XML for maximum pain
<heat>
like halfway through the linux proc journey they decided to add version numbers to the whole file
<heat>
but it turns out most tools dont parse it
<heat>
so the format gets kinda stuck in dont-break-abi land anyway
<nikolar>
lol
<karenw>
*Unless it's the DRM subsystem apparently
<heat>
DRM subsystem can do whatever the fuck it wants
<karenw>
Where the rule is relaxed to "don't break libdrm"
<heat>
mainly due to the DRM subsystem also being its own consumer
<heat>
and people maintaining userspace DRM consumers also heavily overlap with the kernel people anyway
<karenw>
I tried once to make a wayland surface without using anything above libdrm. I got lost in the maze of gpu allocators and gave up.
<heat>
DRM is a little bit of an inbred mess
<nikolar>
kind of like win32.dll or whatever it was called on windows
<heat>
win32k.sys
<nikolar>
you're not supposed to touch the kernel interface dirrectly
<heat>
graphics is really fuckin special because it's really fuckin complicated and off doing its own thing
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<heat>
the kernel is the least important bit of the whole process really
<nikolar>
yea
<nikolar>
graphics suck
<heat>
hence the traditional unix solution of just porting DRM
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
i suspect sound also sucks
<karenw>
"So you want to allocate a gpu buffer? Well we have two allocators, the modern one of which has two sub modes, and there's no generic alloc() function even if all the other functions are generic, you have to use amdgpu_new() or equivlent.
<nikolar>
i suspect it sucks significantly less
<nikolar>
(sound i mean)
<heat>
karenw, yes there are basically no common ioctls
<heat>
i think it kinda makes sense
<heat>
sound sucks significantly less in the sense that you dont have to write a compiler and opengl and vulkan and opencl implementations
<heat>
but sucks in having to do mixing and being really latency sensitive and shit
<karenw>
I am still surprised how stable this laptop is. The integrated gpu is Radeon kernel driver, the high performance gpu is using amdgpu and *somehow this works*
<nikolar>
sure
<heat>
and for unix if you dont want to die you're emulating something like the pulseaudio API anyway
<heat>
wifi also sucks just port linux (or openbsd!) driveren
<nikolar>
everything sucks
<nikolar>
just do serial
<heat>
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<heat>
storage is nice
<nikolar>
fine, storage gets a pass
<nikolar>
and networking is bearable from what i can tell
* karenw
is still lost trying to understand IRQ handling and ACPI parsing.
<heat>
USB is okay, networking is bearable but like, the traditional solution is also to take the intel e1000 driver from freebsd or something
<nikolar>
kek
<nikolar>
isn't e1000 simle enough to just write a driver
<heat>
yeah but AFAIK there are like a thousand variants of it
<nikolar>
nice
<heat>
and your driver is never really as complete as intel's stuff
<heat>
which, to be clear, they share that freebsd shit between the firmware too
<heat>
they wrote one BSD-licensed driver and just use it all over the place
<heat>
storage is definitely nice though
<heat>
NVMe is so hot
<karenw>
No, that's just the SSD not having a good enough heatsink.
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
no compilers no bytecode just rawdogging some bytes over the internet
<nikolar>
what more do you need
<heat>
karenw, do you need help
<karenw>
Help?
<Ermine>
Days without kernel wifi bugs: 0
<nikolar>
what was it now Ermine
<Ermine>
it stops working
<Ermine>
then it starts working again
<nikolar>
to be fair, wifi just sucks
<nikolar>
i've had more issues on while i was on windows than now on linux kek
<Ermine>
i have the opposite situation
<nikolar>
see
<nikolar>
wifi sucks
<nikolar>
no one has it working properly
<Ermine>
never had any issues with it on windows
<heat>
they say openbsd kind of excels at it
<nikolar>
for like 5 wifi cards they support
<heat>
is it?
<karenw>
Best laptop I had, had a minor problem with linux wifi. It needed an out-of-tree driver. Which required me to download it from the internet... Can you see where this is going?
<nikolar>
i don't think they support the newest standards
<nikolar>
i forgot what the cut off generally is
<Ermine>
karenw: i specially ordered a dongle from china because it has mediatek chip which has mainline support
<karenw>
Ermine: I used sneakernet via USB to initially load the driver source onto the machine. :)
<nikolar>
sneakernet?
<karenw>
Yeah, I downloaded it on my desktop and physically walked over to my laptop.
<karenw>
Do Android and iOS get their own entries?
<nikolar>
hey not bad
<heat>
(and yes apparently netbsd has a separate wifi stack, dunno)
<nikolar>
karenw: no
<heat>
obv not
<nikolar>
they are linux and macos
<karenw>
Wee-woo, trademark police are coming for calling Android 'Linux'.
<heat>
oh actually netbsd is freebsd's
<heat>
maybe an old version
<heat>
so yeah linux, fbsd, openbsd, windows, macOS
<heat>
karenw, android definitely uses linux
<nikolar>
and all of apple's OSs are just macos
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<heat>
just because android NIH'd a lot of linux just to avoid GPL doesn't mean it's not linux
<nikolar>
i doubt they reinvented the wifi stack
<heat>
wifi stack is in the kernel so probably not
<nikolar>
exactly
<heat>
probably just the userspace bits
<nikolar>
and that's if they aren't building on top of existing stuff
<heat>
if its GPL the answer is a very likely no
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
its not really kek that's just how they do/did things
<nikolar>
i know
<heat>
glibc? how about we roll our own janky libc
<heat>
even mkfs was rolled from scratch (and in a buggy way, i've heard, that caused fucked up filesystems from time to time)
<nikolar>
lol why
<nikolar>
just use the thing
<Ermine>
because google
<heat>
e2fsprogs is GPL
<nikolar>
but why do they need to modify it
<Ermine>
they can afford NIHing things
<nikolar>
just use the thing
<heat>
you dont need to, but the GPL is scary and corps run away from it
<nikolar>
well no one's linking against mkfs as far as i know
<nikolar>
so that shouldn't matter
<heat>
you're distributing it
<mcrod>
DID SOMEONE SAY GPL IN MY HOUSE
<nikolar>
sure, link the upstream because you aren't modifying
<heat>
that means you need to COMPLY WITH THE LICENSE
* mcrod
pulls out AK-47
<nikolar>
and problem solved, and you have a working mkfs
<heat>
they also switched to clang
<nikolar>
lol
<heat>
they use toybox as shell utils, mksh as a shell
<heat>
like, they did bionic.
<karenw>
GCC explicitly has an exemption from the GPL for libgcc.
<heat>
fucking bionic.
<karenw>
Like, it's explicitly a goal for GCC that you can build propietary software with it if you want (but please don't)
<heat>
bionic was terrible and is now "just bad", a whole pile of work
<Ermine>
what if android moves to llvm-libc
<heat>
lmfao jesus
<heat>
and <speculation> they also created fuchsia because of GPL, a whole non-trivial microkernel NIH operating system because of fucking GPL </speculation>
<heat>
gpl is scary man
<nikolar>
even as a kernel where there is a very clear boundary
<heat>
there _kind of_ isn't
<Ermine>
microkernel is the reason i wish them luck on this project
<heat>
are modules derivative work?
<nikolar>
i don't think so
<heat>
i would beg to differ
<nikolar>
why
<nikolar>
same as using dlopen
<Ermine>
also one phoronix guy thinks that's because google doesn't want to fuck with linux unstable kernel driver api
<heat>
you usually dont write shared objects against the main program
<nikolar>
Ermine: so they are writing their own unstable kernel api :P
<heat>
if you do, it's kind of a derivative work, no?
<mcrod>
why are software engineers forced to be lawyers
<karenw>
FSF believes that a shared object is not automatically a derivative work, but something like a compiler plugin would be a DW of the compiler
<nikolar>
i mean plugins/mods that use the interface to the main program don't exactly count as derivative work
<karenw>
So I would say by their definition, a kernel driver is a DW of the kernel
<nikolar>
right
<heat>
binary linked, taking full, direct, closed advantage of a GPL program to me is a derivative work
<nikolar>
i guess some lawyers need to duke it out
<Ermine>
on kernel modules, look for that german 'netfilter guy vs VMWare' case
<mcrod>
at work there is a standing order that any and all GPL stuff is forbidden which is nothing new
<Ermine>
nikolar: and nobody cares because it's microkernel
<heat>
what ended up happening is that there's an API that isn't GPL encumbered (and any module sees it) and there's an API that is GPL encumbered (and any module that's GPL sees it)
<nikolar>
i am sure they will care once they realise that certain drivers really do beling in the kernel space Ermine
<heat>
which, IMO, is also why openzfs is a walking GPL violation
<heat>
and nvidia-uvm but that's going away
<Ermine>
nikolar: at that moment they will be doing hybrid kernel by definition
<nikolar>
i doubt anyone is going to press the zfs issue any time soon
<nikolar>
even if it was a violation
<nikolar>
Ermine: so unstable kernel apis
<heat>
>because google doesn't want to fuck with linux unstable kernel driver api
<heat>
yes
<Ermine>
nobody cares for unstable kernel apis in microkernel
<heat>
GPL + a bunch of other reasons
<nikolar>
Ermine: you just said that it was a hybrid kernel
<nikolar>
and acknowledged that some drivers are going to be in *kernelspace*
<heat>
kernel being GPL + vendors not giving a shit
<heat>
nikolar, i dont think they will
<Ermine>
nikolar: in other words: they are doing microkernel, in which, by definition, no drivers belong to kernel space
<nikolar>
heat: who will what
<nikolar>
Ermine: it's either hybrid or micro
<heat>
i dont think they'll add drivers to kernel space
<nikolar>
it can't be both
<Ermine>
if they move some drivers into kernel space, it becomes hybrid
<karenw>
Linux's stance is that drivers are not derived works. But since that stance was made, a lot of APIs are only exposed to GPL-compatible drivers.
<heat>
i had a discussion with a fuchsia dev and he said "oh zircon isn't a microkernel, it's pragmatic"
<heat>
and, you know, BULLSHIT
<Ermine>
here we go
<karenw>
And at least one lawsuit was made over someone licensing their driver as `GPL\0where applicable, otherwise private`
<heat>
writing a whole OS isn't pragmatic, writing a fucking MICROKERNEL in a way that they did is PRAGMATIC * 0.0000000000000000000000001
<nikolar>
karenw: kek what's that even supposed to mean
<nikolar>
heat: kek
<karenw>
nikolar: Not GPL, but we want to the kernel module loader to treat us like we are
<karenw>
Because it stopped parsing at the first nul
<nikolar>
karenw: kek i get that
<heat>
fuchsia is the least pragmatic, compatible project i've ever seen where 99% of things (except mesa lol) are NIH'd
<nikolar>
i meant, what did they thing it would mean legally
<nikolar>
heat: kekkers
<heat>
it's just true, it is what it is, but dont say your OS is freaking pragmatic
<karenw>
nikolar: I don't think any lawyer or anyone with legal knowledge was part of the descision to do that lmao
<nikolar>
lol i know
<nikolar>
but you can't just mindlessy add "where applicable" and expect it to be fine
<heat>
IIRC what happened in that case was that LOL WTF and the \0 people obviously lost
<nikolar>
obviously
<karenw>
I mean, if there's any laws against bypassing DRM, they just immediately fell foul of them. Before the potential IP case.
<karenw>
The less cool meaning of DRM*
<nikolar>
kek
<karenw>
heat: NIH? Have you not met the GNOME project?
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<nikolar>
gnome project kind of sucks to be fair
<karenw>
"GTK applications don't need server side decorations, therefore no application ever needs them because you can rewrite it as a gtk app"
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<heat>
GNOME is also NIH yeah
<nikolar>
screw gnome
<heat>
but it's not a whole OS
<heat>
i'd say macOS is like the most pragmatic OS there is
<heat>
such that it's both highly compatible and actively disgusting
<nikolar>
LOL
<mcrod>
GNOME is love
<nikolar>
it sure is disguisting
<karenw>
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as OS, is in fact, Userspace/OS, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Userspace plus OS. An OS is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning userspace system made useful by the userspace libraries, utilites and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by my arse.
<nikolar>
mcrod: gnome is eww
<heat>
gnome works
<mcrod>
you need the right extensions and gnome-tweaks
<mcrod>
then it's perfect
<mcrod>
it's not perfect out of the box
<nikolar>
heat: sure, a lot of thing work
<nikolar>
gnome is also just eww
<mcrod>
you need hide activities button, you need dash to dock and the kstatusnotifier extensions
<karenw>
gnome-wayland is awful
<mcrod>
and then you need gnome-tweaks to restore minimize and maximize
<karenw>
I agree CSDs are better, but flat refusing to support SSDs is actively hostile NIH crap
<mcrod>
wait what
<Ermine>
s/gnome-wayland/gnome/k
<bslsk05>
<karenw*> gnome is awful
<mcrod>
oh it took me a moment
<karenw>
Okay, but mutter is a particlarly gross shade of awful
<nikolar>
lol
<mcrod>
i dunno. all I know is, everything works exactly the way I want it to
<mcrod>
well, almost everything
<mcrod>
I do not have the time or the patience to fuck around endlessly with i3-gaps, KDE is heavy, xfce? who the hell's heard of xfce in the past few years?
<heat>
GNOME sounds like the musl of DE's then
<mcrod>
probably everyone but me, but I've legit haven't heard of xfce in _years_
<karenw>
>KDE is heavy
<mcrod>
KDE is heavy
<mcrod>
your turn
* karenw
cries on their 10 year old shittop that's running kubuntu just fine
<nikolar>
xfce is peferctly cromulent de
<nikolar>
so is mate
<karenw>
The only heavy thing on here unless I want to run vidya gaymes is having an encrypted root fs on spinning rust
<heat>
xfce is terrible
<mcrod>
GNOME pissed me off recently though
<mcrod>
suddenly I need gcr services because they nuked some ssh passphrase thing
<nikolar>
heat: why
<mcrod>
no updates on the arch wiki or from GNOME other than a single solitary pull request
<nikolar>
mcrod: as i said, gnome sucks
<mcrod>
that's the only problem I've had
<heat>
nikolar, it's a UNIX nerd's idea of what a usable normal desktop system is
<mcrod>
to be clear
<mcrod>
no DE/WM is ever perfect
<heat>
it looks like shit, feels like shit
<nikolar>
heat: i mean it was fine while i used
<nikolar>
not a as a daily driver
<mcrod>
there will never be a universal "yes this is good" for DEs/WMs
<nikolar>
but still
<mcrod>
but GNOME without the proper extensions is pretty bad
<karenw>
At least we have a choice in DEs
<mcrod>
cannot live without dash to dock, minimize/maximize, or tray icons
<mcrod>
boggles the fucking mind that they got rid of tray icons
<karenw>
Could be worse, any Windows version after 7
<nikolar>
mcrod: see, those are things that gnome is actively working against
<nikolar>
as i said, gnome sucks
<mcrod>
don't worry
<mcrod>
enshittification will eventually lead me to try something else
<CompanionCube>
mcrod: it's not just you, a GNOME developer 14 years ago: 'I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app unfortunately. I'm sorry that this is the case but it wasn't GNOME's fault that Ubuntu has started this fork. And I have no idea what XFCE is or does sorry.'
<mcrod>
it's inevitable
<mcrod>
CompanionCube ok that's a little nuts
<mcrod>
xfce was the bees knees 14 years ago
<mcrod>
that's when I heard xfce, openbox, KDE, and GNOME
<mcrod>
never heard anything else during that time
<heat>
nikolar, and you are a UNIX nerd
<nikolar>
lol sure
vdamewood has quit [Quit: Life beckons]
<gog>
lxqt
<kof673>
<reads backlog> eh, pragmatic was kind of nih in certain circles.......that is, the business people don't care about this gpl and compatibility stuff, they just want to run a business....... i am not advocating that, but surreal to see pragmatic used in opposite sense :D
<kof673>
a pragmatic person was a business person who didn't worry about any of this
<karenw>
Pragmatic to me means "The boss has asked for something stupid, so it's going to be shit but spec-complete"
<kof673>
yeah, or "noone ever got fired for choosing IBM" -- pragmatic
<heat>
being compatible is business-pragmatic
<heat>
"hey boss whatever linux can run we can run" is huge
<kof673>
sure, but the % of companies making OSen versus % of other businesses doing other things, and not even software, is slim to none
<heat>
i mean there's a plenthora of things where being compatible is a huge bonus
<heat>
software, hardware, whatever
<heat>
my printer takes A4 paper
<heat>
also uses USB
<heat>
(forgetting the cartridge nightmare for a little lol)