klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<Jari--> hi all
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<childlikempress> no
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<heat> hi yall
<zid> teet
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<kof673> found my logo > Indy grabs the skewer of pigeons flambe
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<bslsk05> ​i.imgur.com <no title>
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<nikolar> rip optane
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<Ermine> yeah
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<heat> optane was an idea with an expiration date
<heat> good fucking riddance
<nikolar> why do you hate optane so much heat
<nikolar> having ssds that basically never die from writing too much doesn't sound too bad to me
<heat> which version of optane are you talking about?
<nikolar> the good one
<nikolar> 3d xpoint thing
<heat> that means nothign
<nikolar> which one are you talking about then
<heat> you had optane as an expensive byte addressable pmem thing, you had optane as a regular ssd, you had optane as a drive cache (most common)
<heat> drive cache had an expiry date, regular ssds are regular ssds, optane as an expensive byte addressable thing was probably a crap idea at the end of the day anyway too (and needs explicit filesystem support to be _really_ good)
<nikolar> i meant optane ssds
<nikolar> that you can have like millions of write cycles before they die
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<heat> thats legit but i'd guess there's not a lot of money involved in that business
<heat> vs the R&D cost
<heat> intel is firstly a cpu vendor and secondly a foundry
<heat> thirdly everything else
<nikolar> yea
<zid> they sold the business though right
<zid> not just deleting the tech
<zid> heat I came up withj a solution for your timer code elsewhere
<zid> [14:52] <zid`> keep a big table of how many primes/sec each microarch should be able to do per ghz
<zid> [14:52] <zid`> time against that
<nikolar> zid: i think they've sold it to micron
<nikolar> but i don't think any new ssds came out of that
<zid> yea probably just cannibalized the process node to make someother thing
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<heat> i have a horrible thing to tell you
<heat> you can't measure you frequency without measuring the base freq beforehand
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<immibis> heat: reminds me of microsoft's naming schemes
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<Ermine> > intel is secondly a foundry --- separating manufacturing stuff into a subsidiary and going fabless seems like good idea
<GeDaMo> I think Gelsinger wanted to do that
<nikolar> they kind of did
<Ermine> amd did that
<nikolar> the foundary side is pretty independant and i think tsmc is manufacturing some of intel's stuff too
<nikolar> Ermine: yea
<GeDaMo> "The same can't be said of Intel's ailing foundry unit, for which the real reckoning came in early 2024 when Intel officially split off Foundry as a standalone unit and released revised financial reports revealing that the unit had bled $7 billion in 2023." https://www.theregister.com/2024/12/02/intel_gelsinger_leave/
<bslsk05> ​www.theregister.com: Intel CEO takes his leave as ambition meets reality • The Register
<Ermine> well, that's "kind of"
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<SupUser> la de da di
<SupUser> we like's to party
<zid> like is to party? I think you need to brush up on your vengaboys lore
<SupUser> is can be any word
<zid> In other news, tunak tunak, tunak tunak, tuna da da da
<SupUser> w/e
<nikolar> zid: tunak tunak
<SupUser> u guys breaking some records though?
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<bslsk05> ​lore.kernel.org: Rust in QEMU roadmap - Paolo Bonzini
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<nikolar> yuck
<zid> "it worked great, after we made everything unsafe"
<zid> "also you need to grab code from a random internet repo"
<zid> so, same as every other rust proposal ever
<nikolar> kek
<fedaykin> qemu is user-space, why not rust?
<zid> why rust?
<zid> It's harder to maintain, slower, and you have to disable most of the 'benefits'
<nikolar> literally why rust
<fedaykin> memory safe? easy to debug
<nikolar> it most certainly isn't as easy to debug as c
<zid> easy to debug is very not a thing C suffers issues with
<zid> other languages *wish* they could be debugged like C
<nikolar> indeed
<nikolar> especially languages like rust or c++
<fedaykin> debugging c is hard, have you looked into linux kernel memory model, rcu implementation in c, memory barriers and have you tried to debug a kernel issue?
<zid> yes?
<nikolar> and rust helps with that how exactly?
<zid> Rust will help with none of that, but also you won't get debug info
<fedaykin> well, good for you, but what if a tram hits you tomorrow?
<zid> what
<nikolar> wat
<zid> "How does rust help you debug the linux kernel memory model" "A train could hit you"
<fedaykin> i'd rather home someone with less experience being able to fix an issue
<zid> how does it help *anyone*
<fedaykin> then depend only on highly skilled few
<fedaykin> *than
<zid> I cause some spectucular crash inside the rust stdlib by feeding it invalid shit from an unsafe'ly made reference
<zid> you're now debugging the same speculacular crash I'd have caused in C
<nikolar> but zid, rust is safe and easy to debug
<zid> but now it's inside some compiled rust code
<nikolar> how don't you ge tit
<fedaykin> if it's user-space, i say go rust
<zid> again, to what benefit?
<fedaykin> less bugs
<zid> We started at you saying it, we asked why
<zid> we're back to where we started
<zid> rust code that actually compiles, I would be generous and say, likely has less bugs, yes. The problem is *getting* there.
<nikolar> rust = less bugs
<nikolar> it's just obvious
<nikolar> no further proof needed
<zid> Without absolutely destroying various things like maintainability, portability, performance etc
<fedaykin> have you shared your concerns on the mailing list?
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<fedaykin> what did they say? =)
<zid> it's qemu's perogative to do what they want
<fedaykin> right, we are moving along thenm
<nikolar> who's we
<zid> I think fedaykin must be all of the lead developers on qemu
<fedaykin> qemu community
<fedaykin> i am not =)
<zid> see
<nikolar> i am a qemu user and i say we don't move along then
<nikolar> what nowp
<nikolar> *what now
<fedaykin> nikolar: let them know then
<zid> why?
<nikolar> i just did?
<zid> It's a proposal
<zid> also, you are they
<zid> and we told you
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<fedaykin> sounds good, let's see more qualified people than myself address your concerns
<zid> It's up to them what they care about
<zid> rust isn't broken, it WILL work
<nikolar> it's just a bad choice
<zid> it's just not a decision I'd make, because it's going to cause pain to them and to users
<nikolar> i am sure having build times explode by an order of magnitude is worth it zid
<zid> I checked the actual qemu community
<zid> they think it won't go farther than surface level, because of things like tracepoints
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<nikolar> good
<fedaykin> guys, have you ever tried to fix a data race in rcu code on some weak memory model archs?
<fedaykin> how much time did it take you to fix it?
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<nikolar> i wonder how rust fixes that particular issue
<fedaykin> you don't have data races with rust
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<nikolar> sure buddy
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<fedaykin> i'd rather play video games
<nikolar> go ahead?
<fedaykin> you do you and stay cool, im gonna do me and play video games instead debugging c =)
<nikolar> i've had much easier time debugging c than javascript if you believe that
* Ermine ticks off rust on his #osdev bingo card
<nikolar> Ermine: oi
<zid> dw, nikolar, javascript doesn't h ave types, so all javascript projects come with 1TB of unit tests that reimplement half a type system
<nikolar> lol
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<netbsduser> fedaykin: rcu isn't done for the fun of it!
<heat> i see we had some interesting rust discussions as always
<netbsduser> it's done because kernels are full of shared state
<netbsduser> it's all good and well to boast of rust's phearless concurrency but you need to engage in frightful concurrency in a kernel
<heat> scared shitless tactical memory barrier placement
<zid> I assume he continued trolling
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<nikolar> zid: actually hasn't said anything
<bslsk05> ​twitter: <IanCutress> - Optane officially had final nail under his watch, but was dead long before ␤ - Tofino was removed due to lack of demand: no-one wanted P4 switches, they want P4 NICs ␤ - Royal Core is what? Rumor mill wet dream? 🧴 ␤ - Rialto Bridge was removed from roadmap due to lack of demand ␤ - [https://twitter.com/Kepler_L2/status/1863612828982088135 <Kepler_L2>
<bslsk05> ​> Becomes Intel CEO ␤ > Kills Optane ␤ > Kills Tofino ␤ > Kills Royal Core ␤ > Kills Rialto Bridge ␤ > Fires 20% of employees ␤ > Refuses to elaborate ␤ > Leaves ]
<nikolar> heat: kek
<heat> puck, bslsk05 has been super fast now, good shit
<heat> lol
<heat> did literally nothing change? cuz it sure as hell feels a lot faster now
<bslsk05> ​www.youtube.com: - YouTube
<zid> 2 or so seconds, idk man
<bslsk05> ​www.google.com: Google
<heat> yep defo way faster
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<heat> this used to take like 5-10s
<zid> maybe it took 10 seconds for blsk's libera server to get to portugoose internet
<zid> but he reconnected and is closer now
<zid> (also the video I linked to test it is lol)
<heat> oh that's freaky
<heat> motion is cray cray
<zid> touhou girls are like dinosaurs, if you don't move they can't see you
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<Ermine> heat: fwiw I reposted that pic from meme public
<heat> what pic
<Ermine> with that post about Pat killing Optane, Tofino, etc
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