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<BrokenCog>
Query: is cl-object the CLOS wrapper?
<BrokenCog>
or is something else?
<BrokenCog>
Also, in reading about symbols, #: indicates "has no home package", which I am reading is not the same as "not interned in any package" ... how are those two statements not tautological??
<bike>
you can intern a symbol in one or more extra packages, and then unintern it from its home package, and then it will not have a home package but still be interned in the other package(s).
<bike>
but if you read in a symbol with #: it will not be interned in any packages (unless you do that yourself later, for some reason)
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<may>
Hi! This is a bit of a longshot, but does anyone have a GitHub actions file or template handy that compiles your program on several different implementations? I thought it might be useful to be able to say, with the CI, that "Project X works on several implementations: A, B, and C", although compiles != works. If not, I can roll my own, but I thought I'd check quick.
<bike>
i think 40ants has something more comprehensive, but i couldn't figure it out
<may>
Thank you, I'll take a look. I saw 40ants and may utilize some of that, depending.
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<BrokenCog>
bike: thanks.
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<paule32>
hello, how can i supress the quicklisp package laof messages ?
<paule32>
load
<paule32>
i use sbcl
<McParen>
Can I push new elements to a quoted list? (defparameter foo '(1 2 3)) (push 4 foo) in sbcl evaluates to (4 1 2 3), but is this actually allowed? I remember reading that modifying literal lists was undefined.
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<paule32>
McParen: you cab this by using a vector
<paule32>
can do
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<thuna`>
McParen: (push 4 foo) should be fine, you run into a problem when you are modifying the quoted list itself, as in, (push 4 (cdr foo))
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<McParen>
so does push here prduce a new list?
<McParen>
under the hood, push expands to (setq foo (cons 4 foo))
<thuna`>
McParen: It's a new cons cell whose car is 4 and cdr is the quoted list
<thuna`>
paule32: I don't know if there is a canonical way to do it, but just looking at apropos, I see (uiop:with-null-output (*standard-output*) ...), which might be what you want
<thuna`>
paule32: You can use uiop:with-null-output instead of uiop:with-output-to-string
<paule32>
thuna`: ah oh, yes, it works, thanks
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<dnhester26>
in a loop over a list, how can I tell when I'm in the last element?
<beach>
,(loop with (a . b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) when (null b) do (print a))
<ixelp>
(loop with (a . b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) when (null b) do (print a)) ERROR: ON is an unknown keyword in LOOP macro. ↩ Current LOOP context: ON '(1 2 3 4 5).
<beach>
,(loop for (a . b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) when (null b) do (print a))
<ixelp>
(loop for (a . b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) when (null b) do (print a)) ↩ 5 => NIL
<beach>
Sorry.
<dnhester26>
beach: thanks!
<beach>
Sure.
<paule32>
i would use the Qt framework. loading via quicklisp is fine, but i get .dll error: Error opening shared object "smokeqtcore.dll":
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<beach>
McParen: As thuna` pointed out, (SETQ FOO ... ) modifies the variable FOO and not the list, and (CONS 4 FOO) creates a new CONS cell with the original LIST in its CDR, also without modifying the original list.
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<McParen>
can I afterwards modify foo?
<McParen>
hello cage
<cage>
Hi McParen!
<beach>
McParen: You can modify the variable as much as you like. What you can't modify is the original list, i.e., the CONS cells that make it up.
<McParen>
so it would be the safer choice to cons a new element to a copy of the original list, right?
<McParen>
in order to be able to modify all the elements of the "new" list.
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<beach>
McParen: Only if you intend to modify the cells of the list later. But pushing something to the beginning of the list does not modify it.
<McParen>
okay, thanks for the clarification.
<beach>
McParen: Sure. If later you want to do (PUSH 234 (CDDR FOO)), then you would be modifying the original list.
<paule32>
okay, i get it working: (ql:quickload :qt-libs)
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<Renfield>
If I have a variable whose contents are Lisp forms, how can I create a macro which generates a function whose body are those lisp forms from the variable?
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<beach>
,(defparameter forms '(cons 1 2) ,(defmacro foo () `(defun bar () ,forms)) ,(foo) ,(bar)
<beach>
,(defparameter forms '(cons 1 2)) ,(defmacro foo () `(defun bar () ,forms)) ,(foo) ,(bar)
<ixelp>
(defparameter forms '(cons 1 2)) => FORMS and (defmacro foo () `(defun bar () ,forms)) => FOO and (foo) => BAR finally (bar) => (1 . 2)
<beach>
Sorry.
<McParen>
why... did the last line trigger ixelp?
<beach>
I forgot a closing parenthesis in the first example.
<beach>
Otherwise, ixelp is triggered when a form starts with a comma.
<beach>
As in: ,(list 1 2 3)
<ixelp>
(list 1 2 3) => (1 2 3)
<Renfield>
Thanks, I thought I tried that. Just the backtick at the beginning and a comma before the variable. I'll play with it as obviously I'm missing something fundamental.
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<paule32>
i have the following code: " (defpackage :lispide (:use :cl :qt) (:export #:main))
<paule32>
"
<paule32>
(in-package :lispide)
<paule32>
all defun calls before (defpackage are unavailable
<beach>
No they aren't.
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<beach>
Renfield: But it's probably easier in this case to just build a DEFUN form and use EVAL on it.
<Renfield>
Oh, you are not passing the variable to the macro. I have this (setf forms '(+ 1 2)) (defmacro deferred (body) `(deffun foo () ,body))
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<Renfield>
But (deferred forms) returns variable foo unbound.
<beach>
Well, you have a typo.
<beach>
It is DEFUN and not DEFFUN.
<Renfield>
Sorry.
<beach>
It still won't work though. The macro will receive the variable FORMS unevaluated. If you macroexpand your last macro form, you will see what is going on.
<beach>
Like I said, it is probably easier to build a DEFUN form and EVAL it.
<Renfield>
I am told eval is evil.
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<anthk_>
TIL sdraw from the book on symbolic programming in CL
<beach>
Renfield: What you are doing requires EVAL in one form or the other, whether hidden in a macro or explicit.
<Renfield>
I see that it is not expanding forms. Why doesn't it do that but your example does?
<Renfield>
Why doesn't yours need eval?
<anthk_>
I made a defun for draw-cons-tree from quicklisp: (defun sdraw (lst) (draw-cons-tree:draw-tree lst))
<anthk_>
hope this doesn't fail
<beach>
Renfield: The EVAL is implicit in that the macro form evaluates the expansion.
<beach>
Renfield: The idea that EVAL is evil is a simplification. It is there when you need it.
<Renfield>
I guess I need it, then.
<beach>
Since your forms are in the form of data, you need EVAL one way or the other, whether implicit or explicit.
<beach>
Might as well make it explicit.
<beach>
Like (defun create-function (name lambda-list body) (eval `(defun ,name ,lambda-list ,@body))) or something like that.
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<dnhester26>
I can fix them if you want, just let me know if to remove them, comment them out, replace them with something else... or what to do.
<beach>
That's OK. I'll do it. It seems that for both CLASS-DIRECT-SUBCLASSES and CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES I have given them 4 methods, but there should be only one.
<beach>
So it is not just a matter of fixing the broken links.
<beach>
I can't imagine how I could have invented those methods.
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<dnhester26>
is this a good sentence to add for the &rest section: "Note that the syntax order specifies that `&rest` parameters must be written *before* the `&key` parameters." I'm not confident in writing these types of sentences because I don't have all the terminology down well, so I don't want to make mistakes
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<dnhester26>
But I do feel we need a bit more of an explanation there and examples
<dnhester26>
ok, thanks
<beach>
Well, then you would have to also write that the required comes before the optional, the optional before the key, the key before allow-other-keys, the allow-other-keys before the aux.
<beach>
And then you would have to repeat that for all (a dozen or so) lambda lists, while pointing out that &environment can appear anywhere and &whole must be first where those appear.
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<dnhester26>
how do I define the types of arguments, I for some reason thought it was ,(defun hello ((world 'string)) (format NIL "hello ~A" world)) ,(hello "beach")
<ixelp>
(defun hello ((world 'string)) (format NIL "hello ~A" world)) ERROR: While compiling HELLO : ↩ Bad lambda list : ((WORLD 'STRING)) , further (hello "beach") ERROR: Undefined function HELLO called with arguments ("beach") .
<beach>
What you are thinking of is probably methods which have specializers.
<dnhester26>
ah, it's only with defgeneric and defmethod that it works that way, right?
<dnhester26>
yeah, thanks, that's why I got confused
<beach>
In methods, you use specializers. Those are not declarations.
<beach>
(defmethod hello ((world string)) ...)
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<pfdietz>
And remember, this thing in a specializer is either a class or an EQL specializer. Types that are not classes cannot be used.
<beach>
This method is applicable only if WORLD is a string. In the DEFUN example, the declaration is a promise to the compiler. Totally different.
<dnhester26>
ok, thank you both! I am actually using a class, I just used string as an in place for a class, but I should've thought twice about the example. Thanks again!
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<beach>
But, again, the semantics of the specialized parameter in DEFMETHOD and the declaration of the parameter in DEFUN are very different.
<beach>
dnhester26: If you add a declaration in the DEFUN example, you might actually make your code less safe, because if you then pass something other than a string, the consequences are undefined.
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<paule32>
hello, who is familar with commonqt ?
<paule32>
i would "connect" a QPushButton, but i don't know how to solve it without classes
<paule32>
i tried: (connect button "clicked()" button-click)
<paule32>
but, when i click on the button, i get app crash:
<paule32>
Unhandled UNDEFINED-FUNCTION in thread #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING
<paule32>
{1001DD81D3}>:
<paule32>
The function COMMON-LISP:NIL is undefined.
<bike>
you probably need to pass CONNECT a function. right there you're calling the button-click function rather than passing it. the button-click call returns nil, which does not name a function, so it breaks.
<bike>
are you still using an AI translator thing?
<paule32>
bike: i tried chatgpt, but it is terrible
<bike>
pretty sure i said this before, but: you've been on these channels for what, like, seven years? and you're still not understanding basic function call syntax? you need to find some other learning resource, probably in your native language.
<paule32>
bike: the old school mens will be become smaller and smaller
<paule32>
no young people would like use lisp, they use c++ or python
<paule32>
the only alternative is to learn english, and follow some old insane ...
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<anthk_>
idk why people likes python, the white syntax it's maddeining
<anthk_>
and, for c++, it should have never been born, go should have been the 'natural' C successor
<beach>
paule32: It is depressing to see that you haven't even learned to use conventional code layout as you have been told oh so many times.
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<paule32>
beach: i used some other dsl, too. the style is more modern for me. you can take a look to my github account, and see some project, that have same style. i dont continuoisly use lisp. but for some hobby time, and the interesst of ai, i like lisp
<paule32>
i am not professional programmer, so all will be twisted
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<aeth>
anthk_: Python is a very good beginner language, it's just frustrating as soon as you stop being a beginner, imo. No performance, the indentation gets in the way of tool support, any cool concept you find online goes up against the one-way-to-do-it philosophy, etc.
<aeth>
Of course, in a growth industry, there's always going to be more beginners than everyone else combined, so it's probably a good niche to target.
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<aeth>
By contrast, in Common Lisp, you can do whatever you want with very few restrictions, mostly around the garbage collection (you can't just quickload a new garbage collector... it's too core to the runtime)
<aeth>
There are languages that attempt to address that one particular point, but they give up a lot for that kind of flexibility.
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<paule32>
i would go to evening lunch, i am hungry, and back in few minutes, i hold on the line, and scroll back to read your ideas with my request. but sorry i forget it: happy new year :)
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<vyrsh>
ixelp use the eval here
<vyrsh>
!eval
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<vyrsh>
!
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<vyrsh>
!help
<aeth>
,(+ 1 1)
<ixelp>
(+ 1 1) => 2
<aeth>
any ,(
<aeth>
so if it's not ,( wrap it in a progn
<aeth>
,(progn pi)
<ixelp>
(progn pi) => 3.141592653589793D0
<vyrsh>
,(+ 1 1)
<ixelp>
(+ 1 1) => 2
<aeth>
it's actually a really clever choice of character because that's just unquote
<vyrsh>
niceeee
<aeth>
as if everything else on IRC is being quasiquoted
<vyrsh>
,(ql:quickload "usocket")
<ixelp>
(ql:quickload "usocket") ERROR: There is no package named "QL" .
<aeth>
sandbox :-)
<aeth>
otherwise you'd be able to get it to connect to IRC, which seems to be the thing everyone wants to do with unsandboxed eval bots
<Lycurgus>
what actual code is it? it doesn respond to pm
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<aeth>
if you want to try to break the sandbox so nobody else can, that's probably more of a #lispcafe thing because it'd be noisy
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<Lycurgus>
not maiden based i take it
<vyrsh>
I'm reading OOP by sonya keene
<aeth>
probably doesn't support queries by design so if the sandbox is broken a bunch of people will see it
<Lycurgus>
wonder if she's still alive
<vyrsh>
I read art of MOP but it was too complex for me so Ill attemp it after this
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<Lycurgus>
sandbox?
<vyrsh>
I dont like when smart people die, its like alll that knowledge and experience lost... like when you put your computer to sleep but it loses power so your ram just loses everything
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<vyrsh>
all the electrons there in the brain but just lost thier state
<Lycurgus>
prolly not much loss in most cases
<aeth>
Lycurgus: sandbox meaning in theory you can't really escape the restricted environment it's in
<aeth>
I'm actually a bit disappointed that the bot is sandboxed because I have a utility library that makes a bunch of things much shorter, and you kind of need it to be short because it has to fit on an IRC line
<aeth>
but it's very understable
<Lycurgus>
never heard of keene after that 30 ya
<Lycurgus>
or more
<vyrsh>
30ya?
<Lycurgus>
years ago
<gilberth>
ixelp: help
<ixelp>
I fetch <TITLE> elements of URLs posted here. I also serve as a REPL bot happily evaluating Common Lisp forms when I find them. I listen to ",(" anywhere in a message or "," at the very beginning. You may also play with me in private. /query me, if you wish.
<gilberth>
Have fun!
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<aeth>
,pi
<ixelp>
pi => 3.141592653589793D0
<aeth>
ah, only at the beginning
<aeth>
so almost everything, but not everything, requires a progn if it's outside of a ,(
<gilberth>
Yes, I am paranoid about false positives.
<aeth>
right, you'd basically need to really complicate the bot a ton
<aeth>
by basically giving it a list of every global, as well as temporarily also knowing any defparameter, defvar, defconstant, etc., from earlier on the line
<aeth>
in order for it to just work
<aeth>
10x the work for edge cases
<aeth>
and even that wouldn't do ,'foo or whatever
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<aeth>
but handling all literals would false positive it on 1,000 because it would read it as the literal 000 (i.e. 0) unless you made it do " ,literal" and even that would false positive sometimes
<gilberth>
Also,people may just forget to put a space after a comma.
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<vyrsh>
is there a good book on like networking? im trying to use usocket but all the guides have so much different stuff... I get that if you want to have a server you need to start listening using socket-listen, then when a connection is made you accept the socket using socket-accept, now you can eithier send/recieve messages to this socket using socket-read and socket-write, or you can create a stream socket-stream, then you can just read and write to the
<vyrsh>
stream. am I correct? is this the best/standard way to do this?
<vyrsh>
hmm ok so what I just described is TCP
<bike>
yeah, i think it's all pretty normal socket programming stuff, not especially specific to lisp
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<Lycurgus>
doug comers 3 vol on tcp/ip
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<Lycurgus>
many others generally lang specific, e.g. twisted for python
<Shinmera>
I need to rewrite maiden (again), sigh
<Shinmera>
maybe one day
<vyrsh>
do I need to read all 3 volmes of just the 3rd volume?
<vyrsh>
Internetworking With TCP/IP Volume III: Client-Server Programming and Applications, Linux/POSIX Socket Version – 2000
<Shinmera>
It's all pretty much the same primitives. I learned TCP networking with Java and the concepts translated pretty directly
<Shinmera>
All the same underlying OS networking stack anyway
<vyrsh>
Hi shinmera
<vyrsh>
you wrote a game in common lisp right?
<Shinmera>
multiple, sure
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<anthk_>
beej has a book on C with networking which would be pretty much teh same
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<Shinmera>
I'd much rather recommend any tutorial in another safe language, since memory management and error recovery add a ton of noise otherwise.
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<josrr>
paule32: please read the answer that Bike wrote for you. Hint: (connect menu-file-exit "triggered()" #'button-click)
<paule32>
josrr: thank you, it works
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<jcowan>
aeth: Lua interns its immutable strings, but Java and JS do not.
<jcowan>
epony: "acme" no more superseded "sam" than "vi" superseded "emacs"
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<AmyMalik>
what the fuck
<AmyMalik>
somebody get epony a mental health evaluation!
<jcowan>
It would be interesting to know whether acme or sam has more users (on Plan 9) at present
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<yottabyte>
Does slime automatically clear the buffer after some number of lines, like if I'm potentially printing tens of thousands of lines for logging purposes, I don't want the buffer to get larger and larger and my computer to run out of memory or something
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<bike>
i don't think it does it automatically, but you can do slime-repl-clear-buffer (C-c M-o)
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<edgar-rft>
the only thing I can find via `M-x apropos slime-repl' is the function `slime-repl-clear-output' that deletes the output inserted since the last input.
<edgar-rft>
there's also `slime-repl-clear-buffer' that deletes the entire slime-repl-buffer and displays a new prompt
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<yottabyte>
so I have to write that into my code every so often?
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<thuna`>
yottabyte: It's a command so you can just bind it to some key in slime-repl-mode-hook
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<edgar-rft>
the "usual" solution for looking at huge files is to write a Common Lisp "print" function that prints a specific number of lines and then asks the user to press a key for printing the next chunk of lines, like the "more" and "less" shell commands
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<edgar-rft>
...there probably already exists such a thing but I just can't remember where it was
<thuna`>
If the goal is a tui, slime-repl-clear-output would be better, I guess
<yottabyte>
when I try slime-repl-clear-buffer gives me a Wrong type argument: integer-or-marker-p, nil
<yottabyte>
and it doesn't clear all of the printed output thus far
<thuna`>
yottabyte: You need to run that function in the repl buffer
<thuna`>
Or, again, *not* run it in a loop, and instead just call the command whenever the buffer is getting too full for your liking
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<yottabyte>
right
<yottabyte>
I'm just running a long running computation, and it appears my emacs will run out of memory, as it's increasing in usage. I thought it was from the buffer, but after clearing it, the memory usage has not gone dow
<yottabyte>
down*
<yottabyte>
hmmm actually maybe it did help
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