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<jcowan>
CLtL1 is 40 years old this year; ANSI CL is 30 years old.
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<hexology>
i noticed that in clozure, parse-namestring expands the user's home directory if the namestring starts with "~". is there a way to tell it not to do that?
<hexology>
ah, ty. looks like sbcl does expand it, but in a different way
<hexology>
well, it doesn't "expand" it. but it's not just treating it as "~" either.
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<gilberth>
What is annoying though is that CCL:NATIVE-TO-PATHNAME does not escape the tilde. Even when I make it do so, the printer misses it. Perhaps I'll patch that.
<gilberth>
However, when I say (pathname-directory (uiop/pathname:ensure-pathname "~/foo")) I get (:RELATIVE "~"), what's wrong with that?
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<hexology>
gilberth: that's what i'm using now
<hexology>
and to be clear, expanding the tilde is very convenient in a lot of cases. i just happened to not want it in this case
<gilberth>
Sure. What is really missing is a standard function to take a native path and turn it into a Lisp namestring or pathname. I believe UIOP tries to address that. Also the other way around: Given some pathname get a path that you can pass along to system calls or other external programs.
<gilberth>
Pathnames always were a pain to work with. For the most part because all implementation have funny corner cases in which they act funny in different ways.
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<hexology>
gilberth: i was wondering about that too, getting a string from a pathname
<hexology>
also, splitting a filesystem path into "parts" is a bit annoying
<gilberth>
For pathname -> native Lisp implementations need to have a routine somewhere. And I find UIOP:NATIVE-NAMESTRING for that.
<gilberth>
I find the documentation string a bit vague though. It says "for use by the operating system". What is meant? For use by system calls, or for use by the shell?
<gilberth>
Shell would expand ~. With DOS^WWindows '/' is a directory separator to syscalls, but not with shell commands.
<hexology>
i interpret that to mean suitable for exec() and friends
<hexology>
that doesn't seem to be what it does, but that's what i'd expect based on that doc
<gilberth>
It could have been more explicit about this.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, when I poke around, I find that CCL isn't as round-trip safe as I wished for. I'll put that on a TODO.
<beach>
gilberth: Are you maintaining CCL?
<gilberth>
beach: Not officially, but I fix bugs as I come across them.
<beach>
I see.
<gilberth>
Besides I interface a lot with foreign land and so this particular corner is better bug-free.
<beach>
Is rme still around though? I don't see him here much.
<beach>
Oh, what work are you doing that require foreign code?
<gilberth>
beach: CLIM, what else? I'm not with the NIH faction.
<beach>
Heh. I was unaware that CLIM requires much foreign code.
<gilberth>
Things have changed and even with X11 the API isn't the X protocol anymore, but some libraries.
<beach>
Yes, I understand.
<beach>
That's unfortunate.
<gilberth>
beach: Try drawing a fat line with anti-aliasing using RENDER with proper cap shape, joint shape, dashing and no overdraw. Tell me when you're finished. ;)
<beach>
I'll pass, but thanks for the offer.
<gilberth>
Well, kids believe in blittering and putting as much as possible into the client. It began with font rendering. I hear that with Wayland, you are also supposed to come up with window decoration.
<beach>
I have heard about the trend, yes.
<gilberth>
They should have put Cairo into the protocol.
<gilberth>
Instead you have that as a library and what is send to the display server is a list of triangles. All the RENDER can do besides blittering.
<beach>
And would it bee too hard to write the equivalent of Cairo in Common Lisp?
<beach>
You would still have client-side rendering, but no (or less) dependency on foreign code.
<gilberth>
You would need a blazing fast and correct implementation of polygon clipping.
<beach>
I see.
<gilberth>
But I don't see the point, when that is already implemented and others maintain Cairo. Wasted time, if you ask me.
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<gilberth>
Same goes for font rendering and proper Unicode rendering.
<beach>
Maybe it is an obsession of mine, but I constantly think in terms of a LispOS (CLOSOS) that doesn't have a C compiler.
<gilberth>
With fonts e.g. a user would expect that when they install "Acme Fantasic Medium" with their system, that a CLIM application can use that.
<beach>
On the other hand, maybe it is easier to write a C compiler that generates safe code.
<gilberth>
beach: I would go headless anyway. And then come up with a proper display server protocol.
<beach>
Right, obviously with a Lisp OS, I can't care much about what users expect.
<beach>
What do you mean by "headless" in this context?
<gilberth>
beach: One could use noffi as a starting point for a C compiler. But unless you represent C pointer as a pair of an object and an offset you won't gain much and could as well pick up assembly. WASM e.g.
<gilberth>
beach: A machine without a display attached. Thus w/o a "head".
<beach>
I am lost again, but that's not terribly surprising.
<gilberth>
Given a proper display protocol you can then use any other machine as a terminal. Like in the olde days.
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<gilberth>
The benefit is that I can browse the www and use that LispOS from the same seat e.g. A display protocol would also put all the burden of possibly hw accelerated rendering, all the font issues, etc. to others.
<beach>
Indeed. That has been your preferred solution all along as I recall.
<beach>
You have used phrases such as "putting font rendering in the server, where it belongs".
<gilberth>
Yes. See, you don't send bitmaps with HTML. Or with PDF files.
<beach>
So then, there you have your solution. Design a protocol, put the foreign code in a separate process, and use pure Lisp for CLIM.
<gilberth>
beach: I'll get there eventually. I have a prototype backend using a HTML Canvas over a Websocket for graphics. I wrote that as a test for how well it would work.
<beach>
Why am I not surprised. :)
<gilberth>
But: I also want to have display lists (aka output histories) on the display server. And I'm not there yet.
<beach>
Oh, interesting idea.
<gilberth>
That would give you local scrolling e.g.
<beach>
Yeah.
<beach>
Definitely worth thinking about a protocol.
<gilberth>
Then even a connection across the atlantic should be feasible for a mostly text-based CLIM application.
<beach>
Yes, I understand.
<beach>
So are you working on anything in Common Lisp besides CLIM?
<gilberth>
But it makes sense in a LAN too. Scrolling could happen at full frame rate. Might as well be 144fps or whatever is available today.
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<beach>
Sure.
<gilberth>
beach: That noffi. Besides CLEX needs a manual, now that I consider it finished.
* beach
Googles those things.
<gilberth>
You won't find much.
<beach>
:( So maybe a one-phrase description?
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<gilberth>
noffi is here: <https://lispcafe.org/fossil/noffi/index> It is an FFI that works more like a C compiler than a binding generator. I parse header files and you kind of mix C and Lisp. This has two benefits: (a) it works with C macros (and with static inline eventually) and (b) two hackers addressing the same foreign library can share code as there are no bindings written. Look at the examples, e.g.
<gilberth>
Anyhow CLEX can also be used as a general purpose RE matcher and fully conforms to POSIX unlike any other library you find. Or: I yet have to find a library passing all POSIX RE tests that I have.
<beach>
Very ambitious work.
<gilberth>
Code is compiled to DFAs. And that is the noval thing, as for submatch addressing nobody else has figured out yet how to do w/o an NFA.
<beach>
You mean without some huge blowup in size?
<gilberth>
beach: I am talking about deterministic versus non-determistic. I match an input of size n in O(n). An NFA cannot do that. It would be in O(exp) instead.
<gilberth>
And about submatch addressing.
<gilberth>
With that you cannot simply compute the superset automaton of your NFA and call it a DFA.
<beach>
I see.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, it's all with that draft I sent you once. And hayley did an implementation of my algorithm too.
<beach>
Great work, it seems! Congratulations!
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<gilberth>
I would need a manual.
<beach>
I am not going to write it for you. I am busy with other stuff.
<beach>
But I could proofread it if you write it.
<beach>
gilberth: To get back to Common Lisp, are you aware of the WSCL project that I started?
<gilberth>
I just can't write. That's my weak spot.
<beach>
Hmm, I see.
<gilberth>
beach: Yes, but I'm not following it.
<beach>
OK. Just checking.
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<gilberth>
Writing is like hacking. When I start at one place, too many other things come to mind and I have a hard time staying on-topic.
<beach>
But that's fine. I am like that too, but it is always possible to organize after the fact.
<beach>
Proofreaders can help you fix it up, as long as the relevant information is there.
<gilberth>
I mean, I believe I can get sentences out straight. It's rather that I either write too little, too much, or too confused. Besides, I don't enjoy writing.
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<beach>
Yes, I see.
<beach>
Occasionally, we (or at least some of us) must do things we don't enjoy.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, this CLEX is useful. And it's pretty fast. I'm tired of handwriting parsers. CLEX can do the lexing. And I have a brushed up version of that old lalr.cl that you find with AI repo. For parsing C I made it a backtracking LALR(1) parser, and that works very well, given that C is context senstive.
<beach>
On the other hand, you probably deserve working with stuff you enjoy.
<gilberth>
noffi is an attempt to solve FFI once and for all. It's a great productivity boost when you can just say #_{#include <libacme.h>} and that's all you need to play with libacme. Relevant for those that must or want to address foreign code.
<beach>
I can see that.
<beach>
And I think I can see how all those projects fit together.
<gilberth>
beach: And, yes, I'm "out". I don't work and rather hack what I feel like hacking. Also I don't feel like founding for the foreseeable future. But never say "never".
<beach>
For CLIM, you need FFI. For FFI you want something better, so NOFFI. For NOFFI you probably need a C compiler. For a C compiler you need a fast lexer and a fast parser.
<gilberth>
beach: Yes like that. But it began with "For a web browser, I need a toolkit, so ..."
<beach>
I see.
<gilberth>
But that first will never happen.
<beach>
Would that be Closure?
<gilberth>
Closure prompted me to implement CLIM in the first place, yes.
<beach>
Right.
<gilberth>
I mean, I began greenspuning half of CLIM, so I went for the real thing instead.
<gilberth>
Stuck there.
<beach>
Do you remember when you merged the two CLIM projects? I was interested in CLIM because I needed a GUI toolkit for Gsharp.
<beach>
Maybe 2000 or 2001 or something like that?
<gilberth>
I do. What I remember too was the looks of your bystanding students, when you sat me in front of a French keyboard and said "Don't worry, it's an US ASCII keymap" and I said "Great!" and started typing.
<beach>
Heh.
<beach>
I still work like that myself. It is often impossible to get a different keyboard here.
<gilberth>
Same here.
<gilberth>
I switched to US-ASCII the moment I got a copy of Turbo C. Impossible to type { } on a German keyboard.
<beach>
I understand. When I started using 3 languages on a daily basis, I had to figure something out, so it is US + input methods.
<beach>
4 with my Vietnamese I guess. That's even worse.
<gilberth>
It's rare that I actually type German.
<beach>
Oh wow!
<beach>
I just finished two emails to my brother in Swedish. Don't you communicate with friends and family?
<gilberth>
There is not much family to communicate with. With my cousin I share the root, leaves the other three and we either see or call each other. And then there is my wife. Same.
<beach>
Makes sense.
<gilberth>
I'm not employed, so I rarely need to write business related mail.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
Do you still have the company, or *a* company?
<gilberth>
I can't do without owning a company. But that company that I founded I don't own anymore. But I own that other company that does electrical installation work and some such.
<beach>
Hmm, OK.
<gilberth>
Recently we installed a ton of solar panels.
<beach>
Nice!
<gilberth>
It would have been nicer, when we would find anyone to employ.
<gilberth>
Or hire.
<beach>
Lots of companies have that problem it seems.
<gilberth>
All of them. Boomers leave the job market. And then there is that academic inflation as well.
<beach>
Yep, and young people who don't buy the importance of working, which I fully understand.
<gilberth>
The trouble is that once people retire, they don't stop consuming. So the proportion of people working to people not working gets lower and lower. And this is only the beginning.
<beach>
I know. :(
<gilberth>
beach: Well, there are twice as much of your generation than of my generation.
<beach>
Hmm.
<gilberth>
* as of my ;I guess
<beach>
Anyway, we should probably get back to Common Lisp, or else we will be kicked.
<gilberth>
This is why I usually hide elsewhere.
<beach>
To avoid being kicked? :)
<beach>
I think your input to Common Lisp is valuable.
<gilberth>
I can't be kicked off #lispcafe. Someone made me op even :-)
<beach>
You have some interesting observations about the standard.
<beach>
I don't think any of us two would be kicked from here actually.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, I'm the infrastructure person. And CLEX, noffi, as well as another CLIM, once I get it out the door, are building blocks.
<beach>
You resemble scymtym in that respect.
<beach>
He prefers to work on components of the infrastructure.
<gilberth>
beach: I have been asked more than once to keep on-topic here. I notoriously cannot keep on-topic, so I lurk.
<beach>
Sorry, entirely my fault.
<cmack>
gilberth: have you worked wayland support into your CLIM?
<gilberth>
Oh, and Nova-Spec is infrastructure as well.
<beach>
Yes, very nice work.
<beach>
I think I once called you the "great recycler".
<gilberth>
cmack: I don't care for that blitterer. But given how my CLIM is structured, I am pretty confident that a port should be fairly easy. I mean, Cairo works for it, and GTK as well.
<beach>
gilberth: Are you in charge of ixelp? Perhaps it could be an alternative to specbot or Colleen for looking things up, and then it could use the Nova Spec instead.
<beach>
Oh, minion and specbot are back? I missed that.
<gilberth>
cmack: Thing is: I don't use Wayland at all myself. I'm on a mac. And thus have a Cocoa backend and an X11 backend. I use Linux as well, but that Linux is headless and talks to XQuartz.
<beach>
minion: Are you a bot?
<minion>
i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
<gilberth>
beach: I am.
<cmack>
gilberth: I see and agree -- macOS support is a hinderance with wayland
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<gilberth>
cmack: But I test with XWayland once in a while. I have a handful of Linux distros in VMs for testing.
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<prxq>
happy new year
<prxq>
is there any graphical debugging for common lisp? Like with stepping and seeing variable values when hovering over the text...
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<madnificent>
prxq: I thought there was a slime stepper but I never got used to it. Perhaps I did not dive deep enough. My duct tape solution is adding break (often with a helper macro). Sly has stickers which solve a slightly different use-case but they're often better suited than stepping.
<prxq>
you are right that looks more useful than old-school stepping :-)
<madnificent>
prxq: I vaguely remember arriving at lisp long ago and asking for a stepper. It created a long argument as to why that was much harder in lisp and that you did not need it. After all this time, I'd still like a stepper that interactively does the magic to jump to the right spot. Might be hard or impossible, would be nice.
<madnificent>
prxq: replaying sly stickers and the sly stepper are two different things seemingly built on the same basis.
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<paulapatience>
gilberth: Would you be interested in having testers for noffi (i.e., me)? I could make good use of it.
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<beach>
prxq: If you read my paper on debugging, you will see that the current state of debugging in free Common Lisp implementations is not great.
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<dnhester26>
HI everyone
<dnhester26>
In the spec it states that a lambda list with a &key argument without a symbol is equivalent to the one with the symbol version of the string of the argument; that is to say `(&key hello)` and `(&key :hello hello)` are equivalent
<ixelp>
3.4 Lambda Lists | Common Lisp (New) Language Reference
<dnhester26>
Is there a style or preference over explicitly specifying the symbol or leaving it implicit?
<dnhester26>
Does it affect code completion in emacs maybe?
<madnificent>
dnhester26: I've mostly seen `&key foo bar` unless there's a specific need to override the defaults.
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<bike>
it would actually be (&key ((:hello hello)))
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<beach>
dnhester26: it is usually left implicit unless there are good reasons not to.
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<bike>
the usual style is leaving it implicit. it's very rare to have it explicitly specified, and pointless if it's just the default symbol
<dnhester26>
thanks bike beach
<dnhester26>
I was thinking of leaving it implicit and started feeling guilty.. maybe from java days
<beach>
Heh.
<duuqnd>
honestly I didn't even know you could specify it explicitly
<beach>
There are conventions like that, that develop as tacit agreements over time, and there is often no reason for or against.
<dnhester26>
why is there a need for parentheses and then why two pairs? Is that style? From the spec I read that it expects an even number of elements after the `&key` keyword, or maybe it's. a list of even number of elements?
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<beach>
It is only one pair actually. The keyword parameter is a single object, so it can have an initarg and a supplied-p as in &key (hello nil hello-p) (goodbye 234 goodbye-p)
<beach>
But then, if you specify the keyword, you need to turn the parameter into a list.
<beach>
As in ((:hello hello) nil hello-p)
<dnhester26>
thanks for that explanation
<beach>
Pleasure.
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<dnhester26>
what is a supplied-p? I just read in the glossary that it's just a logical evaluation of if the argument is defined as anything besides NIL then T otherwise undefined and NIL are NIL. But what is it for?
<dnhester26>
in the hello-p
<dnhester26>
The docs said to read 3.4.1 ordinary lambda lists but I didn't get very far from there
<madnificent>
dnhester26: sometimes you may want to know if the keyword was supplied or not.
<dnhester26>
thanks for the answer. But isn't that the same as just evaluating (if argument) what benefit is there to defining a new (if argument-p)?
<madnificent>
dnhester26: perhaps to pass it along to another function (though you could combine with &args for that in many cases)
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<dnhester26>
beach: meaning anything that's supplied even if it's NIL so that would be the difference between (if argument) and (if argument-p), they would only diverge if argument was supplied as NIL
<dnhester26>
thanks I think I got it from the example
<beach>
Good.
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<dnhester26>
beach: is that true though? my last sentence before the "thanks"
<beach>
I think so, yes.
<dnhester26>
thanks, just wanted to make sure I actually understood and not think I understood when I really didn't
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<beach>
If there is no semantic difference between supplying NIL and supplying nothing, there is no particular reason for the supplied-p.
<beach>
But (related to what I am working on now) if you reinitialize a class, and you supply NIL as the direct superclasses, that's different from not supplying any superclasses at all. In the latter case, the old list of superclasses remains intact.
<dnhester26>
the syntax `&key (name init-value name-p)` is really a shortcut CL is giving us instead of having to provide an object with make-instance and define the arguments with keys. Is that correct?
<beach>
No, not at all. It is just a way to optionally supply an argument to a function.
<dnhester26>
what is the old list of superclasses? is there a default object class? (I've yet to read the spec/book, I've been just using generics/methods without diving deep into the details with a bit of OO background from java)
<beach>
Oh, that was an unnecessarily complicated example.
<beach>
You can't compare it to most languages, because in most languages you can't change an object after creation.
<beach>
Let me find a simpler example for you.
<dnhester26>
"The keyword parameter is a single object, so it can have an initarg and a supplied-p" since you said object and initarg I thought it was a CLOS object a macro defining it...
<madnificent>
dnhester26: the difference with traditional languages is that you can redefine classes in lisp. whether you supply a value or supply nil can mean different things. ignore it for the rest, but super interesting!!!!
<beach>
dnhester26: Any Lisp datum is an object.
<dnhester26>
beach: that was enough of an explanation, I got it
<beach>
dnhester26: See the glossary under "object".
<madnificent>
s/traditional/mainstream/
<dnhester26>
madnificent: got it, thanks!
<dnhester26>
beach: will do
<beach>
I can't find a simple example. Sorry.
<dnhester26>
beach: no worries, I understood it from the explanation already
<dnhester26>
ok I guess I have read a bit more than what I said
<madnificent>
When you have a bunch of arguments and conditionally want to forward them to another function when they're explicitly set, then you'd want to know _if_ they were set.
<madnificent>
It might also be handy for error conditions. A lookup data structure could signal an error when a key is not found, unless a default is supplied. A sensible default could be nil. Calling (lookup unavailable-key lookup-table) would error out, and (lookup unavailable-key lookup-table :default nil) could yield nil instead.
<dnhester26>
madnificent thanks
<beach>
dnhester26: Yes, any object is an instance of some class: ,(class-of 234)
<aeth>
A fourth class, but only sometimes. It is in SBCL, but not in the CCL the bot uses, as we can see.
<beach>
Sure, and FIXNUM is not necessarily a class as in my previous example.
<beach>
The standard allows considerable freedom for implementations.
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<beach>
What would be the fourth class?
<aeth>
SBCL calls it #<SB-PCL::CONDITION-CLASS COMMON-LISP:ERROR>
<beach>
Oh, I see.
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<tmtt>
Hi! Is there a way to convert a symbol to a keyword in common lisp? (I'm making a macro that take some symbols and pass them to a function that takes keywords as parameters, e.g. `(mymacro GET)` should give `(somefunction :method :GET)`)
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<clos-encounters>
Anybody happen to know why, seemingly all of a sudden, asdf is rewriting the names of dependencies to replace `/` with `--` ?
<clos-encounters>
(strong emphasis on "seemingly")
<bike>
rewriting the names? like, what, in the files?
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<clos-encounters>
Na like during system loading. I go to load a system `foo/bar` and I get an error that system `foo--bar` cannot be found.
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<clos-encounters>
Mostly I wondered if anybody has encountered anything even remotely like this -- I certainly haven't
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<bike>
nope, that's news to me. asdf has been encouraging / names for a while, so it would be pretty mercurial to suddenly not want it
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<clos-encounters>
thanks for the thoughts anyway. I think it has something to do with a very peculiar emacs/slime configuration and/or cacheing context. I've just succesfully loaded the offending system outside of slime without issue.
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<yottabyte>
I don't use in-package typically, should I be? but I ask because if I don't use it, what's the default package I'm in? cl-user? that being said, when I ql:quickload something, how can I call of the functions/etc. directly without having to prefix them?
<yottabyte>
I think it'll tell me if it's overwriting something that's already in my current default package (I am confident for this one there's no overlap though)
<bike>
when you start up lisp you'll be in cl-user.
<aeth>
Yes, if you don't use packages, you're probably using cl-user, I'm guessing, but you don't have to guess because you can just try printing the global *package*
<bike>
you should use in-package if you'd like your code to be usable by other people or yourself without having to worry about name conflicts
<aeth>
name conflicts are surprisingly easy... you can't even USE both alexandria and uiop, the two most common utility libraries, without name conflicts
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<aeth>
you can avoid name conflicts with a hyphen prefix... but at that point make the hyphen a colon and it's now a package (if you define the package first... and technically :: unless you export it... but that's getting into technicalities).
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<yottabyte>
yup, I'm in package common-lisp-user
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<yottabyte>
does a new package inherit everything from cl-user?
<yottabyte>
hmmm it appears not to
<yitzi>
yottabyte: what is inherited in new packages is implementation dependent. Some import CL.