<aeth>
check-type will always check at runtime, while declare may be ignored or (with (safety 0) on SBCL and perhaps elsewhere) assumed so which one you want depends on what you're doing
<aeth>
(let ((x y)) (check-type x the-type))
<Renfield>
Yes, I'm looking to provide compile-time type information. Thanks.
<aeth>
CHECK-TYPE allows the compiler to infer it, while DECLARE exposes it to introspect-environment so various inlining-related libraries may be able to use that information (they can't use the compiler-specific inference). https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
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<NotThatRPG>
jcowan: I have chosen to support CCL because it has always seemed to me to be the second most popular free CL, and because it is generally of high quality.
<jcowan>
Thanks. ECL also seems popular, and I'm surprised you don't mention it.
<NotThatRPG>
I have not supported ECL much because I have found that the code it generates is not efficient enough. The tests for the SHOP3 planner (https://github.com/shop-planner/shop3) for example, are simply infeasible on ECL. I'm not sure if it's failure to optimize or poor performance of the GC, but it does not stand up to a memory hungry program.
<jcowan>
Ah.
<aeth>
SBCL and CCL should cover quite a lot because CCL behaves a bit differently in SBCL in how it reads the spec, e.g. requiring a few more EVAL-WHENs in places, and even requiring a few type COERCEs where SBCL doesn't, iirc
<NotThatRPG>
I feel the same way about ABCL. ABCL has a valuable use case for me if I need to control a Java library (fortunately I rarely need to do this) -- I find it a very comfortable way to explore my way around a large library.
<aeth>
ECL should in theory be the third to support (the commercial ones don't really live on IRC, or even in the Quicklisp ecosystem, afaik), but, yes, it's slow (and it has a very slow compilation process, too!)
<NotThatRPG>
I have spoken to people who like ECL for its ease of use in being invoked from C and C++, but I'd rather run my CL processes as servers for cases like that.
<aeth>
I find ABCL not easy to support because of the JVM making it behave oddly in places... at least ECL in theory can be improved, and may have value on e.g. compiling to wasm in the long run
<NotThatRPG>
I'm not very conversant with LW (although I see that some people really like it). I have always loved Allegro for its debugger, which is, IMO best in class.
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<NotThatRPG>
TBH, I don't know whether the JVM has finally gotten around to permitting tail call optimization or not.
<aeth>
there's a bunch of weird edge cases in ABCL because of the JVM, not just that.
<aeth>
though the current state of ABCL on this seems to be improved. https://portability.cl/
<ixelp>
Common Lisp Portability Library Status
<aeth>
still no static-vectors, perhaps because nobody would want to CFFI from ABCL
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<jcowan>
yes, you'd want to JFFI
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<anthk_>
which is faster, clisp or sbcl?
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<bike>
sbcl generally generates faster code. i think clisp starts up faster, though.
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<aeth>
afaik it's basically SBCL > CCL > everything else > CLISP in terms of speed, but that's assuming compilation is cached into FASLs (running it at least once)... compilation speed will generally slow to improve runtime speed, although ECL both takes the longest to compile and isn't that fast because it uses C (so I guess the C compiler is wasting time on optimizations that won't apply to the very
<aeth>
unidiomatic generated C? idk)
<edgar-rft>
sbcl has fewer letters, so it's faster to read
<aeth>
and, yeah, a heavier runtime will also take longer to startup
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<NotThatRPG>
My concern about clisp is its somewhat chaotic project management. They haven't managed to make a release in more than a decade IIRC
<NotThatRPG>
(Primary concern for ASDF -- I have no idea what state of clisp I should test against)
<yitzi>
On arch I build and test against master for clisp. But if something breaks its probably not going to get fixed.
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<NotThatRPG>
yitzi: Right, but on different linux distros, Mac, and windows, I have no way to guess what's going on. So I just keep testing on ... I think it's 2.49 ... and hoping
<NotThatRPG>
My concern is mostly for people who just install it from a package manager. If anyone asks, though, I always suggest they use SBCL instead
<yitzi>
I feel for you, but to be honest while CCL appears to be in "maintaince" state, clisp has passed that and is bordering on "unmaintained" as far as I am concerned.
<Odin-LAP>
Not even 'bordering'.
<yitzi>
I was being generous.
<Odin-LAP>
Fair enough.
<aeth>
package managers usually just grab a random git version for clisp
<aeth>
fedora 38 just uses clisp-2.49.93-30.20230212git79cbafd.fc38.x86_64
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<NotThatRPG>
aeth: I recall reading that there's something about clisp that makes it difficult to make a release, but honestly, I have no idea what that is.
<aeth>
spaghetti code?
<aeth>
technical debt?
<aeth>
depending on a library that's now outdated? (but it does get packaged for distros...)
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<NotThatRPG>
I thought it was something organizational. Maybe something to do with FSF? Or just no one wanting to take responsibility? No idea
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<aeth>
not enough tests so they don't know if it's broken?
<aeth>
they seem to have a decent amount of test files
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<coat>
can someone help me with this?
<coat>
(let ((cell (cons "a" (list 30 40 10 20)))) (sort (cdr cell) (lambda (x y) (< x y))) (format t "~a~%" cell)) --> (a 30 40)
<coat>
why do I lose two integers after the sort?
<bike>
SORT is destructive, meaning it's allowed to manipulate the structure of the sequence you give it
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<bike>
the sorted list is returned by SORT. you should be using that.
<coat>
bike: oh! thanks. I totally misunderstood "destructive". somehow in my mind I thought "destructive" means "in-place" sort meaning it would mutate my list.
<coat>
but it is not just mutating list. it is really destructive!
<bike>
yep.
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