<ixelp>
GitHub - Fanael/rainbow-identifiers: Rainbow identifier highlighting for Emacs
<yottabyte>
I wanted to try the other one to see if it had better contrast out the gate
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<olnw>
yottabyte: From looking at the code and README, it does not seem like this package supports lisp-mode. However I don't think it should be too hard to write integration for SLIME/Sly.
<yottabyte>
Interesting!
<yottabyte>
It's funny you bring up Sly, I just heard about it, I've been using SLIME, what do you recommend?
<olnw>
I can't comment on that because I have never used SLIME extensively. Sly does have some nice features such as Stickers, though <https://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Stickers>.
<ixelp>
SLY User Manual, version 1.0.42
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<ym>
M-. works fine for everybody?
<ym>
Or maybe it's better to ask in #emacs...
<aeth>
M-. broke for me for like a year or two but then randomly fixed itself again
<ym>
Ok, got it, thanks.
<aeth>
just in time for github search to stop working (-:
<aeth>
so now I'm just doing M-. on library files to get to the source locally
<olnw>
ym: M-. may be bound to different functions depending on the major mode. In Elisp buffers it should be xref-find-definitions, which uses xref-backend-functions to look up the identifier at point. If that hook is empty, or is missing a function, then it would explain why M-. is not working.
<olnw>
SLY re-binds M-. to sly-edit-definition. I don't know about SLIME.
<ym>
I bet it's debian stable emacs issue.
<aeth>
I assume the problem is the interaction of a bunch of packages, in particular ones modifying... I guess slime, if it's slime
<ym>
Because only Emacs changed in my case.
<aeth>
so I uninstalled a lot of packages when my M-. broke but it didn't work, it just eventually fixed itself
<aeth>
could just be debian being behind the curve
<aeth>
which emacs version?
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<ym>
GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.37, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2023-05-14, modified by Debian
<ym>
It's freshly installed Debian stable.
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<olnw>
Are you using SLIME? Do you have an active connection?
<ym>
Yep.
<olnw>
Can you verify that M-. is bound to slime-edit-definition?
<ym>
It is bound to M-., <menu-bar> <slime> <Edit Definition...>.
<ym>
(slime-edit-definition &optional NAME WHERE)
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<ym>
So it's function of slime.
<ym>
Surprisingly for me.
<ym>
I thought I used it with C.
<olnw>
SLIME binds it to that. Normally M-. is bound to xref-find-definitions, which supports different backends such as etags and eglot, allowing it to work with multiple major modes.
<ym>
Oh.
<ym>
Ok, M-. works with slime's source.
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<aeth>
yes, the advantage of going through slime is that it usually knows where the definition is... not always... sometimes the macro is too fancy
<moon-child>
the computing environment know where the definition is. it knows this because it knows where it isn't~
<hayley>
By subtracting where it isn't from where it is, or where it is from where it isn't, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference or deviation.
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<madnificent>
hayley: Are you still around? We encountered (a reproducable) issue with the Luckless hash table and were wondering if this was likely fixed through your commits or if it's likely the heuristic not making it popping up.
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<hayley>
madnificent: What's happening?
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<hayley>
I did some changes, but I'm not sure any should change functionality, and ~2.5 years later they're questionably good performance hacks.
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<myclm__>
hello, one question regarding practical common lisp. peter seibl uses later in the projects classes (e.g. in the database, to create the columns) is this then still considered functional programming or would this then already swap over into object oriented programming?
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<bike>
"later"?
<hayley>
The distinction isn't that clear, nor are those disjoint options.
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<aeth>
as a rule of thumb, look for a SETF or INCF to see if it's functional programming or not
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<Josh_2>
Hi hi :sunglasses:
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<beach>
myclm__: Modern Common Lisp code uses the object system (CLOS) a lot. There is not much emphasis on function programming in Common Lisp.
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<myclm__>
i meant later as in not the beginning of the book but in the chapters 26, 27, 28 etc. so relatively at the end of the book
<myclm__>
alright i will check then for the setf and incf, thank you!
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<beach>
myclm__: Why would you do that? Are you saying you want to practice functional programming in Common Lisp?
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<myclm__>
well yes i want to learn functional programming, that is why i took a module at my uni and now i make a project in common lisp all of this is under the module name functional programming
<myclm__>
i was under the impression, that cl=functional programming, a misconception that i now do not have anymore, however i still, or even more now, struggle to understand how to exactly distinguish funcprog from oop
<hayley>
Universities as a rule of thumb suck at teaching Common Lisp (no offense intended to the non-sucky ones).
<myclm__>
funny for a language that is largely considered academic :D
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<beach>
myclm__: Oh wow!
<hayley>
As a rule of your other thumb you will have difficulty in finding definitions of "object oriented programming" and "functional programming" that other people share.
<hayley>
myclm__: Case and point.
<beach>
myclm__: Common Lisp is a very industrial language in my opinion. Academia would be more into pure function languages like ML and Haskell.
<hayley>
s/and/in/
<hayley>
beach: There's many industrial users of ML. For example, Jane Street, Jane Street and also Jane Street.
<beach>
hayley: Did I say the contrary?
<myclm__>
hm well idk i am now on the lisp train and i really also want to learn it privately :) so i will go on
<beach>
myclm__: Functional programming is pretty much defined as programming without side effects and instead based on applying functions to compute objects from other objects.
<hayley>
beach: I got the impression you thought as much by distinguishing between industrial and academic languages.
<hayley>
(I don't remember if stylewarning is using Coalton in production yet.)
<beach>
hayley: I said Common Lisp is industrial and I said academia prefers ML and Haskell, but I didn't say anything about industry and ML and Haskell.
<hayley>
Okay. Never mind my statement then.
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<hayley>
It appears the university I briefly attended in 2020 dropped any mention of teaching LISP [sic] and PROLOG [sic] in the description of the AI course in 2024.
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<myclm__>
but what exactly is meant by saying it has no side effects?
<hayley>
I'm undecided on if the bullshit asymmetry principle means that bad Lisp education is worse than no education, but I am unqualified to decide that.
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<hayley>
It means that there is no non-local change in state. A pure function does not modify its arguments or any other objects, nor does it access the outside world in any way.
<beach>
myclm__: A side effect is something that changes the state of the environment, like updating a variable or a slot in an object.
<Josh_2>
CL can be written like that
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<beach>
Josh_2: Did we say the contrary?
<hayley>
(There is a case that modifying objects which no other code can possibly observe is still pure; Haskell makes this explicit with the runST function.)
<Josh_2>
No, did I say you did
<beach>
No, but I wanted to check.
<beach>
myclm__: You will often find a functional programming style in Common Lisp macro definitions.
<Josh_2>
:thumbsup: /quit
<Josh_2>
oops
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<edgar-rft>
myclm__: What I personally like best on Common Lisp is that the language itself doesn't force me to use a specific programming paradigm. I can mix imperative, functional, OOP and whatever programming style I want in the same program.
<edgar-rft>
Whether mixing up everything makes sense is a different question but Common Lisp allows me to do that, so that I can always choose the programming style that fits best to my problem.
<myclm__>
ah okok yes that makes sense :) thanks!
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<Josh_2>
hnng
<Josh_2>
The archive file "zpb-ttf-c8fca642f4c39607264a79cbbe34b91e1d470a03.tgz" for "zpb-ttf" is the wrong size: expected 55,410, got 55,413 [Condition of type QL-DIST:BADLY-SIZED-LOCAL-ARCHIVE] when updating quicklisp dists
<Josh_2>
This is Shinmera dist, has anyone else had this problem?
<Shinmera>
have you tried redownloading?
<Josh_2>
I tried
<Shinmera>
hmmm
<Josh_2>
Yep
<Shinmera>
guess my redist library is broken or something \o/
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<Shinmera>
I'm afraid I don't have any quick fix
<Josh_2>
Not a problem :thumbsup: I can skip
<Shinmera>
it's odd that it would be off. hrm.
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<iska>
besides syntax, what's the difference between LET and PROGV?
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<bike>
progv only does special bindings, and it works on computed symbols instead of static.
<bike>
also you can use progv to make variables have no value, which you can't do with let.
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<iska>
computed symbols, so it's useful for macros?
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<Josh_2>
You can use progv to create special bindings at runtime
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<bike>
in a macro you can just expand into let.
<bike>
progv lets you compute the symbols at runtime. it is very occasionally useful since most of the time you don't really need to do that. i've only used it when writing interpreters, which is what the description says if i remember correctly.
<beach>
iska: What bike means about "computed symbols" is that they are not necessarily physically present in the source code, but can be the result of some arbitrary computation.
<iska>
ahhh
<iska>
what's about special symbols though? is there a difference between that and doing a (declare (special var)) inside a let body?
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<bike>
I don't think you're quite understanding.
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<bike>
You can do, like, (progv (list (read)) (list nil) whatever-code) and bind a symbol read in at runtime to nil.
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<beach>
iska: Such a declaration will make the variable special, just like with PROGV, sure.
<bike>
this is not something you can do with let. the variables bound by a let are part of the source code.
<iska>
ahhhh
<iska>
thank you :)
<beach>
bike: I never understood that reference until I just now gave it some more thought.
<beach>
... the one about writing interpreters, I mean.
<bike>
(where the aspect argument is a variable name)
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<beach>
Right. It was the "embedded in Lisp" that made me not understand.
<beach>
But if you write an interpreter for Common Lisp in the system in which it must run, then I see it.
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<iska>
a common lisp interpreter written in common lisp, that made me chuckle
<beach>
Why?
<beach>
That would be quite normal.
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<iska>
it sounds like eval with extra steps, but I bet you can use it as a compilation target for other languages
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<beach>
"extra steps"?
<beach>
Eval can be implemented as an interpreter. Or as a compiler.
<beach>
In fact, SBCL gives you a choice. The default is the latter.
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<bike>
the embedded part is important. if you're interpreting something that has special bindings, but the special bindings are totally separate from host lisp bindings, you don't need any progv
<kevingal_>
Has anyone worked on video encoding with CL? I was thinking of making a wrapper for a video encoding library, don't wanna duplicate someone else's efforts.
<bike>
that's actually what the m:progv thing does in maclina. if it's the "native" client it uses cl:progv. if it's the "cross" client it doesn't, and instead just sets up a dynamic environment structure
<Josh_2>
kevingal_: Yes
<Josh_2>
Using ffmpeg
<Josh_2>
But I use uiop:run-program to call ffmpeg
<Josh_2>
Rather than an FFI
<kevingal_>
That's the other approach I was thinking of, do you pipe your video data to ffmpeg?
<kevingal_>
Would you mind sharing your program, if it's available?
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<Josh_2>
I've used that to convert thousands of videos into different formats... and back :(
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<kevingal_>
Cool, thanks Josh_2!
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<Josh_2>
Need more widespread support for av1 :(
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<Josh_2>
I am trying to quickload 40ants-doc-full and I'm getting package-locked-error for serapeum
<Josh_2>
*ignores all*
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<Josh_2>
Well I'm sure that wont be a problem in the future :joy:
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<lispmacs[work]>
Hi. So, studying the spec, I figured out that I can make a pane that is a subclass of clim-stream-pane, with the idea of having that be the pane that processes characters inputted by the user. And I see the input stream functions available like stream-read-char. A part I'm still fuzzy on is where I would call stream-read-char from. My understanding is that I don't need to re-implement handle-event because clim-strea
<lispmacs[work]>
m-pane provides that already. Would I call it from some kind of application or pane updating loop, or...?
<beach>
Maybe ask in #clim?
<lispmacs[work]>
oh, drat, thought I was in #clim
<lispmacs[work]>
copy and paste complete
<lispmacs[work]>
or, yank or whatever it is called
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<srji>
is there a special trick to load bt2 for sbcl-2.3.11 ?
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<jmercouris>
are there any deterministic Lisp compilers?
<jmercouris>
or do I have to always manipulate the environment by faking the time, etc
<jmercouris>
in other words, if I were to save a Lisp image twice on one machine, with the same compiler, would the bits ever be the same?
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<Inline>
no
<Inline>
if you want the bits to be the same you'd have to just copy the image
<Inline>
even in that case it won't 100% the same
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<mfiano>
Actually it's not defined by the standard. An implementation may be deterministic, or at least I'm not aware of anything preventing such, but typically saving an image is just dumping the heap memory to disk with a small segment to load it.
<mfiano>
So, it depends on your OS, too.
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