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<epony>
"sam" the friendly non-standard non-UNIX editor from plan9 from userspace.. superceded by 'acme' the friendlier more editorial IDE.. from plan9port from userspace
<epony>
let's call the Pike languages Algol Pee
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<BrokenCog>
I put (setq *exit-on-eof* t) in ~/.sbclrc ... but it doesn't like setq being used. How do I set values in the rc file??
<BrokenCog>
... mmm, I guess it's actually the variable it does'nt like.
<BrokenCog>
the User Manual likes it though.
<BrokenCog>
also, can I put the --noinform option and CL arguments in the RC file somehow??
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<anthk_>
(defparameter instead of setq?
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<hayley>
)
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<aeth>
but I forgot to close a parenthesis a while back so )
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<BrokenCog>
yeah, defparameter fixes the undeclared warning, but, it doesn't seem to do anything.
<edgar-rft>
where only BrokenCog can say if that's true...
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<BrokenCog>
beach: I got it from sbcl.org/manual/
<beach>
BrokenCog: The variable you are trying to refer to is in the package SB-ACLREPL, and that package exists only after you do a (REQUIRE 'SB-ACLREPL). Furthermore, if you do (DEFPARAMETER *EXIT-ON-EOF* T) in your .sbclrc, then you are creating a different variable in a different package, namely COMMON-LISP-USER.
<BrokenCog>
I think it migth be deprecated. sbcl exits with C-d ... so it seems to know EOF without the flag. But, I wasn't actually trying to use that variable just trying to figure out how to configure values within ~/.sbclrc
<BrokenCog>
specifically, I was trying to have noinform set true without needing the CL flag.
<BrokenCog>
okay. I wasn't including aclrepl.
<BrokenCog>
actually no. I was!
<beach>
That is not what you said.
<BrokenCog>
what?
<beach>
You said (DEFPARAMETER *EXIT-ON-EOF* T). That does not mention the SB-ACLREPL package.
<BrokenCog>
after (require 'sb-aclrepl) ... I should use (seqt *exit-on-eof*), yes?
<beach>
Oh, and you should *not* use DEFPARAMETER, because the variable has already been defined, so using SETQ (or rather SETF) is right.
<beach>
No,...
<beach>
I am telling you that (setq *exit-on-eof* t) will set a variable whose name is common-lisp-user:*exit-on-eof*, and not sb-aclrepl:*exit-on-eof* which is what you want.
<BrokenCog>
ah right. for the package.
<beach>
The reason you got a warning in the first place was that you were trying assign to (using SETQ) a variable that has not been defined, namely common-lisp-user:*exit-on-eof*.
<beach>
And by using DEFPARAMETER instead, you defined it.
<BrokenCog>
yes.
<beach>
But what you really want is to assign to (using SETQ or SETF) the variable sb-aclrepl:*exit-on-eof*.
<BrokenCog>
got it.
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<BrokenCog>
I'm trying to figure out when to use defparameter, vs defvar. When would one ever defparameter a variable after already having defined it? rather than setq? I understand that defvar doesn't change the existing value, which seems a reasonable; even though it's as much of a potential error as changing the existing value with the value. It begs the question, why isn't defvar/defparameter on an
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<BrokenCog>
existing dynamically-scoped variable an error? or warning at least?
<beach>
BrokenCog: During development, when you load a file a second time, perhaps after some small modification, your forms are evaluated again, so if you have a DEFPARAMETER in that file, it will be executed again, and the value of the variable will change.
<BrokenCog>
in which case wouldn't the previous usage of the variable now be confused about what the value is?
<beach>
BrokenCog: So if you don't want to do DEFPARAMETER a second time, and instead do a SETQ (or SETF), then you would have to modify the file after the first time you have loaded it. Then, when you start a new Common Lisp image, you would have to modify it back so that you can load it the first time.
<beach>
There is no confusion. If you want the variable to take on whatever value you give it in your file, even after the file has been modified, then you use DEFPARAMETER.
<BrokenCog>
right, but, when the control flow returns back to the previous file, the variable will now potentially have a different value than before the second file was included
<beach>
BrokenCog: Imagine you have a file that has (defvar *friends* '(jane bill sandy)) in it, but then you decide you want to add fred as a friend. If yo do that and reload the file, then *friends* will not change.
<BrokenCog>
i guess that's what I'm not getting. When would one reload the file? in a new process instance of the code?
<beach>
BrokenCog: I think you are confused. Control flow doesn't have anything to do with files. There is one global value of every variable at any point in time.
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<beach>
No, during development. You would modify your code and then load the file again, by rerunning asdf:load-system, or by doing a C-c C-c interactively in SLIME.
<White_Flame>
defparameter is a parameter to your program, which might change on reload. defvar is a variable that will be initialized once, and your code might mutate in its running
<beach>
You wouldn't want to restart your image every time you modify your source code.
<BrokenCog>
defvar feels like a constant?
<beach>
BrokenCog: A Common Lisp image can live a very long time. I have mine running for weeks sometimes. During that time, I constantly modify the source code and reload.
<BrokenCog>
image being the repl?
<BrokenCog>
or slime's lisp process
<White_Flame>
consider (defvar *do-n-times* 10) and the code destructively counts that down. If you reload that file, it woudl start counting from 10 again, or you could change it to something else. DOesn't have to be constant
<BrokenCog>
White_Flame: right. I get that.
<beach>
The Common Lisp image is the contents of memory when you start the system. You interact with it by loading files, and modify code. SLIME creates a Common Lisp image.
<White_Flame>
the closest analog to an "image" would be a running virtual machine state. You can save & exit, and resume it later.
<beach>
BrokenCog: Pretty much the only way I use DEFVAR is without an initial value, and then I rely on my main entry point to bind it, like (let ((*variable* ...)) (do-stuff)).
<White_Flame>
BrokenCog: oh sorry, I misread. Defparameter is kinda more constant, while defvar is often mutated in the running state of the program
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<White_Flame>
the once-only initialization of defvar is what makes it reliable to keep (mutable) state in
<White_Flame>
as reloads of code won't trample & reinitialize that program state
<White_Flame>
but yeah, as you advance, you'll often use additional dynamic bindings of variables rather than just its toplevel value
<White_Flame>
as beach was demonstratin
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<White_Flame>
all that being said, defparameter isn't used very much anymore in my experience
<White_Flame>
changing source code to alter parameters is much more messy than passing in initialization parameters, however defparameter is how things went in yesteryears
<White_Flame>
if you download a library from quicklisp, for instance, you really don't want to go modifying their code just to be able to use it
<White_Flame>
by changing their parameters in the source files
<BrokenCog>
okay, thanks, both of you.
<beach>
Pleasure.
<BrokenCog>
yeah, constant wasn't the right term ... initializer seems more apt.
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<aeth>
defvar is kind of the opposite of a constant
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<aeth>
defparameter is basically the standard global but when you recompile the file it goes away, whereas defvar doesn't, so defvar is for the less constant things
<aeth>
defparameter often times is acting as a constant without actually being a constant (hence "parameter")
<aeth>
s/it goes away/any change you set to it goes away/
<aeth>
And why would you want a constant that's not actually a constant? So you can change it without restarting the REPL. It also lets people override it, perhaps locally to the dynamic scope of a LET.
<aeth>
There are also many things that you simply can't set as a defconstant constant, but alexandria:define-constant exists for that.
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<aeth>
And you don't need to modify any source code to alter the parameter; you just need to SETF (or LET, which for a dynamic/special *earmuffs* variable like the globals, is like a temporary SETF that undoes itself) before you run anything that uses it.
<aeth>
What really gets in the way and makes them fall out of favor is multithreading.
<White_Flame>
dynamic bindings shine in multithreading
<aeth>
Dynamic bindings shine when you want something like a stream, like *standard-output*
<mfiano>
dynamic bindings shine with API stability
<aeth>
But as soon as you have multiple threads involved, unless you know what you're doing, a bunch of stuff is going to end up in the wrong *standard-output* such as *inferior-lisp* instead of *slime-repl your-implementation*
<Mondenkind>
White_Flame: standard cl special semantics are awful for multithreading
<Mondenkind>
because you can reassign a special, but have no way to know whether your binding is thread-local or shared
<White_Flame>
you don't have to know, unless you want to force it thread-local
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<Mondenkind>
better would be to have two kinds of global variables: specials, which can be dynamically bound and which are always thread-local, and globals (a la sb-ext:defglobal), which only ever have one shared binding
<mfiano>
With the overhead of the runtime control flow involved, you can attach context easily and negligibly.
<mfiano>
ALso there is the portability likbrary for that, global-vars
* mfiano
goes to sleep because he can no longer type
<Mondenkind>
there's no portability library for variables which always have a thread-local binding
<Mondenkind>
there is the bordeaux-threads thing, but that doesn't help if somebody makes a thread without bt
<mfiano>
You mentioned sb-ext:defglobal. It's not necessary to reach for internals, when the common denominator is abstracted by this library.
<mfiano>
But, night!
<Mondenkind>
the global binding thing is not a very big deal, comparatively (there are ways around it). The problem is being assured that you have a thread-local binding. Afaik, there is no good portable way to do that
<Mondenkind>
good night
<White_Flame>
I still don't see why you'd need to know. The caller has set up the context (implicitly or explicitly) and you access the vars from that context
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<White_Flame>
so the callee code works from both configurations (global vs threadlocal)
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<aeth>
because if you're using the parameter as a hidden parameter to functions you're calling, if two threads are accessing it at the same time, bad things can happen?
<Mondenkind>
White_Flame: it's not uncommon in c to define thread-local variables. Do you not see the utility?
<White_Flame>
I've written lots of highly threaded programs and application servers in CL, and special vars have always easily done the right thing for me
<White_Flame>
and yeah, I've used explicit TLS stuff in C and java
<White_Flame>
special vars are better
<aeth>
yes, when you use bordeaux-threads
<aeth>
the solution ofc is to always use bordeaux-threads
<jack_rabbit>
special vars are way better
<Mondenkind>
White_Flame: multiple concurrent algorithms I've designed need clock-like thread-local structures. I do not see a good way to maintain these in portable cl. I've resigned myself to reaching into sbcl's guts to implement them
<White_Flame>
yeah, I haven't implemented low level primitives, I'm dealing in standard application space
<Mondenkind>
it's moreso an issue being being generic than low-level
<Mondenkind>
(although arguably in a general sense a specialised high-level thing sits atop a generic low-level thing)
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<BrokenCog>
anyone have a good tutorial for learning packages?
<edgar-rft>
BrokenCog: yes, gimme a few seconds for the link...