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<heat>
i think i've finally fixed the nagging nightly build CI failures that have been emailing me every night at 3am for the last 5 months
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<klys>
onyx builds?
<heat>
yes
<klys>
were you passing -Wall -Werror
<heat>
i do pass -Wall -Werror for first part code cuz the toolchain version is (for now) tightly coupled with the rest of the system
<heat>
first party*
<heat>
anyway, problem here was that e2fsprogs was not finding my libuuid (because i never added a pkgconfig file) so it figured it should build its own libuuid, with an old interface, and overwrite it. and parted didn't like that
<heat>
packaging is hell.
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<the_oz>
why would you generate a uuid as opposed to using a hash
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<kof673>
it is used for filesystem stuff i believe...to give a unique label?
<kof673>
and/or for a "disk"
<the_oz>
ah
<the_oz>
I had to normalize zfs tendency to ignore autogenerated names, ignore uuid, etc sort of schemes
<the_oz>
because 1 is fungible, and uuids are opaque to the eye, think it was normalized to gpt labels iirc
<the_oz>
but that's hazy
<kof673>
freebsd geom (pre-zfs) i just used glabel, 18G_SCSI_1 500G_USB_1 etc.
<kof673>
or for like external usb sticks, 32G_RED 32G_GREEN etc. lol
<the_oz>
glabel would be my preferred, it uses the least off the disk. it does make the data unreadable to other tools though, which may or may not be your preference
<the_oz>
you are a smart man
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<the_oz>
I'd probably fuck up an updating process and need a 3rd 20BLUE for stable unaltered LTS builds
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<dinkelhacker_>
What's a 20BLUE?
<kof673>
it was a disk space joke i suppose :D
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<the_oz>
well, when you have 32RED and 32GREEN
<the_oz>
and you suggest adding a partition
<the_oz>
you must qualify it under the new room
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<the_oz>
21RED 21GREEN 20BLUE
<the_oz>
isn't a joke, it just is
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<kazinsal>
hrm. toaru is archived so I guess that OS is dead now
<kazinsal>
kuroko hasn't been archived so maybe it's still good for development
<kazinsal>
the author of both doesn't seem to be in this chat anymore either
<Mutabah>
yeah... strange, she was a prolific member
<kazinsal>
indeed
<kazinsal>
I was going to point to someone elsewhere about kuroko as a good plang-esque lua replacement
<kazinsal>
but now kaylee seems to have vanished
<kazinsal>
I hope she's alright
<Mutabah>
Ditto
<Mutabah>
I saw a comment from nortti in April saying that she was active somewhere else after disconnecting from here in March
<dinkelhacker_>
also on github the activity drops starting from march
<kazinsal>
I know she wanted to help out with the moderatorship of osdev dot org
<kazinsal>
but also chase did another runner in the night
<nikolar>
what is kuroko
<kazinsal>
chase really needs to hand this shit over to one of us
<Mutabah>
nikolar: klange's python clone
<kazinsal>
one day the domain's gonna get missed and then some russian pirate's gonna pull it and we'll all be fucked
<nikolar>
ah
<kazinsal>
nikolar: klange wrote the lua equivalent of python and then vanished
<nikolar>
that's odd
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<kazinsal>
wonderfully embeddable, enough so you could jam it into a bootloader
<nikolar>
(not sure what lua equivalent of python means but still)
<nikolar>
oh that
<kazinsal>
python but with next to no external requirements
<kazinsal>
written in plain standard C11
<kazinsal>
she had it working as a REPL as a UEFI application
<kazinsal>
with UEFI filesystem API support and all
<kazinsal>
but about six months ago she disappeared
<nikolar>
hope everything is ok
<kazinsal>
I think we're all kinda worried but I just brought it up because I happened to be looking for some ideas on some portability stuff
<zid`>
klange only ever pops in
<zid`>
rather than idling
<kazinsal>
I hope she's okay
<kazinsal>
I know she'd been dealing with some stuff
<kazinsal>
she's been a wonderful person in this community and I'd be devastated if something happened to her
<Mutabah>
zid`: She maintained an idle connection until March this year
<kazinsal>
god I hope she'
<kazinsal>
s okay
<nikolar>
i assume no one had any direct contact with her
<kazinsal>
I don't think so, no
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<sortie>
<kazinsal> one day the domain's gonna get missed and then some russian pirate's gonna pull it and we'll all be fucked
<sortie>
I still have my daily cronjob backing up the osdev wiki
<sortie>
I would definitely feel a lot better if one of us, or multiple of us, owned osdev.org
<sortie>
I absolutely have a plan to migrate osdev.org to Sortix
<kazinsal>
it would be nice if a conglomerate thereof would have some kind of cooperative ownership of the domain
<sortie>
University of Osdev
<sortie>
Osdev Foundation
<kazinsal>
such that if say three of five of us disappeared into the ether, the two remaining could run the place
<sortie>
And a yearly general assembly where the president has to present what the plan is, what the contingencies are, that they are available and reachable, and the domain is gonna be paid
<sortie>
Actually I wonder if Chase might be open to transferring ownership to such an organization
<kazinsal>
listen I'd administer the fucken thing for free if it meant that we didn't have to spend a year waiting for the designated idiot to get a response from chase
<sortie>
For some nominal membership dues, it's cheap to run this thing
<kazinsal>
ayep
<sortie>
Although among us I bet any of us will just volunteer to pay for the darn thing out of pocket to save hassle
<kazinsal>
I've been here long enough to be willing to throw the sixty whatever bucks it is for a delaware LLC
<sortie>
We probably need to establish some sort of legal entity somewhere in order to own a domain as an organization
<kazinsal>
I can establish said such in Canada
<sortie>
At least here locally it's easy to basically start a formal organization, gotta have bylaws and that stuff that meet minimum requirements
<kazinsal>
So for maximum US shitpostery we'd need someone to do like a Delaware LLC
<kazinsal>
Yeah if we did it as a BC non-profit corporation we'd need to do a bunch of shareholding stuff
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<kazinsal>
And I don't know the magic for that
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<sortie>
It gets a lot trickier based on where the site is hosted, what laws its subject to, especially with the sheer amount of user content
<nikolar>
sortie: who even owns the osdev domain
<kazinsal>
I was involved in that kind of mess about a decade ago so
<sortie>
Chase
<kazinsal>
The cheap result was running it out of scandawegia
<sortie>
Who is absolutely elusive and somehow keeps it unning
<kazinsal>
That's really the hardest part
<kazinsal>
Even if we had a formal organization that a few of us were on the board of
<kazinsal>
We would need chase to sign over the ownership of existing osdev dot org assets to us
<sortie>
But yeah it totally makes sense to make a non-profit organization dedicated to public education about operating systems
<kazinsal>
I would be more than happy to fund that personally for a few years
<sortie>
Same
<sortie>
The goal here is redundancy
<sortie>
And accountability
<kazinsal>
Yeah
<kazinsal>
This is something we've talked about on here for a decade or more
<kazinsal>
But we've never gotten a thing together for
<sortie>
The moderators and such could also be elected by the members
<sortie>
Ah I guess I don't recall such conversations, at least being serious
<kazinsal>
There was a deal on the forums where no one had any sort of admin or mod powers
<kazinsal>
And so chase just shat those out to the first person who logged in
<sortie>
Wait what?
<kazinsal>
Ayep
<sortie>
I have not visited the forums in a long, long time. No idea what's going on there.
<kazinsal>
We need some better association between the osdev dot org bits and the IRC bits
<sortie>
Well I'm still a moderator there last I checked
<kazinsal>
I haven't really posted on the forums other than saying "hi I've been a member of the IRC for 20 years"
<sortie>
Yeah I am still a moderator
<kazinsal>
the biggest issue with the forums is like this
<sortie>
I mean the moderators here are also forum moderators
<kazinsal>
about six or seven years ago one of the forums mods had some serious issues with the problems with people posting
<sortie>
Actually hmm
<kazinsal>
and so he was deleting posts
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<kazinsal>
brendan went ham on people on the forums and it took ages to get him removed from power on the forums and also in the IRC
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<kazinsal>
because we had two different powers that be on the two different sites
<kazinsal>
so someone with powers in one spot could still go insane for weeks before someone with superior powers on the other could fix it
<sortie>
The #osdev moderators are sortie, geist, Mutabah, klange, and air. klange appears to have largely retired from osdev. Maybe we should appoint another moderator to replace her? air is also rarely active in here but always idles
<sortie>
Ugh yes I remember the brandan bad blood
<kazinsal>
I can help out if you want, I was on #osdev on freenode since 2007 and have been on the forums for... I don't know
<sortie>
It was part of why I kinda stopped with the forums besides just moving on in life
<sortie>
kazinsal: I mean you'd be an obvious nomination as a moderator. Often around, knows a lot, good vibes and conflict resolution.
<kazinsal>
we honestly just other than nothing need a few more people on hand just in case
<nikolar>
lol who else though
<sortie>
Yeah I think the moderation works well enough with me, geist and Mutabah in practice. I do have weeks where I just disappear down crazy adventures
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<kazinsal>
I'd love to have someone else to nominate
<nikolar>
oi heat's here
<sortie>
heat definitely does not get the keys to the kingdom
<kazinsal>
heat just joined at the exact moment that someone upstairs in my apartment building just slammed the floor a couple times
<nikolar>
lol sortie, that was mostly a warning :P
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<nikolar>
we got a heat but lost a heat_
<sortie>
The nice thing about the three moderators is also that we get full timezone coverage with Australia, Europe, and America
<nikolar>
kek
<zid`>
Don't forget the kingdom of serbia
<nikolar>
was that a complete coincidence
<kazinsal>
checking in from the same coverage as geist
<zid`>
klango was in japan though I thought
<sortie>
klange does provide that Japan timezone coverage last I checked
<kazinsal>
yeah
<kazinsal>
I honestly don't know what we have in the way of timezone checks
<sortie>
This place doesn't need much moderation in practice recently
<zid`>
.ee got glined
<zid`>
no more mods needed
<nikolar>
even that weird guy tha was spamming constantly when i joined isn't around anymoer
<kazinsal>
but big G and I can generally cover 0900 to 2300 UTC
<sortie>
I like to headcanon our estonian friend got in real life trouble
<zid`>
I assume their handler found their elicit mobile phone
<nikolar>
sortie: who'd that be
<zid`>
nikolar: freenode/libera had 2/3 active very un-medicated schizophrenics
<sortie>
nikolar: Congratulations! You don't know!
<zid`>
all from .ee
<nikolar>
oh
<nikolar>
lol
<sortie>
I even know his identity since he fucked up
<kazinsal>
but yeah having a few more people on the forums would be nice
<kazinsal>
and having someone with magic powers on the forums other than our absentee landlord would be fucking magical.
<sortie>
I was unclear if the forums were even moderated at all or if it was just a spam pool
<kazinsal>
it's a spam pool because no one checks in
<kazinsal>
the problem is it's running on 2007 software.
<kazinsal>
I've been here before
<sortie>
jeez
<kazinsal>
individual forums have hand-assigned moderators, so "global moderators" can't see who owns what
<kazinsal>
there's also an aggressive cloudflare thing going on that makes it hard to figure out anything
<kazinsal>
as far as I can tell, sortie is a global moderator, and then there's four or five other global moderators who haven't logged in in over a year
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<sortie>
"Last visit was: 09 Nov 2020 20:46"
<sortie>
That was around when my old desktop died
<kazinsal>
eg. combuster is a global moderator and I haven't talked to him since maybe 2018
<Mutabah>
The forum (last I was on there) had global mods, and was set up such that new accounts required approval
<Mutabah>
not sure of the current state
<kof673>
i would just vote don't do a u.s. corp but :D
<sortie>
I like that Combuster still has a signature quoting me: "Certainly avoid yourself. He is a newbie and might not realize it. You'll hate his code deeply a few years down the road." - Sortie
<kazinsal>
if quok is still a global moderator I haven't talked to him since 2014
<zid`>
I would also avoid any code that I wrote
<kazinsal>
great guy, hasn't been involved in our clique for a decade
<zid`>
only I know the bizzare peculiar ways in which it will definitely fail, but that don't matter to my one specific use-case
<dinkelhacker_>
From what all of you are writing it looks like its mostly about the wiki. Couldn't you just get another domain and move the wiki there? If the owner of osdev.org isn't willing to transfer the domain?
<kazinsal>
this is why I poked the thread on the forums ages a go. we need people who are alive and who know stuff and give a damn
<zid`>
great, now, who are the admins going to be?
<zid`>
oh wait, that's the discussion we're already having :P
<sortie>
I'd suggest the point of action is for us to look into what it takes to make a non-profit foundation locally or something that legally can own a .org domain and how to formally incorporate that, and ask Chase whether he would be amendable to transfer ownership to such an organization
<kazinsal>
sortie's the best option for "lead admin" as far as a point of contact goes imo
<zid`>
anyone acn register an .org now
<sortie>
For admins/moderators, I say we just continue with the current ones, excluding the ones inactive in the community
<kazinsal>
I'd be happy to be an admin if appointed as such both as a previous community manager
<kazinsal>
and based on the fact that I give a shit about this community
<sortie>
As for the formal leadership president/treasurer whatever, the moderators can elect one as the initial members
<sortie>
We can probably call them the board
<kazinsal>
we've been at this for, what, almost 30 years now? no sense in doing a full reset of it
<sortie>
Or open up membership to the public
<sortie>
dinkelhacker_: Totally doable to set up a new domain but I would not want to fork the community, and it would be wonderful to continue the history. There's lots of links to these sites and resources
<kazinsal>
figuring out who's technically still an admin or mod at this point is also a problem
<sortie>
kazinsal: Easy for any active moderator to prove it
<kazinsal>
again just based on who I checked for former global admins on the forums, three quarters of them are MIA
<kazinsal>
when the freenode->libera split happened it was a big pile of question marks how to handle it
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<dinkelhacker_>
sortie yea you're right...
* sortie
. o O (The Osdev Organization)
<kazinsal>
I think we as a set of twenty year regulars could find a way to set up an org to "own" the whole deal
<sortie>
At least at this point #osdev is actually associated with osdev.org, there's overlap in moderation staff
<kazinsal>
all two of each
<sortie>
A new domain would be a last resort
<sortie>
But I'd only do that if osdev.org falls
<sortie>
Actually it may be worth looking at what libera did
<kazinsal>
really what we need is a solid bit of moderation coverage between each five to six hour time period, and more than one person on point on the forums
<sortie>
They set up a new organization formally when freenode fell
<kazinsal>
and at least two people on admin on the forums so we can do important things like TLS certificates
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<kazinsal>
the worst problem we've had on the forums in the past two or so years was the TLS certs expiring and chase being awol for months
<sortie>
Vote sortie for president of osdev. I promise to migrate forums.osdev.org to Sortix.
<kof673>
> Libera Chat is a Swedish nonprofit organisation yes, that is good :D swedish :D
<sortie>
Yeah I'm from Denmark
<kof673>
+
<kazinsal>
vote sortie for president, vote kazinsal for VP. denmark and canada have recently resolved their international border disputes with zero bloodshed
<zid`>
When I am elected president, I will take all 16:9 video, add letterboxing so it fits on a phone screen, then add pillars so it's 16:9 again
<kazinsal>
this is not a joke. canada and denmark had an international border war for 50 years that was resolved with zero bloodshed
<zid`>
wait nvm, people already do that
<sortie>
The Hans Island agreement has solved a long and bitter bloodless dispute
* zid`
goes on a stabbing spree
<kazinsal>
we just spent half a decade trading flags and alcohol
<sortie>
kazinsal: Say, would you like a better King?
<sortie>
Canada is the Denmark of America after all
<sortie>
Less Commonwealth more Rigsfælledskab, eh?
<kazinsal>
sortie: only if you help us take over Washington and Oregon states
<sortie>
I'm meddling in foreign affairs that is the the people there to decide
<sortie>
* I'm NOT meddling in foreign affairs that is the the people there to decide
<kazinsal>
between the powers that be we can establish ourselves as the duopoly kings of the Canado-Danish Empire
<kof673>
was this ever turned down? > Canada acceding to this confederation, and joining in the measures of the united states, shall be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this union
<nikolar>
i mean canada isn't a part of the us, is it
<kof673>
"quebec" had an offer long ago
<zid`>
It's in america, if that helps
<sortie>
kazinsal: "Certainly avoid yourself. He is a newbie and might not realize it. You'll hate his code deeply a few years down the road." - Sortie
<bslsk05>
libera.chat: Libera Chat Bylaws | Libera Chat
<kazinsal>
"interpretation of the bylaws: if the canadians happen to come upon you, bow down while run away screaming"
<kazinsal>
erm I mean uh erm huh erm I agree
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<kazinsal>
I feel like I'm about to be knighted in the fiefdom of King Frederik X, hallowed be his name, under promotion of Lord Sortie I
<sortie>
They call me sir root
<kazinsal>
speaking of, if you've got time off this early october I've got a vegas trip planned and we could use one more for the Excalibur Tournament of Kings
<sortie>
I am doing the US later this week
<kazinsal>
oh fun
<sortie>
Early October, I do have a quick Oslo trip
<kazinsal>
doing PNW anytime soon?
<sortie>
Nah NYC this time
<kazinsal>
rip
<sortie>
PNW is gonna be difficult on account of being laid off so corp isn't gonna fly me there anymore
<kazinsal>
next time you're doing a PNW trip let me and big G know
<sortie>
So I'll need some reason to go
<kazinsal>
aww
<sortie>
I am a bit sad I haven't been to Seattle since '19
<bslsk05>
donno2048/snake-bios - A snake game made entirely in the BIOS (0 forks/23 stargazers)
<sortie>
woohoo
<kazinsal>
it'd be nice to do a seattle thing the three of us
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<sortie>
Totally, agreed
<kazinsal>
I'm doing vegas oct 10-15 for something unrelated and then a quick trip down to seattle the weekend after because I want to hit up the Connections Museum
<kazinsal>
they've got several fully working telecom frames working and I would love to do that
<sortie>
neato
<kazinsal>
my dad was a telco guy from 1979 to 2013 or so, and his dad behind him from 195X to 1998
<heat>
<sortie> heat definitely does not get the keys to the kingdom
<heat>
wtf what did i do
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<sortie>
heat: Onyx just isn't up to the task yet. You still have to prove yourself.
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<heat>
my OS is more evolved than anyone else on that list
<heat>
even yours
<heat>
it's /less functional/, yes, but technically superior
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<sortie>
The worst kind of superior
<nikolar>
> it's better, you just can't do anything to see that
<sortie>
Vote for sortie. heat's OS is just a reskinned BSD.
<nikolar>
:P
<heat>
>reskinned BSD
<heat>
wtf what did i do
<xenos1984>
sortie: I have setup a Sortix VM (among a few others) as showcase for an open source day this Wednesday. The target group is mostly students, but also other tech enthusiasts. Do you have a recommendation what to show? I checked out trianglix and got confused when it turned into all runes... But I even managed to read a few after a while...
<heat>
i'm getting blasted today
<sortie>
Paid for by the campaign to smear heat
<heat>
i will however readily admit your end product is more interesting than my end product
<nikolar>
sortie has to win the ellection somehow
<heat>
particularly the bunch of core software you wrote together with the kernel
<sortie>
xenos1984: Oh lots of stuff. Did you use nightly rather than 1.0?
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<xenos1984>
Huh... I downloaded from the website, let me see... 1.0
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<xenos1984>
So you recommend nightly?
<sortie>
xenos1984: In the nightly builds towards 1.1, there's endless new stuff. There's the new display(1) minimal graphical interface. It has GUI programs like terminal, asteroids, video-player (may or may not work on files, the -z percentage option is handy), etc.
<heat>
networking!
<kof673>
> take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names if it is onyxen then i vote heaten
<heat>
onyxen yes thats how you form a good pluralen
<xenos1984>
sortie: Oh, cool, I'll check it out.
<sortie>
xenos1984: Yeah nightly has so so so much more to the point 1.0 is obsolete. Networking is a huge addition. There's curl, git, wget, libressl, nginx. There's a whole new powerful init(8) system with daemons too. You can literally set up a Sortix server easily on the internet
<sortie>
ntpd too
<sortie>
xenos1984: nightly also has a full set of editors, emacs, vim, nano, ed. It's also completely self-hosting out of the box. cd /src && make and you can build it all, including 90 ports. It'll take forever, but a quick make PACKAGES='' is fast and only builds the base system. cd /src/kernel && make install && reboot is always fun to show off
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<sortie>
xenos1984: Lots of programming languages too. c, c++, python, gawk, lua, perl. There's ffmpeg for video and audio work. irssi for IRC (you can join irc.sortix.org which literally runs solanum ircd on a Sortix VM). There's links(1) for www in the command line.
<heat>
RUST where
<nikolar>
no one cares about rust heat, chill
<sortie>
heat: Fix god damn bootstrap complexity
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<sortie>
xenos1984: There's qemu too. qemu-system-x86_64 -m 1280 -vga std -cdrom /dev/ata0 can e.g. be used for recursively booting the same CD. (RAM required depends on what ports you load. I recommend none, as they are super slow)
<heat>
i'm afraid the kids these days don't enjoy gawk and perl and c99 like they used to
<heat>
they do enjoy FORTRAN though. FORTRAN where?
<heat>
GNU cobol?
<xenos1984>
sortie: Oh, great :) I just downloaded the nightly live CD and booted that in the VM instead of 1.0. Looks nice :)
<sortie>
xenos1984: The nightly releases are also built 100% natively on themselves. Literally cd /src && make. You can see all the ports by doing ls /tix/manifest, or ls /src/ports to see the source code for them.
<sortie>
You can also upgrade 1.0 installations all the way to nightly if you want to. It's fully supported
<nikolar>
heat: don't forget gnu ada
<sortie>
xenos1984: OH. I FORGOT. SSH! SSHD!
<heat>
is this a motherfucking gog reference
<heat>
oh gog isnt here :(
<kazinsal>
yep time to go to bed
<nikolar>
sortie: avahi when
<heat>
nikolar, don't forget the superior version of go, gccgo
<nikolar>
i want to be able to do `ssh sortix.local`
<nikolar>
heat: oh how did i forget
<heat>
and the fun version of shell programming, POSIX sh
<sortie>
xenos1984: Trianglix is mostly a fun thing to prank people for April's fools lol. The gui also has the aquatinspitz game which is fun to guess what means. (rot13 answer: Znkjryy'f qrzba)
<heat>
strict POSIX!
<sortie>
Oh yeah I forgot I had sh as a programming language
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<sortie>
nikolar: I don't actually know what avahi is
<heat>
the best part about dash is when scripts don't work
<heat>
avahi is a local-network-level protocol that allows for local domain resolution of shit like pedro.lan
<heat>
if e.g there's a machine in the local network with hostname "pedro" it Just Works as long as you have an avahi daemon active
<nikolar>
it allows for local service broadcast, so for example, your networked printer just shows up when you press print
<sortie>
Probably not too hard to port or even implement
<nikolar>
i only recently found out about it
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<nikolar>
your dns resolver will probably need a patch
<sortie>
Definitely
<heat>
musl requires a separate resolver there i believe
<nikolar>
yeah, alpine has a guide
<xenos1984>
sortie: Ah, well, I guess then I got pranked :D Some of my fellow hackerspace members liked it. Let's see how the students will do :) We will have a few laptops, so they can VNC into the VM.
<sortie>
Personally I just put my Sortix VMs on the public internet and give them DNS entries like sortix.org, irc.sortix.org, etc.
<heat>
nikolar, do you know what answer the mDNS query on an alpine system?
<heat>
i assume it's not the kernel
<sortie>
xenos1984: The worst part of triangix was that it was actually useful and better than nothing
<sortie>
So I kept it in Sortix :D
<nikolar>
nope, do you wanna know how they recommend you to set it up heat
<heat>
no, it Just Works in my case
<heat>
at least from my laptop to my alpine rpi
<nikolar>
sure, alpine can broadcast its ip
<nikolar>
but on alpine, you can't (by default) resolve mDNS
<heat>
seems to work here
<nikolar>
well if it's an alpine image for a raspi, it's probably already set up
<heat>
just wondering if this is udhcpc at work, or maybe even the router
<nikolar>
could be the router
<xenos1984>
sortie: Well, I know a few runes now... :D Self-hosting is really neat. It's one of the reasons why I chose it for our event. We also have ToaruOS, Illumos / OpenIndiana, Haiku, ReactOS and a few more.
<heat>
my dns resolver is the router after all
<sortie>
:D
<sortie>
xenos1984: I'd love to see any footage, photos, or slides from the event :D
<heat>
don't forget the ultimate hobby OS, freebsd
<nikolar>
lol having illumos amongst the rest of those will never not be funny
<heat>
openbsd is also literally, by definition, a hobby OS
<heat>
netbsd too
<nikolar>
how so
<heat>
dragonflybsd is so hobby it's way deader than onyx
<heat>
who the heck gets paid to work on openbsd and netbsd?
<heat>
most people hack on it for fun and personal need
<xenos1984>
sortie: I'll let you know! They will be on our (new and yet to be filled) homepage. It is the official re-opening event of our hackerspace after moving into a new location, which we renovated during the past 8 months.
<bslsk05>
imgflip.com: confused nick young - Imgflip
<mjg>
lemme tell you somethinig heat
<mjg>
someone is BASED
<heat>
my rpi just took 10 minutes to compile bash on a tmpfs
<mjg>
are you swapping
<heat>
no
<mjg>
are you on openbsd
<heat>
no
<mjg>
:O
<heat>
i did try to install netbsd on this Back Then but failed due to no wifi
<mjg>
are you on freebsd
<mjg>
lmao
<heat>
i think it's "swapping" as in the page cache is getting flushed out
<mjg>
if linux had sensible tracing you could check
<mjg>
:d
<mjg>
(right now you have to dig it out like an animal)
<heat>
you know there's dtrace for linux right?
<mjg>
and ebpf
<mjg>
you do know both suck right
<heat>
it's life
<mjg>
there is stuff which *can* be done, but nobody did in ze linux land
<mjg>
to split out the off cpu time
<mjg>
so that you don't have to dig through shit like processes in waitpid
<mjg>
and instead you have it spelled out what contributed to the real delay
<heat>
linux tracks IO wait%
<mjg>
in general mofo
<mjg>
you don't know where the time is spent
<mjg>
for example
<mjg>
suppose there is a rwsem you wanna grab
<mjg>
but the owner is stuck waiting on i/o
<mjg>
how is that shown
<mjg>
it is not
<mjg>
you get a shite all or nothing reporting only which you then have to sift through by hand
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<_ngn>
yo whats the use of the trap gate
<nikolar>
to trap gates, duh
<_ngn>
i mean what is it used for
<heat>
i don't think anyone uses trap gates
<heat>
generally you need a couple of instructions with irqs off to sort out interrupt state
<netbsduser>
for traps as opposed to interrupts i suppose
<netbsduser>
i don't use them because you need to do swapgs stuff and it's inherently racy with a trap gate
<netbsduser>
i.e. you make a syscall, in your syscall handler you test if cpl = 3, if so, you swap gs
<_ngn>
in the wiki page for IDT it says that they are used for "Exceptions", so exceptions cant be handled by interrupt gates?
<netbsduser>
but before you can swapgs, an interrupt comes in, the same logic you use there to swapgs if needed, but as interrupted cpl = 0, you don't swapgs, disaster, everything falls to pieces
<heat>
_ngn, they can, and they should
<netbsduser>
_ngn: don't put stock in the wiki
<heat>
seriously, forget the gates thing, use interrupt gates
<heat>
it's the only usable thing
<_ngn>
also it says "When such an exception occurs, there can sometimes be an error code placed on the stack" does that mean trap gates cant be used without IST?
<heat>
hm?
<_ngn>
netbsduser: im not thats why im asking
<netbsduser>
i don't think the gates have anything to do with ISTs
<netbsduser>
if an exception produces an error code it puts it on the stack
<_ngn>
oh okay so it places them on the current stack
<heat>
on the stack _after switching_
<_ngn>
also are these error codes placed on the stack when i use interrupt gates as well?
<netbsduser>
you've got to use rsp0 so that they don't try to put it on the user-mode stack (because the very reason you page faulted might be that a page in the user stack is not mapped)
<netbsduser>
with rsp0 the stack pointer is loaded with that value when you're interrupted from user mode so that the stuff is pushed to the kernel stack instead
<netbsduser>
and yes, they are pushed regardless of whether a trap or interrupt gate is used
<_ngn>
thanks
<_ngn>
one last thing do i need to pop the error code before iret
<heat>
yes
<_ngn>
so i should check the stack if theres an error code or not?
<netbsduser>
you know if there is an error code according to the vector
<netbsduser>
general protection faults, page faults, some others push them
<netbsduser>
others don't
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<_ngn>
so i need to check the vector against every single exception vector that produces an error code?
<heat>
yes
<heat>
there's a trick
<heat>
have two templates for the vector code: one for vectors that push, one for the vectors that don't
<heat>
on the vectors that don't, push a dummy error code
<heat>
then the common code can just blindly pop the error code and return
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<_ngn>
oh thats a neat trick!
<_ngn>
thank you heat and netbsduser (and nikolar for the bad joke :)
<nikolar>
you're welcome
<heat>
you're welcome :)
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<heat>
>Experimental support for the Rust programming language has been added
<heat>
gcc 14 has gccrs???
<dinkelhacker>
Nice
<Ermine>
Haven't they added it earlier?
<nikolar>
heat: yeah
<heat>
nope, it's right here on the gcc 14 changelog
<nikolar>
it barely does anything
<nikolar>
it's just added to the build system basically
<heat>
oh yeah?
<nikolar>
A LOT of stuff is missing
<heat>
could it compile kernel rust? maybe?
<nikolar>
nope
<nikolar>
i'd be willing to be on it
<heat>
you're on it? hello nikolar new member of the rust gcc team
<nikolar>
*bet
<nikolar>
typo
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<heat>
>New option -finline-stringops, to force inline expansion of memcmp, memcpy, memmove and memset, even when that is not an optimization, to avoid relying on library implementations
<nikolar>
that's actually neat
<dinkelhacker>
I wanted to do some rust stuff for the ArcV2 architecture which is an experiemental LLVM target. But I guess that is probably still better than using gcc.
<dinkelhacker>
Oh and also it doesn't even supprt libcore.. that's a bit harsh
<heat>
>New type attribute hardbool, for C and Ada. Hardened booleans take user-specified representations for true and false, presumably with higher hamming distance than standard booleans, and get verified at every use, detecting memory corruption and some malicious attacks.
<heat>
crazy stuff
<Ermine>
Iirc gccrs lacks borrow checker
<dinkelhacker>
Ermine: that is a feature!
<nikolar>
they plan to use polonius or whatever is called
<nikolar>
but so is rust
<nikolar>
*rust proper
<childlikempress>
hardbool ii: bool harder
<nikolar>
lol
<mjg>
nikolar: that's not neat whatsoever mofo
<mjg>
nikolar: that's just "well just emit rep mov/stos and call it a day LOL"
<childlikempress>
that's like
<childlikempress>
it's less work to type -finline-stringops for my bootloader than to implement memcpy
<mjg>
you can grab a bsd-licensed lol version
<mjg>
would you like a link
<childlikempress>
i mean i'd probably just uhh
<heat>
i've had N discussions over time about low level code not packaging their own memcpy/set/move/cmp and causing issues when writing code
<childlikempress>
char *memcpy(char *x, char *y, int n) { char*xx=x; while (n--) *xx++=*y++; return x; }
<heat>
this is a welcome change
<mjg>
does librust ship with it
<mjg>
8(
<mjg>
maybe there are fearless string ops there
<childlikempress>
waow
<dinkelhacker>
lol the whole "fearless rust" slogan backfired quite a bit
<mjg>
dinkelhacker: they definitely had fearless marketing
<heat>
bunch of shell scripts that help you manage patches and refresh them against a new version, etc
<heat>
it's what debian uses for their whole package management thingy, I believe
<nikolar>
interesting
<sortie>
This is basically an example of the command that I use to make diffs 1) that are deterministic in order across locales 2) properly handle symbolic links, and I'm unclear what -P does that's undoc'd? I use it instead of -N tho. 3) Gets rid of deletions
<sortie>
heat: On top of that, I use tix-execdiff and tix-execpatch to track the executable bit, and tix-rmdiff and tix-rmpatch to track files that are removed from the upstream (so I don't waste a whole expensive diff hunk deleting files)
<heat>
sortie, btw any important things i need to know about before gcc 14?
<sortie>
heat: What do you mean? As opposed to gcc 12?
<heat>
yes
<heat>
regarding the warnings-now-errors awfulness
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<nikolar>
oh there was a big one there
<nikolar>
no clue what it was though
<sortie>
Well there was -fno-common and -Werror=implicit-function-declaration by default
<nikolar>
oh yeah -fno-common
<heat>
i've seen a lot of sussyness from function declarations in configure scripts
<sortie>
heat: The thing is that, it's largely not gcc's fault? GCC 14 itself is pretty much fine. Maybe some minor stuff also changed from 12 to 14, but generally my patches applied all the way back from 5.2.0 and only had to be slightly rebased
<sortie>
libstdc++ now also supports being built standalone without being part of a gcc build (requires out of directory build, tho, in my testing)
<heat>
the big issue was 13 -> 14 with the werror stuff for the terrible function decls and the sort
<heat>
this hit *everyone*. iirc the people that really took the shock first were gentoo
<sortie>
heat: Honestly you're going to see the issues here and there depending on the versions of stuff you have ported. The newer versions of stuff has generally fixed it. I had to fix some stuff manually because some of my ports were slightly older
<sortie>
-Werror=implicit-function-declaration was not new for me. I had that in my CFLAGS for ports all along btw
<sortie>
So I already fixed almost all of those issues
<sortie>
-fno-common bite me a bit especially with static linking but generally easy
<sortie>
There was a myriad of different tiny issues here and there since ports can be a bit brittle
<sortie>
I think that's less of a concern 12 -> 14
<bslsk05>
gcc.gnu.org: Porting to GCC 14 - GNU Project
<sortie>
-Werror=return-mismatch hit me in base Sortix by accident
<heat>
i'm not concerned about *my code*, i'm concerned about third party packages
<sortie>
heat: You'll be fine. You don't have crazy many ports like me
<sortie>
Just give it a go and fix stuff. You'll have to patch stuff all the time anyway
<sortie>
In my ports system I made it free to patch ports so I just do it
<heat>
I LOVE PATCHING I LOVE PATCHING I LOVE PATCHING
<heat>
(i am going insane)
* mjg
burps
<nikolar>
oi
<mjg>
i wanted to ask who do you think is the biggest asshole i nlinux
<heat>
kent overstreet
<mjg>
strong pick ngl
<mjg>
also cliche innit
<heat>
i have a few other strong picks
<heat>
dave chinner, hch
<sortie>
> Support for the ia64*-*- target ports which have been unmaintained for quite a while has been declared obsolete in GCC 14. The next release of GCC will have their sources permanently removed.
<sortie>
rip
<nikolar>
heat: ^
<heat>
:(
<heat>
i can't even jerk about this, so sad
<sortie>
>
<sortie>
The Clang language extensions __has_feature and __has_extension have been implemented in GCC. These are available from C, C++, and Objective-C(++). This is primarily intended to aid the portability of code written against Clang.
<sortie>
oh hey
<sortie>
sexyh
<sortie>
C23? what is this
<nikolar>
what is what
<nikolar>
what is c23?
<sortie>
i am humble osdever c11
<nikolar>
sortie: have you ever wanted to write nullptr_t and nullptr in your c code
<heat>
"How to BURN OUT Open Source devs: After SENDING a patch, IBM asks me to also do a TESTCASE for FREE!"
<gog>
it made me look like a genius
<heat>
>sends patch
<heat>
>"yo can you add a testcase"
<heat>
>WHAT
<gog>
i got a ride home with my friend the othe rnight and his car wouldn't start and he's like oh god oh fuck i just got this what do and i'm like i gotchu bro
<gog>
the positive lead was like completely loose
<Ermine>
it's German
<mjg>
heat: i'm not watching that
<heat>
there's another vid where hch broke the ps3 hard drive driver and OMG IMPOSSIBLE OMG THEY BROKE PS3 THEY KEEP BREAKING THINGS FOR REFACTORING SO BAD LINUX KERNEL BAD
<mjg>
heat: but dude might happen to have a point
<mjg>
you usually get a total webdev on the corp side who does not even undersatnd the patch
<Ermine>
mjg: but they do break stuff sometimes don't they
<heat>
there's no point to be had here
<mjg>
so they are making up a reason to nto integrate it
<mjg>
Ermine: mon for all i know ps3 got broken on purpose
<gog>
i'm webdev
<mjg>
kind of a "is anybody even going to complain?"
<heat>
yes they break things sometimes, no it's not good
<gog>
i inject dependency on one side and get instance on other side
<gog>
how does it work?
<gog>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<gog>
framework's problem
<mjg>
you can't make a tomlette without breking some greggs
<heat>
but stopping all sorts of refactoring because of a fucking ps3 hdd driver is insane, sorry
<heat>
and it's NOT how the linux kernel works
<mjg>
just retire ps3
<mjg>
senk ju
<heat>
if you want insane stability, see windows
<gog>
what'
<mjg>
gog: frameworks work by using other frameworks
<heat>
pretty sure the AHCI driver hasn't been touched since like 2007 and it still works
<mjg>
well fuck that guy for not testing on ps3
<mjg>
!!!
<gog>
maybe linux should have a stable api for drivers
<gog>
did they ever think about that
<mjg>
OH
<mjg>
heresy
<mjg>
woudl be funny if they one day reverted on it
<gog>
instead of being like oh we fucked up power management code a decade ago
<heat>
mon i'll ping greg and he'll come here and tell you exactly why YOU'RE WRONG AND STUPID AND POOPY
<gog>
we need to rewrite everything
<mjg>
fwiw any serious enterprise distro *does* provide a stable KBI
<gog>
EnTerPriSe
<heat>
then i'll ping hch and he'll come here and tell you why you need to be EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL
<mjg>
heat: i'm just gonna speedrun the exchange and self-nak, thanks
<heat>
if you say otherwise you're wrong and NAK
<Ermine>
those enterprise distros tend to use 2.6.x don't they
<mjg>
no
<heat>
fuck no
<gog>
this is why hardware vendors took years to take linux remotely seriously
<gog>
you can't write shit against it
<Ermine>
j/k
<heat>
gog, yes you can, upstream
<mjg>
gog: i think that's part of the point
<mjg>
to force fucks to submit code
<Ermine>
nvidia says no
<gog>
yeah upstream until the API changes in 5 years
<mjg>
except then it lands in staging/
<gog>
anda gain in another 5 years!
<heat>
no?
<heat>
API changes on the core subsystem side need to touch all users
<heat>
it's exactly what happened to the ps3 driver
<heat>
someone decides to change an API, changes in-tree callers, done
<Ermine>
also testing is needed
<heat>
this is exactly why zfs has so many issues keeping up with the kernel, and ext4 doesn't. ext4 gets auto-adjusted and rolls with the kernel changes, zfs does not
<gog>
ext4 is the anointed child
<Ermine>
Is that ps3 driver was off-tree?
<heat>
no
<kof673>
briefly :) > Polyphemos. The giant wooed her with tunes from his rustic pipes and offerings of milk and cheese it doesn't work there, but that is because she is made out of milk, immune galênê and theia or "milky-white" need a green frog :D
<heat>
it was changed, but it was a buggy change. and of course no one really maintains or tests that shit
<gog>
i mean i agree that the ps3 driver probably needs to go if it's halting work
<mjg>
all old stuff is adding drag
<gog>
but can we get a crumb of backward compatibility in exchange?
<mjg>
whack the mf
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<gog>
linux works best as a subsystem of windows anyway
<gog>
we all knowing this
<mjg>
most stable combination is android as your daily driver
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<Ermine>
with kernel compat layer
<heat>
android actually has some stable ABI stuff now
<gog>
can't wait until haiku is the only OS i need
<gog>
ok i'm done trolling i'm sorry
<Ermine>
Also more or less thoroughly tested by the vendor
<mjg>
what if i release a linux distro named haiku
<gog>
i would marry you
<Ermine>
you gotta to write a haiku for each distro release
<mjg>
i heard skibidy toilet exists and that it is something on tiktok
<mjg>
but there is no way i'm googling that
<mjg>
pastthat i have no idea what you said
<gog>
i found this plastic toy toilet on my balcony is that the skibidi toilet
<mjg>
so you have a leg up on me :d
* gog
puts a leg up on mjg
<mjg>
which animal should i pretend to be this time around :thinkingface:
<gog>
hhhh
<gog>
god i'm old
<mjg>
we were the 90's kids
<mjg>
if you check the internet you will find it's the best period
<mjg>
so
<mjg>
worth it
<gog>
mjg what's your favorite spice girls song
<kof673>
> PS3 linux at some point a sony patchen (mandatory for online play, but believe you could manually disable updates) broke it...not sure if that ever was "Fixed" and it was the "phat" models only IIRC but maybe people have found other ways, no idea about emulators, etc. in any case, that update reduced the potential base at the time
<mjg>
gog: i only know of one
<mjg>
gog: i think you know which one in that case
<gog>
yes
<gog>
show me love
<gog>
spice world?
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<mjg>
dawg there is no way i'm googling that cancer
<gog>
smh
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<mjg>
i remember some of the lyrics, not the title
<mjg>
but i'm pretty sure it was their biggest hit
<mjg>
which britney spears song is your favourite mon
<gog>
toxic
<mjg>
is not that after the comeback?
<gog>
also the song you're thinking of is "wannabe" most likely
<kof673>
> milk and cheese alternate/equivalent, milk only at that part, no "cheese" :D anyways...
<gog>
no toxic was from her second album i think?
<mjg>
gog: now that you mention the title it probably is that
<mjg>
i hate the song tho
<mjg>
:d
<mjg>
spice girls, britney spears, backstreet fucks and similar are pre-tiktok brain rot
<heat>
backstreet fucks
<mjg>
it was an actual band
<gog>
i actually was just listening to britney fwiw
<mjg>
albeit i might have misspelled the name a little bit
<mjg>
so the funny thing about my piece of shit town is that somehow it was hardcore central
<mjg>
hardcore as in music genre
<mjg>
there were some local bands and tons of others visiting
<mjg>
you had to be overly mainstream to be into what was on the radio
<gog>
i grew up in a rural village where all we had was the top 40 stations from the nearest city
<mjg>
my condolences
<gog>
thanks
<mjg>
i had classmates who were super into anti-establishment 'n shit, basically larping non-conformance while being from middle class
<mjg>
so one day i was listening to rage against the machine
<mjg>
one of them asks what i'm listeing to, i told him
<mjg>
"commercial shit"
<mjg>
aight
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<mjg>
part of not being a loser required trashing anything even remotely popular
<mjg>
trashing well known popular stuff was a necessity
<mjg>
even for losers
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<mjg>
hue, so if you were kind of a soyboy you would listen to metalcore