klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<karenw> I suddenly realised, a month an a half after I wrote the code, that I never ensured AC was cleared after enabling SMAP. Now, easy mistake to make, but how what on earth made me think of it at 2am last night.
<karenw> Also, should I just overwrite RFLAGS to something sane early on or ignore it until the flags actually matter? The only other one I interact with directly is clearing the direction flag on interrupt.
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<Mutabah> I was putting my head to the pillow on Saturday evening, when I suddenly realised the source of a performance issue that had been haunting me. When your mind is at ease, you tend to get that new perspective on thigns
<zid`> rflags gets set to a fixed value during syscall anyway doesn't it
<zid`> IA32_FMASK
<zid`> so as long as your irq path, and your fmask are good, should be done
<karenw> Yeah, it's state is undefined when limine hands me control though afaik?
<karenw> To be more specific "IF flag, VM flag, and direction flag are cleared on entry. Other flags undefined."
<zid`> well yea, the other flags are 'zero' and stuff, the first instruction's going to clear/set those
<zid`> first alu op
<karenw> Do I need to clear AC on interrupt like I have to explicitly clear DF?
<karenw> The old flags are on the stack so it doesn't hurt I guess.
<Mutabah> I think AC is only settable by the kernel (ring0), so just clear it at startup and assume it's constant?
<karenw> Hmm, is it? I thought userspace could set it for it's original purpose of alignment checking? brb looking through the manual
<kazinsal> I think when you enable SMAP you can't use AC for alignment checking anymore
<zid`> I think interrupts actually clear a couple of bits if they go between rings, also
<zid`> trap, nested, and resume or whatever, probably not that useful these days though :p
<karenw> I thought the meaning of AC was ring-dependant. Ring 3 -> alignment check. Rings 0,1,2 -> SMAP enforced.
<kazinsal> comedy option: make AC=0 part of your ABI so if someone writes a program that depends on AC=1 it's not your problem if it breaks
<zid`> ys
<karenw> "Attempts to execute CLAC/STAC when CPL > 0 cause #UD"
<zid`> You can't load rflags from usermode directly
<zid`> only the 'flags' quarter is targetable by any ops, afaik
<zid`> there's popf, but no popef or poprf
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<karenw> LAHF/SAHF also, but again only the first 8 bits
<karenw> Why were LAHF/SAHF readded to long mode? I know modern windows requires them. (Or claims to anyway, reports of 11 working just fine)
<zid`> presumably, someone asked them to
<zid`> possibly microsoft
<zid`> remember, they make cpus for *clients*, their clients ask them for stuff, they design it and sell the chips
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<karenw> Yeah, but... why? 64-bit vista/7 were fine without them.
<zid`> absolutely no idea
<karenw> So wondering what use they have. I can see more why e.g. cmpxchg128 was a hard requirement from ms.
<zid`> it isn't something we're likely to find out, either
<karenw> POPF docs seems to say 64-bit mode does update AC from the stack in CPL>0
<karenw> So fine, that answers my question. Just CLAC on interrupt entry along with CLD.
<zid`> FMASK working on interrupt entry would be nice
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<zid`> Did you add AC support to usermode then?
<zid`> if you're worried about it coming back to your irq handler set
<karenw> I'm aware I'm in a mental trap of my own making that's irrelevant to actually making something functional.
<karenw> But usermode can't be trusted not to be hostile, and if they can disable SMAP (partially) that's bad from a security POV.
<zid`> well, userspace can't touch that bit
<zid`> userspace has the bits you set for it when you iretq to it, and the bits it can change with 'dec' and 'jz' etc
<zid`> rflags:eflags:flags is weird, honestly, the eflags/rflags part should just be a separate control reg
<zid`> I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't actually held in a register file type bit of silicon, and instead just various latches that get mass updated by the 'pop rflags' microcode
<zid`> inside iretq
<karenw> It can though? https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/popf:popfd:popfq 64-bit mode AC is marked S: Updated from stack regarless of CPL (and IOPL)
<bslsk05> ​www.felixcloutier.com: POPF/POPFD/POPFQ — Pop Stack Into EFLAGS Register
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<zid`> hrmph yea seems so
<zid`> 32,64 1-3, ?cpl =s
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<zid`> looks like in practice though, people are just doing clac inside user_copy
<zid`> instead of every irq
<karenw> I mean, you still have to do stac/clac around your user copies
<karenw> That's the point of SMAP
<karenw> But if you don't clear it on irq entry, SMAP would be disabled for the first user copy.
<karenw> s/disabled/unenforced
<zid`> first user copy of what?
<zid`> are you not.. calling functions to do user copies?
<zid`> It's just replacing if(addr_is_safe()) checks with asm("stac");
<zid`> err calc
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<karenw> Yes? You have to do `clac; <do the actual copy>; stac` right? If userspace cleared AC via popf, smap isn't enforced from irq entry until after the first user copy.
<karenw> Which of course shouldn't do any user copies, because they should all go through copy_from_user or whatever, which does the dance with the ac flag. which is why I commented earlier this is a giant trap my brain has gone down and not useful work
<zid`> until *before* the first user copy
<zid`> which is.. irrelevent, because you're not doing any user copies
<zid`> like yea, a random bug could accidentally write to userspace and then not crash because smap wasn't being enforced but ehh
<zid`> if you want to also treat it as a random hardening measure, then yea sure set it in the irq handler I guess
<zid`> but it isn't required for smap to do its actual job, hardening copy_from_user
<karenw> Yeah, sure. It's my brain going on a snipe-hunt instead of writing something useful.
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<zid`> I actually have broadwell+ now so maybe I should add it:p
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<karenw> qemu tcg has it
<karenw> I need a venn diagram of what tcg supports and what kvm supports on my machine. There's a lot exclusive to one or the other
<karenw> Then to confuse things even more I have the cursed laptop that's much newer but has a broken built-in keyboard.
<zid`> time to add usb support then?
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<karenw> It's always time to add USB support, after a bunch of other things :D
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<nikolar> ILLUMOS
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<zid`> nikolar: Why are we listing things inferior to onyx all of a sudden
<zid`> Or maybe I have it backwards, and we're listing OSes without encrypted keyboard inputs, hm
<nikolar> no one was listing anything so i started :P
<zid`> Anything is a list if you're confident enough
<Ermine> encrypted keyboard inputs?
<zid`> Yus
<Ermine> what on the earth is this
<zid`> all the non alphabetical characters give the wrong results
<vdamewood> Like when you type a £ and get a # instead?
<Ermine> instead of £ you get €
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<zid`> ` -> \, " £ -> #, ^ -> &, & -> /, * -> (, ( -> )
<Ermine> because PORTUGAL
<zid`> _ -> ?
<zid`> it's literally all wrong, every single one
<zid`> and it's also insane
<Ermine> it's your keyboard which is wrong
<nikolar> you're wrong
<Ermine> you can't expect operating system to figure out what is printed on your keyboard button
<zid`> No need, 99% of them that exist, have them in one of two locations
<zid`> with only " and @ swapped
<zid`> Quick recount, 99.98%
<Ermine> jokes aside, you need to change keymap in the source code
<zid`> portugal: 10M people
<Ermine> and?
<zid`> india + china: 2.8 billion
<zid`> + US + UK + most of europe
<zid`> Might as well build it to assume the monitor is actually a dreamcast VMU
<zid`> it'd be more likely
<nikolar> i doubt that china uses the same layout as you
<zid`> It does
<zid`> I checked
<heat> <Ermine> it's your keyboard which is wrong
<heat> yep
<heat> buy a pt-PT keyboard, you're welcome
<heat> PEBKAC
<zid`> note how () are on 9 and 0, not alt-gr-\ and shift-#
<zid`> making it actually possible to type on
<nikolar> that's taiwann
<nikolar> not mainland china
<zid`> cantonese is the same just with different stick figures
<heat> -999 social credit score
<nikolar> heat: that's way to lenient
<zid`> TAIWAN #1 anyway
<zid`> CHINA IS ASSHOLE
<nikolar> sure, but you were counting population
<zid`> yea but it's the same
<nikolar> and china blows taiwan out of the water
<heat> wdym, taiwan is china
<zid`> china blew taiwan out of the water!?
<zid`> FUCK
<heat> +4 quadrillion social credit score
<nikolar> lol
* zid` calls the google
<zid`> Better call hong kong and macau too, just in case
<zid`> nikolar: but yea, taiwanese and cantonese use the same stickmen, they just pronounce them differently
<nikolar> those are fine, you and portugal already gave them up
<nikolar> zid`: what about mandarin
<zid`> and use different words for things
<zid`> like latin languages
<zid`> and mandarin
<zid`> they're basically exactly the situation we have in europe
<zid`> They agreed on an alphabet, but you pronounce it differently and use different words
<heat> hong kong was british, macau was ours
<zid`> Just better hope they aren't any enclaves of insane people who think the top row should be cnrypted
<zid`> like, 10 million of them
<nikolar> zid`: you do realise that every european language has its own keyboard layout that's different than uk/us
<nikolar> right?
<zid`> Find me one?
<nikolar> german, french, italian, etc
<nikolar> pretty much all slavic languages
<zid`> *googles*
<zid`> nope, german qwertz is slightly weird, but not encrypted
<zid`> I already allowed " and @ being swapped etc
<zid`> okay french is fucked
<nikolar> check german number row again
<zid`> like, proper fucked
<zid`> yes, german is weird, paragraph and stuff
<zid`> but it's not encrypted like french
<nikolar> yup azerty rules apparently
<zid`> the french have the french disease though
<zid`> where if we invented a keyboard layout, they'd have to invent their own, incompatible one, and claim it's better
<zid`> just to be french
<zid`> greek keyboard layout surprisingly sane
<zid`> &*()-= all in order as they should be
<zid`> it has <> twice though for some reason?
<nikolar> german doesn't do &*()-=
<zid`> ,< and .> keys like normal, but \| key is now <>.. again
<zid`> yea german is the extreme limit of acceptableness
<zid`> french is beyond it by miles, portugal is in another continent
<nikolar> greek has weird quotes that are like >> and <<
<nikolar> maybe that's what you're seeing
<zid`> those have a name
<zid`> that I have forgotten
<nikolar> yeah
<zid`> it's latin
<zid`> and it's what we used to use before we settled on "
<zid`> greeks resist innovation
<zid`> but no, they literally have two <> keys from what I can see
<nikolar> uses a new symbol <- innovation
<nikolar> lol
<kazinsal> I think double chevron quotes are still formally standard in French
<zid`> nikolar: come on, it happened 500 years ago, they could have caught up by now, surely
<nikolar> zid`: on the serbian keyboard, there are two ways to type <> too
<nikolar> zid`: why would they though
<zid`> did you steal your keyboards from greece in a daring daylight robbery
<heat> maybe << and >> don't enforce an annoying borrow checker
<heat> NO im not rewriting all my texts with "
<zid`> C++ but you have to use greek quotation marks
<nikolar> no zid`
<zid`> and greek question marks
<nikolar> and normal semicolons
<heat> i do have « and »
<zid`> c«out;
<zid`> c<<out;
<zid`> see, the top one is way cooler
<nikolar> a ; b : c;
<zid`> that's a semicolon
<zid`> I can tell because my font subs in with a unicode font if you use the greek one :D
<nikolar> kek
<nikolar> a ; b : c;
<nikolar> how about now
<zid`> yep
<zid`> first one
<nikolar> lol looks exactly the same to me
<zid`> ez pz to tell
<nikolar> oh didn't even know you used it in your first thing
<zid`> I think we should only communicate using those little "glyph not found" boxes that browsers draw
<zid`> Then there'd be no confusion
<zid`> and I could use my numpad to put any character I'd seen in
<nikolar> genious
<zid`> They'd basically just be kanji
<zid`> and people can apparently read those
<zid`> I mean, I don't believe them, but they insist that it's true
<nikolar> they just make stuff up on the spot when they "read"
<nikolar> clearly
<zid`> I think they just know a few outlines
<zid`> and they just ignore all the middle bits
<nikolar> the most logical explanation
<zid`> 緑 and 縁 are just the same thing to them
<zid`> green vs edge
<nikolar> that's so cramped, what font sizes do they use
<zid`> yea it's a lot better if you're not using 8pt fonts
<zid`> I need like.. 18 minimum
<nikolar> i mean that explains why anything printed in china is in very wide times new roman
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<zid`> /xdcc send nikolar hiding_places_to_put_ratko_mladic.zip
<nikolar> isn't it too late for tha
<nikolar> that
<zid`> You need to be prepared to hide him in case he escapes surely
<zid`> what kind of serbian would you be otherwise
<zid`> also you should have some matresses in your garden in case anybody falls out of the sky
<nikolar> i don't have a garden :/
<zid`> ah, no potato for you then
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<vai> hi
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<junon> do I need to check / enable ACPI via the FADT information on each core or is it sufficient to do it once on the bootstrap processor?
<junon> Same question but for disabling the 8259
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<heat> once and once
<heat> chipset shit is _generally_ global
<junon> cool, thanks :)
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