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<GeDaMo>
⏻
<nikolapdp>
):
<_ngn>
ive implemented a simple ahci driver and i can successfully read from disk drives, however i cant read from cdrom drives, what might be the issue?
<zid`>
your cd-rom drive is ahci? :o
<_ngn>
well when i add a drive with media=cdrom in qemu its creates a new implemented port in the ci register
<_ngn>
and when i check the DET, the signature and stuff it seems to match with the disk drive
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<_ngn>
zid`: is it not supposed to show up when i probe the ports?
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<robotustra>
Hi people
<robotustra>
May be you know if anybody working on drivers for TempleOS?
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<gog>
i don't think so
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<robotustra>
if so, is there any good os for intel based x64 SBCs other than Linux or yocto?
<robotustra>
with networking and USB support?
<gog>
there's alwyas netbsd
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<robotustra>
could be netbsd installed from bootable USB stick?
<gog>
yes
<robotustra>
and it supports uefi?
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<robotustra>
and what is the difference between freebsd and netbsd?
<bslsk05>
wiki.netbsd.org: Installation on UEFI systems
<gog>
i don't know about all the detailed differences between freebsd and netbsd. they've been developed and maintained by different teams for decades
<zid`>
gog now do french vs italian
<robotustra>
what is the advantage of netbsd over linux?
<the_oz_>
lookup cathedra; vs. bazaar
<the_oz_>
and look at whayt it has netted
<gog>
zid`: non
<gog>
i don't know about relative advantage of netbsd. in that situation i would personally use some linux distro because it's what i know, but you asked specifically about an OS suitable for x86_64 SBCs that aren't linux
<gog>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<gog>
not being linux might be considered an advantage though
<gog>
linux suffers from being linux, for example. netbsd doesn't have this particular deficiency
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<gog>
the kings of old wanted unix
<robotustra>
I use linux for more than 20+ years, it have everything I need for desktops and laptops, but I think for SBCs which I'm using on robot it's seems to me too huge.
<gog>
what about alpine
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<robotustra>
but it shoud be able to support network cards, USB2.0, may be USB3.0, gpio, SSD and be x64
<robotustra>
ah, and be able to port some libraries like opencv
<Ermine>
> linux is too big
<Ermine>
> uses opencv
<robotustra>
probably such thing does not exist
<robotustra>
seems that I will get rid of opencv
<robotustra>
just replace it with my own library
<robotustra>
because it's also big
<the_oz_>
why don't YOU implement it for your particular sbc?
<robotustra>
before start to implement something own, it makes sense to look around and check what ppl already did
<Ermine>
also looks like XY problem
<robotustra>
probably.
<gog>
i know about xy problems :(
<Ermine>
anyway, with 4.19 I've managed to make a kernel image under 1MB
<robotustra>
and I assempled a minimal kernel for x64 from baremetal and some other OS's from osdev and could run it in qemu. but from this kernel to real working system there could be years
<robotustra>
I think the best way is to strip down something already working
<robotustra>
the long story short. Linux is good for development, but I would like to strip down it to use on SBC to reduce it's footprint and save the fuctrionality.
<gog>
its disk footprint maybe
<robotustra>
usually SBC keeps everything in flach
<robotustra>
flash memony
<robotustra>
the less OS occupy, more useful data could be placed in there
<gog>
oh yeah fair
<gog>
does it not have nvme
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<robotustra>
Not all of them have ssd or nvme
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<gog>
at least not an exposed port
<robotustra>
even if they have, still, a couple of gigs whould be nice to have
<robotustra>
also, extenal discs they consume extra electricity which increase total power consumption of robot and is not good for battery powered robots
<Ermine>
build a custom kernel which has only parts relevant for your problems
<Ermine>
it won't save you any power though
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<robotustra>
rebuild kernel is the last step optimization, first step is to get rid of unnecessary dependencies and packages
<robotustra>
I think they take more than kernel
<robotustra>
unfortunately linux packages are too entangled
<robotustra>
usually it leads that you need to install many of them just because of stupid dependencies
<gog>
i guess if it's experimental, then i don't have an argument
<gog>
i thought you were trying to make some kind of appliance
<robotustra>
all BS with userspace and kernelspace it'sfor complex systems
<heat__>
robots are complex systems
<robotustra>
and?
<gog>
you probably want a realtime operating system for something like that anyway
<robotustra>
it doen's mean that OS should be complex
<heat__>
OS complexity matches the users
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<heat__>
you're running a telnet server for your local lan? simple af can do the job
<heat__>
mega http service for a 100 core machine? complex
<robotustra>
I think I need something multitasking DOS x64 which can run tasks on all CPUs
<robotustra>
I'll use UDP communication between nodes
<Ermine>
heat__: what about mega http service on bare metal
<Ermine>
with io and network stack built into it and tailored specifically for the task
<heat__>
super complex?
<Ermine>
maybe it'll less complex than linux + nginx, but there are no such crazy people
<gog>
cuper somplex
<robotustra>
I mean after I debug my software on Linux I can port it or simplify for smaller system, which does only what's needed
<heat__>
i mean whoever's doing that will experience the whole complexity upfront because linux was honed for 30 years while their shit network stack and shit io stack and shit mm and all that haven't
<zid`>
heat__: If you brought brainworms it better have been enough for the whole class
<robotustra>
I definetely don't want to run any web server in the brain of the robot
<robotustra>
but for the future I would like something smaller, but functionally the same
<robotustra>
to replace linux with some other OS
<heat__>
linux is small enough
<gog>
lonix
<gog>
heat
<heat__>
gog
<gog>
can onyx run robot
<Ermine>
no, you don't understand, linux is BLOATED
<heat__>
yes gog
<gog>
does sortix have usb
<the_oz_>
guys, who cares if it'
<zid`>
heat__: Can you do me a tool that counts how many lines of source actually get compiled via my .config, relative to the total number of lines?
<heat__>
hyes Ermine linux is BLOATED glibc is bloated systemd had an affair with my wwife
<the_oz_>
s ring 0, it has no communication implemented
<the_oz_>
it's literally the laughing man
<Ermine>
TIL I'm systemd
<heat__>
zid`, uh no
<the_oz_>
thought whgat'd I'd do is pretend deaf and dumb
<zid`>
heat__: wow, mean
<heat__>
zid`, not sure if there's a makefile target that can run cpp on all C files
<zid`>
trick it into thinking gcc is gcc -E
<heat__>
but if there is, you could do that, then count those lines, then count the .c lines
<heat__>
however, it's not a fair comparison
<kof673>
robotustra, if you look at netbsd look at the rump stuff, but not sure there are good docs
<zid`>
problem with -E is that you end up with all the headers, and two # lines for debug info
<heat__>
cuz then headers get all inlined and shit
<heat__>
yeah
<the_oz_>
you need to learn the asm of the device
<zid`>
we need like, ifdef preprocessing only
<kof673>
robotustra, also not sure if the baremetal rump will do smp etc. have not built or tried any of them, just read about
<zid`>
I only wrote a lexer last week, now I need to write a fucking preprocessor too?
<the_oz_>
become a native of its land
<Ermine>
heat__: did you know that I'm the systemd?
<gog>
for robotics it doesn't really need to be smp i guess
<gog>
you just dedicate a core to drive whatever
<Ermine>
depends on what that robot has inside?
<gog>
yeah
<robotustra>
kof673, in the source code of baremetal the smp is mentioned
<kof673>
for rump specifically i mean? rump uses the normal drivers, but allows slimming down more
<kof673>
normal netbsd should do smp yes, look at rump if you want smaller :D
<robotustra>
for robotics it's more important to have easy IPC, and distribution of tasks over different cpus and cores
<robotustra>
as soon as the tasks schedule is almost the same, the stuff related to dynamic task start/stop and heap allocations is less important
<Ermine>
... so you want to write your custom OS for your tasks
<heat__>
Ermine, yes you have become systemd destroyer of my dreams
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<Ermine>
eh
<robotustra>
Ermine, let's say, after I make everything working on Linux, I'll probably try to write my custom OS. But I understand how big task is. I may have no time for that.
<heat__>
i hate when im falling asleep but then i remember systemd is FUCKING PUSHING THEIR OWN NETWORK DAEMON WHICH DOES DHCP AND DNS AND NETWORK CONFIGURATION AND I GET SO UPSET
<heat__>
WHY WOULD SYSTEMD DO EVERYTHING
<heat__>
WHY DO I NEED TO RUN SYSTEMD-NETWORKD WHEN I COULD RUN COCKBLASTDNSD
<zid`>
I'm listening to the undertale ost, but one ear is the original, and one ear is someone who remade it all from memory
<zid`>
it all goes slowly out of sync because of slightly incorrect bpm and turns into a giant mess
<zid`>
then resets back to normal for the next track
<zid`>
9/10 experience
<zid`>
megalovania is 100% accurate ofc because it's megalovania
<kof673>
robotustra, and i am not saying use netbsd, but if you look at it, look at rump for sure. for freebsd esp. for routers there was tinybsd, nanobsd.... can run from read-only, and use RAMfs for the rest, or make a small writable partition, etc. e.g. i have a freebsd 5.4 or so image, it is like 40M. it is normal freebsd with slimmed down userland, but if you start adding packages/ports again size will go up ;d
<Ermine>
robotustra: well, this chat now lists every option you have. It's now your turn to choose what do you want
<zid`>
I'd recommend a 4-6 month research grant
<Ermine>
but trying to slim down your runtime before you've got your task done is a premature optimization
<kof673>
robotustra, so if you look at freebsd, look at nanobsd and tinybsd and whatever they are called now
<kof673>
some of those are old and likely not maintained, and just a collection of scripts to build a small system, etc.
<Ermine>
heat__: there are people who unironically stand for scripts that just use net-tools to configure stuff directly, without any network managers
<kof673>
you could do similar with linux from scratch surely, just saying if you look at bsd, there are smaller variants
<gog>
maidenlessdnsd
<Ermine>
heat__: tbh networkd seems pointless. Desktops want NetworkManager anyway, ubuntu server comes with netplan, etc
<robotustra>
kof673, thanks
<Ermine>
Desktops = DEs
<zid`>
why do I want a network manager on a desktop
<Ermine>
to have a fancy GUI to configure networking
<zid`>
I want a text file that holds whether I want dhcp or a static ip, on the interface that's physically plugged in and hard to remove
<zid`>
and that'si t
<Ermine>
then ifupdown-ng is sufficient
<robotustra>
Also as I mentioned, the architecrure of all unix like systems suppose that I have at least ring0 and ring3, but I would like to have something really unprotected, to simplify IPC
<zid`>
I'm not sure that's an answer as to why I'd want a network manager
<robotustra>
and avoid syscalls and gatesfrom userspace to kernel space
<Ermine>
I wrote "Desktops = DEs" specially for you, zid`
<zid`>
Thanks?
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<Ermine>
You're welcome?
<robotustra>
:)
<zid`>
I think something has been lost in translation
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<zid`>
ooh do we get heat___ now
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<zid`>
boo
<Ermine>
apparently no
<the_oz_>
johnny 5 is aliiiiive
<Ermine>
robotustra: as said before, if you want to do that kind of things, you got to write custom OS or firmware
<robotustra>
Ermine, sure, that's what I got from conversation, that there is no good candidate to the requirements I want.
<robotustra>
from existin OSes
<kof673>
the_oz_, i think generally maybe 50/50 are old enough to get that joke :D
<the_oz_>
oh you made me sad now
<gog>
grasshopper disassemble
<gog>
reassmble, stephanie
<the_oz_>
*pops in casette tape and walks in the rain*
<the_oz_>
;_;
<gog>
i still have a crush on ally sheedy
<robotustra>
I saw "Short circuit" movie
<Ermine>
heat__: what if I say that unbound is better than resolved
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<heat>
Ermine, you're just wrong
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<heat>
i had to recently configure unbound for onyx. pain.
<heat>
50 trillion config options but only a handful matter for a local resolver
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<heat>
meanwhile for resolved you mostly kind of just create a config file and do dns_servers=1.1.1.1 and let it rip
<heat>
want tls? fuckin idk, tls=yes
<Ermine>
when I've fucked with those there was a vuln on tls=yes or something like that
<bslsk05>
wiki.osdev.org: User:Combuster/Frankenstein's MSVC - OSDev Wiki
<FreeFull>
Apparently at least one person?
<_ngn>
no way bro pulled up wine to just run microsofts shitty compiler
<kof673>
i do have some wine "targets" but that is just cross-compile, have not added msvc. you should "Just" have to use winepath to translate back and forth pathnames and get the correct args
<kof673>
there was an old cygwin/msys like thing, ....UWIN that was not wine-like, ran natively, but included a script to make MSVC and whatever else appear gcc-like args etc.
<kof673>
so that is the real issue IMO
<kof673>
*appear to take gcc-like args. and we are back at libtool j/k
<kof673>
that page actually builds a binutils > --target=i386-elf --enable-targets=i386-coff ...
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