<bslsk05>
www.ebay.com: Mini TF Micro SD Card Module for Arduino ARM AVR | eBay
<geist>
yeah exactly. iirc it's the same pinout
<geist>
though might want to double check
<nikolar>
they just mentioned arduino compatible, so not sure what to go off
<geist>
there's a pair of 6 pin connectors on the right, going to a fairly funky DUART chip
<geist>
68c681
<geist>
which has a few features built in: uart, timer and you can bit bang stuff to do spi
<nikolar>
ah ok
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<nikolar>
i mean if it's spi, i can just connect with wires if the pinout doesn't match
<nikolar>
it should have the same pins anyway, just different ordering
<geist>
right
<geist>
mostly just if you want to directly plug it in or solder it down
<nikolar>
yeah, got it, thanks :)
<nikolar>
well, i bought it :P
<nikolar>
geist: expect me pestering about a bit, if that's ok :)
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<f0lkert>
"The program first loaded off of a disk when booting your computer is known as a" tried "bootloader", "bootsector", "kernel" but what should it be?! (for the forum)
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<zid`>
where's nikolar
<zid`>
I need him to shout KERNAL
<nikolar>
KERNAL
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<f0lkert>
thanks. unfortunately I have to wait an unspecified time now as I tried too often :-)
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<zid`>
I don't think it's the answer :P
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<nikolar>
i assume it would be the bootloader of those you've mentioned
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<f0lkert>
hoping to find others interested in writing networking stacks
<f0lkert>
I wrote an ip stack myself for fun. tcp is a bit shoddy though and it often crashes :-)
<zid`>
I don't think what I wrote counts as a stack
<nikolar>
did you write it on f0lkert linux or do you have an os
<f0lkert>
nikolar: I have no os yet, so it currently attaches itself to a promiscuous networking-device on linux
<nikolar>
that's a fine way to write a network stack if that's what you want
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<f0lkert>
it confuses nmap in the sense that it doesn't recognize it as a known operating system, that was an important goal
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<nikolar>
heh
<nikolar>
i don't know how nmap figures that out
<zid`>
tcp sequence numbers?
<zid`>
I think the randomizers are noticeably different
<nikolar>
maybe
<zid`>
plus the windowing algo is probably different
<zid`>
and maybe whether it responds to pings with packets full of ABCDEF.. or AAAAAA
<zid`>
stuff like that
<nikolar>
yeah fair enough i guess
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<goliath>
AFAIK mainly setting non-sensical combinations of TCP flags and checking out what happens
<zid`>
neat
<nikolar>
heh nice
<zid`>
sort of like how you'd figure out whose mmap or open you were using :P
<nikolar>
kek
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<kof673>
pf (firewall) ha[ds] something like that, so you could do firewall rules using it IIRC
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<zid`>
It does seem fun to try do that though, ngl
<zid`>
If I was seriously going to add tcp/ip to my os, I'd consider doing that first
<zid`>
then porting it over
<zid`>
rather than trying to develop it in-universe
<zid`>
I tell people to do that for memory allocators too, just start with a 1GB arena given to you in userspace by mmap then write your malloc on top of that first
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<f0lkert>
you could port lwip, but what's the fun in that :-)
<nikolar>
indeed
<nikolar>
to both heh
<kof673>
well, it also theoretically lets you write code that works for either situation :D
<zid`>
I'm playing a game and 4 items can drop, 1/25, 1/31, 1/37 and 1/43, I need the 1/43. I have 6, 6, 2, and 0 of them respectively :(
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<sortie>
Gather around young ones, the university of osdev is now in session
<sortie>
What do you want to learn today?
<nikolar>
how do make os?
<zid`>
how 2 mine 4 fish?//
<sortie>
nikolar: cd into the directory and run make :)
<nikolar>
woow
<zid`>
Man, I wanna mine for fish now
<zid`>
it's a shame russian fishing 4 is now illegal to play
<zid`>
and fishing planet is freemium garbage
<sortie>
zid`: First of all you need the mine to be near a large body of water and then carefully drill into water, it may be dangerous when the mine is flooded, but fish mining can commence shortly afterwards
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<rakitin>
zid`: why is it illegal to play?
<zid`>
embargoes
<rakitin>
oh yeah I remember the useless sanctions which actually made the ruble go up in value
<zid`>
can we not
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<geist>
okat woot finally got an identity map working with the 68k
<nikolar>
cool
<nikolar>
are you still doing the weird 68040 page tables
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<geist>
yeah
<kazinsal>
mmmmm, osdev esoterica
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<nikolar>
cool
<nikolar>
are you just porting lk to it, or writing something new
<the_oz>
punch fish, what could be easier?
<geist>
well i already have LK on it for some number of years, just finally wanted tpo write the MMU code
<nikolar>
ah he
<nikolar>
*heh
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<osdev199>
Hi, how to write a simple HDMI driver to display my OS on a second monitor?
<FireFly>
I guess read the spec, and then implement the spec
<FireFly>
dunno how simple it'll be though
<zid`>
Disgusting behaviour
<zid`>
just guess at what the specs say like nintendo did
<nikolar>
You'll first need a GPU driver
<nikolar>
Good luck
<zid`>
well, like nvidia did, for nintendo
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<netbsduser>
update regarding the anti asynchronous io post i shared yesterday: the author has argued that the i/o uring doesn't count as async io "because it just does it in the kernel and makes the interface appear to be asynchronous"
<nikolar>
Loller
<zid`>
nikolar it's happening again :(
<nikolar>
What is
<zid`>
3 drops, 1 drop, 2 drops. I need 2/2/1.
<nikolar>
:(
<zid`>
and the one I have three of is rarer than the one I am missing by 10%, and the one I have double of is 4x as rare
<nikolar>
Good old rng
<zid`>
That's my complaint submitted, it's allowed to drop now
<netbsduser>
oh this is interesting, i never knew this about i/o uring, it has its own private "direct descriptors", like a sort of private namespace of FDs
<netbsduser>
i hope they don't make the same guarantees about direct descriptor allocation as they do for fd allocation, that would indeed be a wasted opportunity
<zid`>
how's that bad?
<zid`>
needs the kernel to do some extra locks to enforce the invariant?
<netbsduser>
if i/o uring has its own descriptor namespace then they won't need to allocate the first free number anymore
<zid`>
yes, you said that that would be a waste
<zid`>
I asked why
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<zid`>
(or rather, the opposite would be the waste)
<netbsduser>
i don't know how to do first-free fd allocation without a big write lock around it
<netbsduser>
perhaps someone else does
<zid`>
swapsies
<nikolar>
zid`: you should automate your game
<zid`>
nikolar: The game automates itself
<zid`>
You only make the major decisions
<netbsduser>
but unless they said that iouring direct descriptors *have* to follow that rule, and in so doing committed it to the abi stability guarantee of linux, they can relax that instead
<heat>
you need a big write lock around it
<zid`>
I don't see how you'd end up having something very asyncy actually care about the ordering
<nikolar>
Yeah
<zid`>
like, if they're fd 47 or they just raced into slot 3
<zid`>
or not
<osdev199>
FireFly: I just downloaded the Specification Version 1.3a of HDMI. Where can I find the initialization and all part?
<zid`>
does a queue count as a 'big write lock'?
<heat>
🧛
<zid`>
I assume so
<netbsduser>
if my io uring is dispatching many opens/closes at once i don't want it to contend more than necessary on the uring direct descriptor table thing
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<zid`>
yea, less contention is gooder
<zid`>
just wondering if you could have the ordering with only *some* contention, at least
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<GeDaMo>
Could you use some kind of eventually consistent system?
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<osdev199>
what is the easiest way to display a png logo file? I tried converting it to bmp and tga respectively and in the second case, I parsed it too. But writing both of them to the graphical linear frame buffer didn't work.
<osdev199>
I'm thinking of converting to and using a raw format that I can directly display to the frame buffer.
<osdev199>
and I'm doing the conversion on my host OS (Linux/Ubuntu) at the moment.
<childlikempress>
i would like embed stb_image or sth
<Ermine>
If you've parsed png, you already have raw bitmap to display
<zid`>
I should get rid of the warning from the png code I wrote that I always reuse
<nikolar>
what's the warning
<osdev199>
childlikempress: I'm doing the similar thing for tga (please see: https://pastebin.com/dJujuR8W). I write the output to a file and delete the first two 4 bytes int that denotes the w and h of the image.
<bslsk05>
pastebin.com: #include <stdio.h>#include <fcntl.h>/** * Parse TGA format into pixels. - Pastebin.com
<zid`>
setjmp related
<osdev199>
Then I write this pixels dump to my file system partition and on writing it to the frame buffer, nothing changes on the full screen.
<zid`>
png.c: In function ‘load_png’:
<zid`>
png.c:29:25: warning: variable ‘rows’ might be clobbered by ‘longjmp’ or ‘vfork’ [-Wclobbered]
<zid`>
imagemagick seems to have had the same bug as me too
<zid`>
leaking rows on longjmp
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<heat>
Ermine, using longjmp for error handling is LITERALLY what goto considered harmful was all about
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<zid`>
why doesn't volatile fix the clobber warning? :/
<Ermine>
heat: yes...
<nikolar>
It's not all that different than exceptions :P
<heat>
yes it is
<Ermine>
SEH SEH SEH SEH
<heat>
gotos are not different from exceptions, sjlj is a global goto
<heat>
usually a sign of terrible code or signals
<Ermine>
or both
<osdev199>
is tga format good for logos?
<Ermine>
Vector formats are better imo
<osdev199>
ok.
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<the_oz>
People who say "YOU'RE USING LANGUAGE WRONG!" make me smile
<the_oz>
Losing battle, always
<_ngn>
what language
<the_oz>
png pronunciation, so english
<the_oz>
some people just prefer sigh gogglin
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<the_oz>
"We made it therefore we dictate it post facto!" Nope.
<_ngn>
whats "sigh gogglin"
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<the_oz>
phonetical appalachian expression
<_ngn>
ive no idea what that means
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<sortie>
Who else here has difficulty finishing their work-in-progress osdev work and instead just launch into a shiny new feature, make that largely work, then leave that as wip to be finished up another time?
<pog>
everything in my life is like this
<pog>
it's called untreated adhd
<GeDaMo>
I suspect that's the majority of people :P
<Ermine>
more like lack of determination to finish the job in my case
<nikolar>
sortie: what's the new shiny feature
<sortie>
nikolar: I'm supposed to be building my networked package management, but that is locked on a looping system for upgrading several systems in a row, which depends on init features, which I'm merging but was blocked on waiting for the nightly releases to go through, so instead I just updated a dozen of my ports to the latest version in a rapid sprint, and now that that's done I can build the init support and daemon, but meanwhile the natively nightly builds
<sortie>
have gotten exceptionally slow (the latest one just took 16 hours) so I'm itching to implement shared memory, optimize execve and fork, and much much more and that's a crazy rabbit hole
<nikolar>
networked package management?
<sortie>
Yeah. You run tix-upgrade(8) and it upgrades you to the latest version of Sortix.
<nikolar>
so a normal package manager then?
<sortie>
Yeah I was stressing the networked part because that part is relatively new in my OS
<nikolar>
Ah sure ok
<nikolar>
It just made it sound like it was some special package manager
<sortie>
The big difficulty is having version X of my OS be forward compatible with version X+1's packaging
<sortie>
Especially if I want to change aspects or add features
<sortie>
So this has been unfinished for years upon years because it's a lot of work to polish the design until the point it's reasonable enough to commit to
<sortie>
Especially since I have a custom binary package format and custom server side file structure
<netbsduser>
sortie: i get something fairly done and then i work on something else and the first something is no longer in my mental working set
<sortie>
My approach is to have a branch where I just dump all of my unfinished stuff when it's good enough and then let it cook in there for a while until it has proven itself stable and I finished the code and then I merge to master
<netbsduser>
so when i look at the first something again i am confronted by a sort of alien thing
<sortie>
That way all my experiments are in there together, stabilizing
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<sortie>
netbsduser: That is actually sort of an advantage? I often get snow blind when I work on code too much, so it's hard to do a proper code review myself
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<jeaye>
My lang's compiler/runtime uses Clang's JIT and relies on dynamic symbol lookup in the ELF binary, so JIT compiled code can call into existing runtime functions. I'm trying to compile a static ELF binary, but that doesn't include the dynamic symbol table, even though all of the symbols are still present. Based on what I can tell, I can't get clang to combine `-rdynamic` with `-static`.
<nikolar>
because those two are pretty much fundementally opposite
<jeaye>
However, since the symbols are all there, in .symtab, I should be able to modify the static ELF to add back in the dynamic symbol table with the same values from .symtab, which will then enable JIT symbol resolution. Looks like lief can do that sort of thing: https://github.com/lief-project/LIEF
<jeaye>
But I wanted to check if anyone knew of any reasons this wouldn't work.
<heat>
there's a funny hack on the linux kernel for that
<heat>
they re-link the kernel 2 or 3 times, it's disgusting
<nikolar>
why
<nikolar>
how does that help
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<heat>
link the kernel - analyze the kernel with a program and spit out a symbols.c - link the kernel - check if it's all stable - if not, relink the kernel
<heat>
(symbols.c is obviously compiled into a symbols.o and included into the next link)
<nikolar>
yuck
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<jeaye>
In my case, I'd need a static ELF to then build an APE with Comso: https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan But I can't sacrifice the JIT linkage abilities, so I'm trying to have both.
<bslsk05>
jart/cosmopolitan - build-once run-anywhere c library (606 forks/17755 stargazers/ISC)
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<heat>
i was reading the qemu 9.1 changelog and briefly got excited thinking they had added lam to x86 TCG
<nikolar>
what was lam again
<heat>
linear address masking
<nikolar>
ah right yeah
<heat>
you can Just Stuff shit into the top 1 or 2 bytes and the cpu won't look at it
<nikolar>
yeah i 'member
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<heat>
there was a patchset some years ago for tcg which added it, but i guess it never got upstreamed
<nikolar>
wonder why
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<sortie>
Place your votes should I become an osdev youtuber and explain bare bones to the masses and make videos about sortix awesomeness and do live streams where I hack on my OS and you can send me prime or whatever on twitch and thank my patreons and market myself as an expert with 13 years of osdev experience and 8 years of google experience
<nikolar>
lol i vote yes
<dinkelhacker>
sure sounds fun
<rbox>
"expert"
<rbox>
rofl
<dinkelhacker>
Reminds me of that tech lead guy that in all his videos mentions every 2 minutes that he is an EX GOOGLE TECH LEAD!!!11!
<sortie>
This video was brought to you by FooVPN. Which I failed to port to Sortix. Fuck those guys.
<dinkelhacker>
lol
<sortie>
Xooglers are the worst. The first thing they do at any new company is reinvent memegen if they don't have an equivalent, and then they complain about all the internal tech the outside world doesn't have
<sortie>
I would know. I'm one
<FireFly>
how much alphabet tech have you reinvented so far?
<childlikempress>
sortie: nah don't do youtube do one of those like shitty tutorial sites
<dinkelhacker>
Did you reinvent memegen at your new company?
<childlikempress>
udemy? pluralsight? idk
<sortie>
rbox: Hehe lots of things I do not know but I do have much more experience than most and definitely know how to steer newcomers down a good path :)
<sortie>
dinkelhacker: I am mildly unemployed but Sortix does need a memegen does it not
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<sortie>
Has anyone ported imagemagick to their OS yet?
<sortie>
Hmm I do have an nginx port, a php port, and a sqlite port
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<Ermine>
port skaware, quick
<GeDaMo>
ffmpeg?
<dinkelhacker>
if you go down the online univerisity route do pluralsight... i have a subscription for that through my company
<sortie>
Yep I have a ffmpeg port
<sortie>
dinkelhacker: oh neat
<sortie>
Cus honestly Sortix would be a killer educational thing
<dinkelhacker>
sortie: I guess everybody needs a memegen
<sortie>
The trick is not the gifs but ensuring the community stays healthy and not toxic
<dinkelhacker>
I mean if you think it would be fun to do it and you have the time, why not? I would certainly watch it. And honestly youtube could need some osdev content imo :D
<sortie>
In practice my time is really limited and I am mildly unemployed
<nikolar>
maybe even get some pocket money
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<sortie>
I did enjoy being the OS course TA in university
<sortie>
Some of the weeks I threw away the official homework and just made my own better homework
<nikolar>
kek nice
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<mjg>
haha man
<sortie>
2011 was a blast
<dinkelhacker>
Shit.. my university didn't even have an OS course.
<mjg>
lol
<sortie>
I had fun sitting in the lecture hall trying to implement OS features faster than the teacher could teach it
<mjg>
my uni had mandatory OS at first semester(!)
<mjg>
however
<dinkelhacker>
nice!
<mjg>
as you can imaigne vast majority not only did not knew fuck about anything
<mjg>
but was not evne interested in learning either
<mjg>
i ended up asking the TA if i have to keep coming to this shit, he said no
<sortie>
When he said 64-bit machines had 64-bit paging I went 'well actually it's 48-bit' and the next lecture started with a whole tangent about x86_64 paging lol
<mjg>
:d
<nikolar>
sortie: sounds like a bunch of fun
<nikolar>
lol
<dinkelhacker>
well we had some os stuff where they teached you what a mutex is and like high level scheduling algorithms but not how things work.
<mjg>
dawg
<mjg>
anything truly technical at uni is notoroiusly bogus
<sortie>
They kinda canceled the course a couple years later and merged it into other stuff
<sortie>
The course had so many flaws honestly, a lot attributed to the teacher imo
<sortie>
Who was mostly trying to do his research and also did this
<mjg>
well
<sortie>
We were colleagues at the big G for 8 years after that lol
<mjg>
lol
<dinkelhacker>
Actually most of the courses skipped the fun stuff. I remember beeing really disapponted when I realized that the compiler course is basically "how to use lex and yacc"
<mjg>
dinkelhacker: per my above remark, unis suck
<mjg>
the good news is that at a decent and up uni you can laregly make up your own program
<nikolar>
dinkelhacker: our compiler course project was to use a lexer/parser generator for java
<sortie>
I would do an osdev course with alternating weeks, where in odd weeks one would make their own OS following bare bones, and in even weeks one would play with Sortix as an advanced operating system that mortals can easily hack and understand
<dinkelhacker>
true...allthough I had one course on "foundations of programming languages" that really turned out to be foundational.
<nikolar>
and then we had to use the visitor pattern to visit all of the parsed nodes to generate code, which means you can't choose the order you emit stuff
<mjg>
so here is an example
<nikolar>
so there was a lot of hacking around that to actually emit functuoning code
<sortie>
The Uni course had us newbies hacking on an old Linux 2.2 VM and it was terrible
<mjg>
suppose you have this compile course which is de facto yacc + lex
<sortie>
No modern editors, ssh, etc.
<mjg>
you go to the person running the course and tell them it's all loller and you want to do a project
<mjg>
for example write a kek language or some DSLs
<mjg>
you get to learn and skip the lol material
<sortie>
Naturally I started with like gcc 2-3 and then bootstrapped my way up to a modern gcc 4 at the time with a whole modern userland with emacs and ssh, then gave that to my students when I was the TA
<mjg>
i had literally 0 people reject the idea of a project instead of attendance
<mjg>
(and exam if applicable)
<mjg>
to be fair though i ended up not finishing uni :D
<mjg>
so
<sortie>
Okay that is one uni protip if I ever heard one
<nikolar>
mjg: well this was a project, and it was mandatory
<mjg>
nikolar: you tell the person it's a stupid fucking project
<dinkelhacker>
mjg: I guess that would have been impossible in germany. They would have told you that the rules in this and that document say that all students have to do a written exam blablabla...
<mjg>
nikolar: except phrase it that there was something in hte same space you were interestd in
<nikolar>
i am pretty sure they are aware, because it's impossible to do without stupid hacks
<nikolar>
mjg: oh that's not a thing we can do
<nikolar>
you get given a thing you have to do and that's graded, you can't pick anything
<mjg>
have you even tried
<mjg>
dinkelhacker: that is plausible, cultures 'n shit
<nikolar>
nope, i wasn't really going to lectures lol
<nikolar>
jstu wanted to get it over rwith
<mjg>
well mon
<dinkelhacker>
mjg: yea we love our bureaucracy
<jeaye>
mjg: I tried a normal uni for about 6 months and saw the same thing. The professor actually offered to me that I could just keep working on my project as long as I presented it to the class at the end.
<mjg>
jeaye: ye
<nikolar>
that's not an option here, they are completely disinterested
<nikolar>
and just want you to do what you're told
<jeaye>
mjg: But when I went to a trade school for gamedev, they wouldn't allow something like that. It was too rigorous.
<mjg>
so this stuff aside, in polish unis there is also a notion of "individual study program" (idk how to translate it)
<nikolar>
and how you're told
<mjg>
except to qualify you have to have something stupid like win a math olympiad
<mjg>
but should you do that, you literally pick everything
<mjg>
within reason ofc
<dinkelhacker>
I had one prof who's lecture was him writing his course material word for word on the chalkboard... that was all he did
<dinkelhacker>
people just attended to copy it ...
<mjg>
dinkelhacker: per teh "unis suck" remark, a lot of the staff is tenured deadwood
<sortie>
ugh
<jeaye>
sortie: I'd be interested in the YT content, personally. There isn't much on YT in that space and even less by those who've actually done it.
<sortie>
jeaye: I never looked, I would imagine it was full of garbage content for newbies
<jeaye>
Yeah, I think everyone just goes surface level.
<jeaye>
sortie: Did you have any input on my static ELF with dynamic symbol table question?
<sortie>
I know a lot of people learn off Youtube and that's time but I also avoid that like the plague and go straight to authoritative sources in text
<sortie>
jeaye: Oh I never heard it
<mjg>
that's elitist of you sortie
<nikolar>
lol
<dinkelhacker>
The guy who wrote Serenity OS is on yt but I never watched his stuff.
<sortie>
mjg: Yes I do know I am leet.
<sortie>
That was never up for debate
<jeaye>
Asked about an hour ago. Wanted to see the viability of my idea.
<rbox>
dinkelhacker: serenity by jan?
<mjg>
rbox: too mainstream of a joke
* mjg
<-- elitist
<jeaye>
sortie: If you're targeting zoomers (the next gen of osdevs, I suppose), video content becomes pretty important.
<mjg>
ye
<mjg>
so the problem is that the people who are most interestd in providing tuts 'n shit are people who are just starting
<nikolar>
i am a zoomer, and i did learn some stuff on youtube, but much more was just in text
<mjg>
and their stuff necessarily terrible
<mjg>
the people who got past the total basics are notoriously not interested in putting effort into edcuating
<mjg>
which is a shame
<dinkelhacker>
and also the people who should do the tutorials are too busy dooing real work
<sortie>
jeaye: No answer to your question. I tend to understand it. You may just want to compile and link like it's shared linking withy -fpic -fpie or what the magic options are to do static position independent execuatbles
<sortie>
I know something like that is an actual thing
<mjg>
it does not help that beginners are told writing a fucken' tutorial helps them understand the material
<mjg>
8((
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<sortie>
mjg: Wait who says that?
<jeaye>
sortie: Thanks for taking a look. I'll continue digging. There is a -static-pie flag, which I've tried, though it lead to some x86 cpu feature fn linker errors and I didn't push deeper on that yet.
<dinkelhacker>
right.. the other day I watched some random videos on youtoube and one was like "OOP sucks and this is why". And they guy starts with the sentence "this is the most important video you will ever watch".... I'm amazed how condident some people are about themselfes lol
<jimbzy>
I think it's part of the "watch one, do one, teach one" method.
<sortie>
mjg: I did invest a lot of effort into editing the osdev wiki to make it peer reviewed for all the beginner tutorials
<sortie>
So there was a good way to start
<sortie>
Any tutorial of mine would warn people to stay away from tutorials that have not been peer reviewed or cannot be edited
<mjg>
haha
<mjg>
while i agree
<mjg>
this is the kind of talk which gets you in trouble
<sortie>
With whom?
<mjg>
normies are deeply offended by the idea that random ass tuts are shite
<sortie>
I'm like the dean of the university of osdev
<mjg>
and you seem to be putting yourself above some people
<mjg>
which is again a nogo
<sortie>
Haters gonna hate. At the end of the day, the beautiful popstars are running into my arms.
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<sortie>
The glamerous osdev life
<mjg>
fuck the haters for sure
<mjg>
just sayin'
<nikolar>
sortie: imma need a fact check on that :P
<mjg>
normie-friendly approach would be to emphasise how much effort you put into it and other tuts, while FUCKING AMAZING, are perhaps lacking
<mjg>
you can't tell a normie fuck their idea is wrong
<mjg>
you have to prefix with "interesting idea"
<mjg>
fucking life man
<heat>
hey chat are we depessimizing this code
<heat>
chat should we port mongodb? it would totally be poggers right guys
<heat>
it just crashed F's in the chat guys
<mjg>
watching programming streams is worse than watching boobie streamers
<heat>
"why did our game flop" "because consumers are wrong"
<Celelibi>
Don't get into an argument that's been going on for a while.
<sortie>
mjg: First thing, number one, to teach people starting osdev is that there's right and wrong and the machine is reality and debugging is science and you need to accept that you are sometimes wrong and find out how to get right. If they are not ready for that, they are not ready for osdev, and they are not ready yet to move past novice programmer
<dinkelhacker>
heat: genious, right? :D
<Celelibi>
Unless you get joy from it.
<mjg>
sortie: well number 0 is to find people who can even get the message
<mjg>
sortie: cause rest assured vast majority could not give less of a fuck
<nikolar>
can confirm ^^^
<mjg>
so separate people who are toing to get somewhere from the webdev
<sortie>
mjg: I absolutely hear you. This is such a basic, basic concept to us, yeah? But when I was a TA in introduction to programming languages I got into trouble over it. A student asked for help because they had an issue. I casually said "Alright. Your code is wrong. I'll come over." They actually got offended by that remark.
<Ermine>
separating those people away is what first session should do
<heat>
Ermine, common dave airlie W
<mjg>
sortie: see what i said about normies
<sortie>
It got reported and all or something. I had to have a little follow up session with my class to talk it through and explain this concept
<mjg>
the culture diff aside, they really don't care man
<mjg>
like AT ALL
<Celelibi>
sortie, students can get many things wrong, not just their code.
<sortie>
mjg: Sure, as an educator our job here was to take these people and teach them these essential concepts fast. Or they're not gonna make it. Many did not.
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<sortie>
The problem was that they heard a statement about their code and considered it a value statement about their person, yeah?
<Celelibi>
So classic.
<mjg>
tbf it was probably accurate for the person
<mjg>
:d
<sortie>
"Your code is wrong" was understood as "You are bad at programming" which is absolutely not the same statement and in being bad is expected of newbies and that's good and fine
<Ermine>
I've once tried to watch lina's content, and the only takeaway was that she's genius and I'm dumb
<sortie>
mjg: I don't even remember which student it was but they were fine
<heat>
i'm not watching a vtuber, much less a programming vtuber
<heat>
fuck me
<mjg>
how about a boobie vtuber
<nikolar>
my friend at uni once asked a lecturer how to do sometihng without an ide because he wanted to understand how it works
<sortie>
heat: It's what's on Youtube. You have to watch it.
<Ermine>
boobie programming vtuber
<nikolar>
and the lecturer was like "why'd you do that, no one uses cli nowadays"
<sortie>
heat: You tune into my #sortix ramblings all day anyway
<Celelibi>
Oh, yeah, now I remember, I came to read this channel because I got HL'ed with boobies. xD
<Ermine>
heat: fuck you, take a look at her
<sortie>
nikolar: I prefer sti
<heat>
sortie, get into a skimpy outfit and into a pool and now we're talking
<mjg>
i prefer stac
<nikolar>
sortie: sti?
<mjg>
nikolar: interrupts mon
<mjg>
enable disable
<mjg>
an osdev dad joke
<sortie>
heat: Sexy osdever calendar yeah
<nikolar>
oh i am dumb, i typed cli
<nikolar>
sure
<Ermine>
#osdev went horny
<dinkelhacker>
<canofworms>
<cow>
lmao
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<mjg>
worm of cans
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<sortie>
can of cans of worms
<nikolar>
that's a lot of worms
<Ermine>
worm of cans of worms
<jimbzy>
How about pick & mix worms instead?
<jimbzy>
nikolar, I ran into that a lot, too.
<nikolar>
which part
<jimbzy>
"That's the old way!!!"
<jimbzy>
Yeah, but it works.
<jimbzy>
Wanting to know how to do something without the ide.
<nikolar>
and literally everyone serious still uses it
<nikolar>
or at least knows how to
<Ermine>
uses what
<nikolar>
command line
<nikolar>
instead of big green play button
<jimbzy>
My one professor was in love with OOP.
<nikolar>
lol
<Ermine>
show them Microsoft Windows Server Core
<Ermine>
and see how they will dance there
<jimbzy>
He actually worked for MS if I'm not mistaken.
<jimbzy>
It didn't help I was like 20 years older than his typical students and had been dabbling with programming for as long.
<Ermine>
Maybe he was working as a cleaner...
<nikolar>
lol
<jimbzy>
Ermine, Possible. XD
<jimbzy>
I had a really cool professor before him, though. Dude was a perl programmer for MCI. To him, line noise was valid input.
<jimbzy>
I pop in every few weeks, switch the current discussion to something completely unrelated, and then disappear for a while. ;)
<dinkelhacker>
I bow in reverence.
<jimbzy>
Been at it for like 25 years now.
<nikolar>
lol nice
<jimbzy>
I'm no zid, but I try.
<nikolar>
kek
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<dinkelhacker>
if you sshed from tmux into a server and opened tmux there. How do you send commands to the inner tmux?
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<rbox>
tmuxception
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<dinkelhacker>
oh shoot its actually just ctrl+b ctrl+b command_to_the_inner_tmux.
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<childlikempress>
also enter ~~ for nested ssh sessions
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<heat>
enter ctrl+d for a special tmux mode where it starts playing pong
<geist-sdf>
i should connect to irc with 300 baud
<geist-sdf>
that probably has a special retro feeling
<nikolar>
kek
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<geist>
just watched a usagi vid with a 300 buad cute terminal
<nikolar>
yeah i want the thing lol
<geist>
i guess i could put the pdp11 into 300 baud, but it's a little difficult to set the switch and i'm afraid i'll break it since it's pretty fragile
<geist>
it has a rotary switch on the back that's falling apart
<nikolar>
sad :(
<geist>
nah it works fine, just dont wasnt to break it
<nikolar>
lol
<geist>
it has a complicated set of rotary brushes inside such that the position of the switch it's walking through a binary sequence
<nikolar>
ah yeah i've heard of those
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<geist>
yah presumably the center of the wheel is tied to ground and it's selectively tugging down one of 3 or 4 radial traces via a set of wipers
<nikolar>
yeah
<geist>
but IIRC the console uart on the pdp11/53 can't be set by software, the divider there off whatever the main clock is (19200 is the max baud) is fixed by the switch
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<geist>
it's not a fully proper uart i think, just for console purposes. if you want more uarts on it you should get a proper board
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<nikolar>
cool
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