klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<kazinsal> recapped the floppy riser board for my PS/2, and now the drives actually spin up! ...except now I've realized I don't have a USB to PS/2 keyboard adapter, fgsfds
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<sortie> xenos1984: How did it go? :D
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<sortie> It's another day in osdev debugging the impossible bugs
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<sortie> Today in sortie osdev fun: mmap failed due to an out of memory but the system is not out of memory. Turns out buggy code elsewhere put the 0x0 page on the list of available physical frames.
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<nikolar> Nice
<xenos1984> sortie: Well, one participant asked: "What kind of letters are that? From India or something oriental?" when he saw trianglix :D
<sortie> :D
<xenos1984> sortie: But in general it went fine :) We had > 30 participants, mostly interested in Linux, some also in BSD, and some just curious about the other systems I showed them - mostly Haiku raised a bit more interest.
<sortie> Woohoo :D
<xenos1984> And I mentioned that Sortix is self-hosting and has full gcc toolchain support :)
<sortie> Did you show off any Sortix stuff besides trianglix?
<nikolar> What's trianglix
<sortie> nikolar: Nobody can be told what the Trianglix is. It's a revolutionary experience.
<nikolar> Lol
<xenos1984> Not really... I just went briefly through all OS I had setup on the big screen and then offered to show more at my computer if anyone wants to see it, but they mostly went to the laptops we offered for installing and trying out different Linux distros.
<sortie> :D
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<xenos1984> ...and I was mainly at a cubietruck running a VNC client to connect to a VM where a colleague tried getting X running on DragonflyBSD :D
<xenos1984> Oh, and also PonyOS raised some interest :D
<Ermine> Symbol mfbQueryBestSize from module .../vmware_drv.o is unresolved!
<Ermine> Lazy bindings strike back!
<Ermine> X11 is great
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<heat_> Ermine, i thought that's all fixed these days?
<mcrod> hi
<Ermine> heat_: yes apparently
<Ermine> red hat 6 just prints "01" in loop
<heat_> oh cute, a hobby os!
<mcrod> this cat is weird
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<nikolar> lol
<heat_> i'm not a cap
<heat_> cat
<heat_> i am stupid though
<Ermine> heat_: I mean, that unresolved symbol is from xfree86 god-knows-which-version
<heat_> ah okay
<heat_> today in bad: gn breaks my build with gcc 14 because they compile with fucking werror
<mjg> gn?
<Ermine> generate ninja
<heat_> one of the 200 google build systems
<heat_> and one i got grifted into using and intensely regret
<Ermine> time for meson?
<heat_> nah
<mjg> you got what
<heat_> i need to keep using gnu make on the kernel's side, anything else should be a build system that orchestrates package building
<heat_> so, uh, make as well?
<heat_> fuck do i know, i'm not a build system guy
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<Ermine> I thought gn is only for packages and usystem?
<heat_> yes
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<heat> bottom line is that my build system is a mess and this is a complicated problem i dunno how to solve
<Ermine> maybe it's not as messy as that of dd-wrt or of BSDs
<heat> well, they solve the exact same problem, but better
* mjg burps
<heat> here's when the mjg tells us the BSD build system is CRAP
<mjg> build ssystems are a notorious tire fire
<heat> i'm aware
<mjg> you would think someone would create a better one by now
<mjg> cue that xkcd about competing standards
<Ermine> it's not that xkcd 927, it's that they all suck in their own way probably
<heat> soalris has O_CLOFORK
<heat> we must adapt or otherwise be obsoleted by great solaris
<mjg> no tonly that
<mjg> ILLUMOS also got cloroform
<mjg> linux is behind like twice now
<heat> linux has cloroform
<heat> it's call cloro_range
<heat> glibc also provides closefrom
<mjg> that's not the same thing mofer
<mjg> not even close
<mjg> fwiw solaris closefrom or an equivalent
<mjg> and it is peak geezer
<heat> why is it not the same thing?
<mjg> they walk /proc/self/fd
<mjg> :d
<mjg> are you for real mofer
<heat> yes
<mjg> there is a race where a fd can survive on fork
<mjg> an fuck you dup
<mjg> up
<mjg> as in closing it after fork is already too late
<mjg> hence clofork: you don't even get that fd
<mcrod> i can't believe i never used memchr until today
<heat> sure?
<mcrod> well yesterday
<mjg> loller
<mjg> 15356 closefrom(INT_MAX) misbehaves and closes all descriptors
<mjg> :d
<mjg> - (void) close(low++);
<mjg> + (void) close(low);
<mjg> haha
<mjg> well full func:
<mjg> - (void) close(low++);
<mjg> + (void) close(low); (void) fdwalk(void_close, &low);
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<mjg> haha fuck me
<mjg> their fdwalk fallback is next level shite
<mjg> good grief
<heat> question is does any closefrom user need it to be fast?
<bslsk05> ​github.com: illumos-gate/usr/src/lib/libc/port/gen/closefrom.c at master · illumos/illumos-gate · GitHub
<mjg> mofo
<mjg> plz
<mjg> the entire point of closefrom is to be fast
<mjg> check out the fallback
<heat> but how fast?
<heat> i know systemd uses this
<mjg> the primary fucking point is to not walk all available fd slots
<mjg> for example turns out you only need to close NOTHING?
<mjg> well you only paid one syscall
<mjg> if correctly implemented
<heat> >alloca
<heat> nope nope nope nope
<mjg> instead in their code they pay to open a directory
<mjg> then to readdir
<mjg> like fuck me
<heat> >6521689 closefrom() does not close all file descriptors
<mjg> interestingly someone with a partially functioning brain showed up later and implemented F_NEXTFD or something
<mjg> but that's solaris-only
<mjg> heh raf?
<mjg> was that roger faulkner?
<heat> solaris is what happens when someone uses more than 10% of their brain
<mjg> did you mean less
<mjg> i could see how someof the code would be written with like 7.5 IQ
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<mjg> i would love to read that PSARC, curious if it justifies not adding a syscall with "lmao can emulate with procfs!"
<mjg> chances are this was raf all along
<mjg> + /*
<mjg> + * to open the /proc file descriptor directory due
<mjg> + * all file descriptors being currently used up.
<mjg> + * Close lowfd right away as a hedge against failing
<mjg> + */
<mjg> working around a self-induced problem
<froggey> the unix way!
<heat> was just reading his procfs paper
<mjg> :D
<mjg> proc tracing is another tirefire
<heat> man they really got all procfs entries to be ioctls
<mjg> i don't know if anyone came up with a sane model
<heat> LINUX
<mjg> this is a genuinely non-trivial problem
<heat> linux's procfs is probably alright unless you're looking for great performance
<mjg> oh heh no closefrom in osux
<mjg> lol
<mjg> n/c
<heat> north carolina yes i agree
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<mjg> i think i can write down like 3-4 ideas to have openbsd in a nutshell
<mjg> and by ideas i mean stuff which is just plain bad
<mjg> one of them is getdtablecount
<mjg> int
<mjg> sys_getdtablecount(struct proc *p, void *v, register_t *retval)
<mjg> {
<mjg> *retval = p->p_fd->fd_openfd;
<mjg> return (0);
<mjg> }
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<heat> what's that system call for?
<mjg> get the count of opened fds in a proc
<mjg> curproc
<heat> yes, but what is it needed for
<mjg> they do that to know if they can afford to open
<mjg> or accept()
<heat> yikes
<mjg> it's basically stupid
<mjg> liek
<mjg> for real
<heat> if (getdtablecount() < getdtablesize()) open(); else return -EMFILE;
<heat> ROBUST CODING
<mjg> fore xample their httpd
<heat> this is what the rust developers would've wanted
<mjg> if (getdtablecount() + reserve +
<mjg> errno = EMFILE;
<mjg> *counter >= getdtablesize()) {
<mjg> return (-1);
<mjg> }
<mjg> sinusoid if ((ret = accept4(sockfd, addr, addrlen, SOCK_NONBLOCK)) > -1) {
<Ermine> > register_t
<mjg> fuckyou_t
<mjg> anyway
<Ermine> mofo_t
<heat> struct mofer
<mjg> struct mon
<heat> moferat2
<mjg> fmoferat2
<heat> moferx
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<heat> mjg, mon why was like all of redhat CC'd on that dirtycow bug
<heat> you're there!!
<mjg> what
<bslsk05> ​bugzilla.redhat.com: 1384344 – (CVE-2016-5195, DirtyCow) CVE-2016-5195 kernel: mm: privilege escalation via MAP_PRIVATE COW breakage
<heat> maybe this takes you back
<Ermine> I don't see mjg there
<heat> mguzik
<mjg> rh bugzilla was notoriously spammy
<mjg> to the point where you could not read that mail
<mjg> i had nothing to do wit hthat one
<mjg> and i see names on there which could not even if they tried
<mjg> i have 0 recollection of that sucker anyway
<nikolar> it was kind of big
<mjg> not as big as your mom's ass
<heat> OH DAMN
* mjg channeling bill burr at philly
<Ermine> OH MY GOD
<nikolar> :(
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<Ermine> Fwiw WebOS OSE runs everything as root
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<heat> real root or container root?
<Ermine> can I deduce that from ps output?
<heat> do you see a real init?
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<Ermine> yes
<heat> ok it's probably real root then
<heat> terrible news given my tv runs webOS
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<geist> heh that's terrible, however at least everything is running as javacript
<geist> Ermine: where did youread that it runs everything as root?
<Ermine> geist: in ps aux output
<geist> fun fact: i worked at Palm on webos. but that was two owners ago
<geist> ie, HP got palm and then sold it to LG
<geist> so who knows
<Ermine> well, there are some processen which run as other users, but overall situation is sad
<geist> most of my contributions there i dont think are still around. i wrote the bootloader (bootie the bootloader) and novacom
<geist> novacom may still be around, but i'm pretty sure they use 'standard' bootloaders
<Ermine> They use Yocto now, at least for OSE and LuneOS
<Ermine> idk if it comes with bootloader or not
<geist> but the general gist of webos, if it's not obvious, is that the ui is directly running in javascript on top of some web engine
<geist> which i guess doesn't sound so exotic now does it, but it was a little different in 2008
<geist> a *little* different. there were other things that had done it
<geist> but at least in palm webos devices i think it was basically one bigass process that held all the user javascript
<Ermine> they support Qt also
<geist> which at the time wasn't particularly exotic either since this was still the era when firefox (and chrome if it existed) was running one big process for all your windows and tabs
<Ermine> Using JS for all of that is not the best idea
<geist> it was a bit ahead of it's time in the sense that ARM hardware in 2008 was not sufficiently powerful to really drive javascript
<Ermine> our TV terminates apps from time to time because it goes out of memory
<geist> single core, arm11tdmi and later cortex-a8, etc
<Ermine> also it's fucking MIPS
<geist> ahaha
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<Ermine> and generally the interface is sluggish also
<mjg_> you got x working on that old debian?
<geist> although honestly i think that's a common thing across every TV maker on every TV os i've ever seen
<geist> it's always underpowered
<Ermine> mjg_: no I gave up
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<mjg_> haha
<mjg_> Ermine: then think of people who needed to get that shit to work to use linux
<mjg_> back in the day
<mjg_> it was always a massive PITA
<Ermine> So we concede that Linux was total crapper back then
<mjg_> this aspect is mostly x11
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<mjg_> stupid fucking piece of shit which could not die fast enough
<Ermine> Ah
<Ermine> Hopefully linux could handle IDE drives of that time
<Ermine> btw, X got running during RH6 installation
<Ermine> but then installed rh6 didn't boot
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<mjg_> :d
<mjg_> anything red hat is trashfire to this day mon
<mjg_> even competent red hat devs don't use the fucking system
<Ermine> do they use onyx?
<mjg_> last i checked it was hurd
<Ermine> They should rejoice then, since rust got ported on rust
<Ermine> on hurd*
<Ermine> jokes aside, there are people that praise RHEL
<Ermine> (outside of redhat)
<mjg_> i know
<mjg_> fuck em
<mjg_> fucking lollers
<mjg_> most people inside of redhat are not even qualified to comment
<Ermine> hehe
<netbsduser> i have met a loud minority of people (spoken to them in a kind of chatroom platform called Discord) who insist that red hat is the father of the linux desktop, whatever that's meant to mean, and everyone should use red hat based linuxes like red hat enterprise or fedora core
<Ermine> Well, redhat has large influence on linux, including desktop
<netbsduser> some stuff about how red hat modernised linux by inventing pipewyre, wayland, systemd, dbus, etc
<Ermine> pipewire's developer from redhat
<Ermine> Lennartie was also from redhat
<Ermine> wayland was conceived by intel guy
<gog> whatever you feel about these projects, they're all integral to the ecosystem now and aren't going anywhere
<gog> udev and dbus were necessary advancements in device and IPC
<Ermine> and there are independent people which contribute(d) to wayland
<gog> pipewire brings together the two houses of audio services, jack and pulse
<netbsduser> i disdain and deprecate the linux desktop stack anyway so it's no skin off my back
<gog> that's fine too
<Ermine> I wouldn't be surprised if dbus devs are also from redhat
<netbsduser> i just copy the things i like from the kernel and tolerate the other stuff if it runs on my kernel
<netbsduser> Ermine: yes, i think it was none other than havoc pennington who invented dbus as a compromise between KDE's D-Cop and GNOME's BONOBO
<netbsduser> they wanted to put it into the linux kernel, you know
<Ermine> they failed
<netbsduser> there was going to be a new SOCK_DBUS
<mjg_> i remember that
<Ermine> udev is partly done by gregkh iirc
<mjg_> fucking terrible
<netbsduser> but the authors insisted on a sort of SCM_RIGHTS analogue, something called like SCM_CAPABILITIES, that would attach a string description of the posix capabilities held by the sender of the message, so that the receiver could decide things to do based on that
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<netbsduser> that feature was given a pounding on the lkml for misunderstanding what the point of posix capabilities is
<heat> oooooooooooh linux desktop convo!
<heat> bingo!
<heat> we need a bingo card
<Ermine> More of redhat convo imo
<Ermine> 86Box can handle red hat 6 apparently
<netbsduser> i think it was a systemd request because systemd actually reads /proc/$pid/whatever file has capabilitise in it, to look at what capabilities the sender of a dbus message has
<netbsduser> and it makes authentication decisions based on that
<heat> ideas for bingo card squares: C, C++, Rust, Linux desktop, systemd, openbsd, solaris
<netbsduser> i love solaris
<heat> petting
<netbsduser> i am going to do rwlocks inspired by them one of these days with turnstiles
<Ermine> x vs wayland
<mjg_> ['] to performance
<netbsduser> i like their rwlocks because they're word sized (the turnstiles are embedded in the thread structure)
<Ermine> heat: musl!
<heat> X11 is goated wayland murdered my family
<mjg_> that's is kind of standard
<gog> rust++
<mjg_> it's how they went about which sucks terribly
<heat> the redhat-poettering-gregkh complex skinned my cat alive
<gog> the year of the rust linux rewrite
<mjg_> 8(
<mjg_> "bad ideas for $100"
<mjg_> the year of rust in the linux kernel innit
<netbsduser> i think they at least do a bit of adaptive spinning for the rwlocks under the right circumstances
<mjg_> nope
<mjg_> they eplicitly do nothing
<mjg_> what they do have is a spin loop to help sparc(!)
<mjg_> because too many cpus read-locking at the same time was causing stalls
<mjg_> :dd
<mjg_> so they artificially delay it
<heat> who's this mjg_ guy?
<mjg_> heat: ASSHOLE
<mjg_> is who
<heat> if mjg found out you were slandering him he'd be pretty upset
<mjg_> idk he may be into it
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<netbsduser> the ambitions to put linux into rust seem to have been quenched a bit
<mjg_> do you think larry is putting rust into solaris?
<netbsduser> he is letting solaris rust
<netbsduser> the illuminati are another matter, oxide even allude to rust with their name
<Ermine> heat: more ideas: bryan cantril, openvms
<heat> who's this linus guy and why did he name himself after linux?
<netbsduser> (though the funny thing is that rust explicitly deny that their name refers to iron oxides and instead claim it refers to none other than a frightful fungus responsible for a lot of crop failures)
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<bslsk05> ​'' - ''
<Ermine> also: onyx
<heat> what's the problem with onyx kernel
<heat> do you want a fight? i'll fight you
<heat> i watch a _lot_ of UFC and i'm ready to d'arce choke your ass
<gog> honestly the effort to put rust into the linux kernel didn't make a lot of sense to me
<Ermine> add it to bingo card plox
<mjg_> gog: lol
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<mjg_> it did not have the right people working on it
<gog> like wasn't there a whole idea to allow limited c++ into the kernel at some point and it was abandoned entirely immediately
<mjg_> from standing POV
heat is now known as mjg
<gog> because of fundamental differences in the standards
<mjg> in the 90s yeah gog
mjg is now known as heat
<Ermine> 233MHz is not enough for gnome. BLOATED
<gog> no i'm talking more recently
<heat> nah
<gog> iirc there was discussion about it again
<nortti> Ermine: which version of gnome / what kinda cpu?
<gog> maybe i'm remembering wrong
<gog> like in the mid 00's
<heat> there was an april fools about it
<heat> this year
<gog> ohhhhh
<gog> no not this year
<heat> and some discussion, which obviously went nowhere
<gog> but maybe it was a joke and i missed it
<heat> Ermine, musl bingo
<Ermine> nortti: 1.x, cpu is some intel celeron emulated by 86box
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* mjg_ burps
<heat> bugtracker, malloc, string ops, __MUSL__, mailing list sucks, glibc bad, systemd, BLOATED
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<Ermine> bugtracker and 'MLs suck' is kinda one thing
<heat> no, that mailing list in particular is terribad
<nortti> Ermine: that's curious, I remember gnome 2.x being fairly usable on a 450MHz pII still
<nortti> how much RAM have you got?
<heat> everyone ends up in my spam and they don't support tls
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<Ermine> I'll set it to 433Mhz
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* Ermine makes awkward face since my mailer doesn't support sending mails by tls
<Ermine> s/my/his/
<bslsk05> ​* Ermine* makes awkward face since his mailer doesn't support sending mails by tls
<Ermine> which package manager frontend was red hat 6? It's not yum or dnf
<heat> s/.*/kernal/E
<bslsk05> ​<Ermine*> kernalkernal
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<heat> what the heck is up with that sed
<heat> test? test? test.
<heat> s/.*/test2/
<bslsk05> ​<heat*> test2test2
<Ermine> wat
<heat> test. test.
<heat> s/.*/test2/
<bslsk05> ​<heat*> test2test2
<heat> i think it interprets punctuation?
<heat> test, test
<heat> s/.*/test2/
<bslsk05> ​<heat*> test2test2
<shikhin> a
<shikhin> s/.*/b/
<bslsk05> ​<shikhin*> bb
<shikhin> (I think it's a known bug, though, forget why exactly it happens.)
<heat> huh.
<Ermine> does it take \n into account?
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<Ermine> on 433MHz gnome is palatable
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