klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<zid`> valve officially sick of wayland's shit
<zid`> has dropped their protocol as an extension and said "Implement this if you want, we're doing it anyway"
<nikolar> zid`: what are you referring to
<bslsk05> ​gitlab.freedesktop.org: vulkan/wsi/wayland: Use frog-fifo-v1 protocol for FIFO (!31329) · Merge requests · Mesa / mesa · GitLab
<nikolar> to be fair, i really dislike the way wayland is being run
<zid`> dw, we're only 16 years in so far
<nikolar> ke
<nikolar> ke
<nikolar> dang
<zid`> wayland is now older than xorg was
<nikolar> than xorg was when?
<nikolar> when wayland started or something?
<zid`> when wayland was born yea
<nikolar> i mean xorg built on decades of history prior
<nikolar> wayland is a clean slate (and it's not good lol)
<zid`> and wayland threw it out then argued about how circular wheels are old
<zid`> maybe they should be up to the user, so they can leverage better shaped wheels
<nikolar> i mean there were a lot of ways you could've built "modern X"
<nikolar> we just ended up in the bad timeline i guess
<zid`> if someone had just gone "What if X, but we standardize on the extension set that current clients actually use, and make sure it has the same locking prims a gpu driver wants" it'd have been a 4 year project
<nikolar> oh but zid`, don't you want 90% of the things that are required for functioning desktop to be optional extensions
<nikolar> that need to be reimplemented by every wayland compositor
<nikolar> to varying degrees of success
<zid`> They can still have their extensions
<zid`> but at least there'd be some core shit that actually worked
<nikolar> nah, you need external programs like pipewire for screen sharing (basically baking it into the standard)
<nikolar> or dbus for the whole permission system junk (basically baking dbus into the standard)
<zid`> they'll get
<zid`> working copy paste ONE day
<zid`> I'd love to handle tha tech support call "I can't paste into this window" "Ah, your problem there is that that window is gtk and you copied the text from a kde window"
<nikolar> Lol ok that's not really an issue
<zid`> It is
<nikolar> The whole thing is just a big mess and I hate the way it's handled
<zid`> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=459389 there's a bunch of these
<bslsk05> ​bugs.kde.org: 459389 – Copy and paste do not work in Wayland when using some text editors in konsole and some applications
<zid`> because it's complicated
<zid`> X also has copy paste issues
<zid`> It's just.. sort of what happens when every feature of the DE is handled by a different, small comitee
<nikolar> Also don't forget gnome being pricks and basically strong arming the whole "no server side decorations" issue
<zid`> *ideally* there's a bunch of core shit that would be handled all by the same repo, but making that happen oss is impossible
<nikolar> I mean it could've been possible
<nikolar> But we got Wayland instead
<zid`> lol
<zid`> X having two copy paste buffers was always super weird btw
<nikolar> lol indeed
<nikolar> i mean it can be handy
<zid`> for sure, but very weird
<nikolar> but 99% of people just use the clipboard and don't even know about the primary
<zid`> some guy in 1993's workflow would have been really fucked if you changed it
<nikolar> or secondary
<zid`> but it just messes most people up
<nikolar> zid`, you forgot about the secondary :P
<nikolar> there are 3 copy buffers :P
<zid`> meanwhile, windows handles it with a single one, that's managed internally
<zid`> and has been the same since 1993
<nikolar> Btw remember the Linux on 4004 guy
<zid`> yes
<zid`> I mean, will do
<heat> if X11 is so great, where's X12?
<zid`> That seems like a command
<nikolar> You should check out his other stuff
<nikolar> The guy is nuts
<zid`> link
<zid`> it
<zid`> then
<bslsk05> ​dmitry.gr: rePalm - Dmitry.GR
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<zid`> During this project I found only two show-stopping bugs that I had to work around in it, so not too bad for an OSS project.
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<nikolar> Kek
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<zid`> https://i.imgur.com/9K4Ym7a.jpeg Portugal has some explaining to do imo
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<heat> zid`, wrong country
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<the_oz> seems kinda autistic
<the_oz> like they got named for exactly what they look like
<the_oz> "what is this shredded meat? ah beef but mixed with these spices and sauces. Not a steak. Crazy."
<the_oz> etc etc etc
<the_oz> boy's foot, peanuts in chocolate?
<the_oz> The only one I don't get is foot bug
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* Ermine ticks off linux desktop bingo card today
<Ermine> friendly reminder that X didn't even run when it was 15yo
<heat> what if we rewrote Xorg in rust?
<Ermine> x12!
<Ermine> xerrite
<heat> x.rs
<Ermine> tbh that would give X a few more years
<heat> "we should revive x" -- person that isn't willing to do the work of reviving x
<Ermine> true
<Ermine> but "give it a few more years" != revive
<GeDaMo> Is Wayland written in Rust? :|
<Ermine> I think yes?
<heat> no
<heat> wayland is written in no language because wayland isn't a piece of software
<heat> well, it's written in english :P
<Ermine> I think there was a project to write libwayland-* in rust and have a scanner to generate rust code
<heat> ROST
<the_oz> you have to generate from xml files?
<the_oz> wtf'
<the_oz> for c
<the_oz> wherein reimplement the universe first b/c of course
<the_oz> >isn't this supposed to be a graphics protocol? would've been a hell of a lot easier to just forgo all this nonsense...
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<the_oz> >we shall make our reference implementation in the most nonsense way
<zid`> penis?
<Ermine> haha benis
<zid`> hebo
<heat> penis kernal
<heat> aight i ported links now
<heat> year of the onyx desktop is 2024, done
<nikolar> heat: onyx advanced, even has a web browser
<heat> onyx can into space
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<nikolar> that's mjg's line
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<nikolar> well looks like openwatcom is completely borked on non-x86 targets kek
<kof673> host system, or target target (cross-compiling output "target")?
<bslsk05> ​github.com: rpm/rpmio/macro.c at bcf06fded9ff0d94d5104b53344eb959a8dd0c92 · rpm-software-management/rpm · GitHub
<heat> they're doing what i do, but backwards
<nikolar> kof673: cross compiilng
<nikolar> heat: which is?
<kof673> i mean, i think it had an alpha target, but not sure anyone got that to work, for alpha nt?
<nikolar> alpha just generates r0 for every register
<kof673> ah
<nikolar> so do mips and ppc lol
<heat> nikolar, i do C in a .cpp, they do cpp in a .c
<kof673> yes, the winnt platforms sounds like
<nikolar> heat: i am surprised that compiles lol
<kof673> well, i believe people have hacked together ppc embedded stuff to cross-compile for winnt, and an emulator even "runs" it somewhat
<heat> it should not, i suspect they do -x c
<nikolar> -x c++?
<heat> right
<nikolar> yeah probably
<nikolar> why pretend it's c i wonder
<kof673> i mean, if people can get the various nt (mips ran in qemu for a long time already) platforms to run in emulators, maybe someone will fix openwatcom :D
<nikolar> lol maybe
<kof673> i think people have even tried to get alpha going, but not sure of status
<nikolar> also apparently someone's maintaining gcc 6.8 or whatever for 16-bit x86 support
<nikolar> for elks
<kof673> yes, it builds fine, but haven't done anything with it. maybe mine is older
<heat> "We'll rename all the C++ sources to an appropriate extension somewhere around rpm 4.20 beta/rc release, at any rate during 2024. This is lessons learned from similar transition in gcc who only renamed things 10+ years after the fact"
<nikolar> loller
<kof673> i even found code sourcery or someone...made an april 1st release with x86-16...said it was not a joke...archive.org has the page, but links broken :/
<nikolar> i don't think rpm the project is anywhere near the complexity of gcc
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<kof673> one of those groups that packages gcc/etc.
<kof673> separate from elks stuff i believe too
<nikolar> also what's the benefit of having c++ code in a c file
<heat> "Keep it simple, Sam. We're using C++ mainly for STL convenience, not because OMG OOP! Polymorphism is good when it's called for, but this is not anybody's Design Patterns master thesis. There are at most a handful of places in rpm that call for it. Don't use a C++ feature just because it exists, some of them are just terrible. As the core guidelines shows, C++ is so big it's easier to tell what to do than what not to."
<heat> good idea but honestly, sounds like a side move
<nikolar> which part
<heat> moving to C++ in general
<kof673> *one of those groups that packages embedded toolchains
<nikolar> i don't think it really makes sense
<nikolar> but they are doing it anyway so eh
<heat> they say they want to use the STL *shrug*
<nikolar> kof673: are x86 microcontrollers still a thing
<nikolar> heat: the worst part of c++ :P
cross_ is now known as cross
<heat> depends on who you ask!
<nikolar> kek
<zid`> I don't often have chats in asylums
<nikolar> you're right, there are plenty of bad parts to choose from
<kof673> no idea, just i think that was separate from the elks stuff
<heat> like... did they consider rust
<nikolar> that's not exactly an improvment
<heat> C to C++ was a pogchamp idea 20 years ago
<heat> it's a "huh? :thinkingface:" now
<zid`> nikolar: Should I have written my lexer in rust
<nikolar> heat: you're right, just stick with c
<heat> right
<nikolar> zid`: obvioisly, what kind of question is that
<zid`> honestly rust would have been 'good' there
<nikolar> i mean it's not hard to do better than c++
<nikolar> sosure
<nikolar> *so sure
<heat> rpm but REWRITTEN IN HASKELL
<heat> STEP ASIDE WEIRDOS WE'RE DOING HASKELL NOW
<heat> FOLDL YOUR ASSES
<nikolar> kek
<nikolar> i think the hipster one these days is ocaml though
<nikolar> so List.fold_left
<zid`> isn't ocaml old as fuck
<nikolar> sure, so is haskel
<zid`> haskell isn't THAT old
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<zid`> ocaml 1996!? newer than I thought
<nikolar> ocaml: 1996, haskell: 1990
<zid`> haskell is older, wtf
<nikolar> you were probably thinking of ml zid`
<nikolar> or sml
<zid`> nobody had ever heard about haskell until 2015 though
<nikolar> kek
<zid`> I had heard of ocaml well before I had heard of haskel
<nikolar> sml is from 1983 apparently
<nikolar> ml is from 1973
<zid`> no idea what sml/mlare
* Ermine relocates text
<heat> did you fix that shit Ermine
<nikolar> (standard ML)
<Ermine> no
<nikolar> and ml stands for meta language
<heat> what are you fucking with?
<Ermine> vbox guest additions
<heat> ohhhhh
<Ermine> imma filing a bug report
<zid`> oh I may have heard of standard ml
<zid`> like, once
<nikolar> lol if you're heard of ocaml, you've probably heard of sml
<heat> Ermine, can you send me the .so you're struggling with?
<heat> i can take a quick look
<zid`> depends where I heard it
<zid`> it was probably just some random reddit comment or whatever
<Ermine> heat: it's binary
<nikolar> kek maybe
<heat> Ermine, huh?
<zid`> or like, the start of a blog, "Because I'm not a hipster who writes everything in O'caml, ..."
<heat> proprietary .so you mean?
<Ermine> executable i mean
<heat> that works too
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<heat> all of the text relocs look like the result of some bad linking
<heat> i used scanelf -T
<heat> lots of references to xlib and wayland symbols
<Ermine> they generate assembly stubs to lazy load libX11 and libwayland
<heat> there you go lol
<heat> link?
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<Ermine> which link
<heat> link to the stubs
<Ermine> they are generated at build time
<heat> link to the templates i mean
<bslsk05> ​www.virtualbox.org: libX11.def in vbox/trunk/src/VBox/GuestHost – Oracle VirtualBox
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<bslsk05> ​www.virtualbox.org: VBoxDef2LazyLoad.cpp in vbox/trunk/src/bldprogs – Oracle VirtualBox
<heat> wow that is a bunch of assembly soup isn't it
<Ermine> Seems like it shoud use GOT/GOTOFF and it doens't. But idk then why did it work previously
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<heat> fwiw glibc can do textrels
<Ermine> yeah, seems so
<zid`> can it do texels yet though
<Ermine> But it doesn't seem to be desirable outcome
<heat> yes, textrels are dumb and poopy
<heat> musl is in the right in not supporting it
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<Ermine> Btw, some people seems to use "DSO" term instead of "shared library"?
<heat> yes, dynamic shared object
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<bslsk05> ​www.theregister.com: Google's Rust belts bugs out of Android in Safe Coding push • The Register
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* Ermine marks rust on #osdev bingo card
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<Ermine> I've sent a letter to vbox devs
<Ermine> let those twats deal with this shit
<heat> lol
<heat> did you know redhat distros compile everything with lto?
<Ermine> wow
<Ermine> isn't that nice
<heat> hmmm no not particularly
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<zid`> I'm eating fusion food again
<zid`> today's meal is fusilli vindaloo
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<nikolar> the heck is that zid`
<zid`> FUSION CUISINE
<childlikempress> woke
<heat> WOKE CUISINE
<zid`> some of us eat things that aren't green soup
<nikolar> i don't either
<zid`> are you a race traitor
<nikolar> lol wat
<zid`> do you eat FOREIGN MUCK
* Ermine Sent from my iPhone
<the_oz> food doesn't transmit racism
<the_oz> the number of whatever style restaurant cooked by a mexican in the south US will tell ya
<gog> what if the mayonnaise is too spicy
<zid`> mayonnaise is too egg
<Ermine> then it's the mustard
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<nikolar> Mayonnaise is the best
<heat> mustard and ketchup are way better
<heat> mayo is doodoo when compared to them
<zid`> tobasco is way way better
<zid`> garlic sauce also good
<the_oz> I really like crystals
<the_oz> as far as louisiana hot sauces go
<the_oz> the lime just hits the spot
<the_oz> I also like dukes' mayo, though I need to find one with even less seed oils. But lazy so
<gog> my fav hot sauce is el yucateco tomatillo habanero
<gog> it's very green
<gog> hard to find here tho so i just settle for the cheap pepper sauce that's similar to tabasco but not aged
<gog> sometimes i find franks red hot
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<gog> one of my coworkers hates spicy and if we get bibmbap he'll just shovel the kimchi into my bowl
<gog> i fucken love kimchi
<the_oz> score, kek
<Ermine> heat: ketchup does not suit everything. E.g. with fish it's bad
<gog> catsup
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<the_oz> ketchup is ok weith meatloaf, glazed
<the_oz> that's about it
<the_oz> fries? nah I'd rather a dill garlic mayo
<the_oz> though this one time in austin tx I got drunk and ate poutine fries at 2am from a food cart and that was tasty af
<gog> i should cook pasta
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* Ermine gives gog a piece of parmesan
* gog è affascinato
<gog> actually have some parmigiano reggiano for the pastas
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<Ermine> :D
<the_oz> mealdev
<the_oz> I can operate this system
<heat> góg
<gog> calore
<gog> che cosa
<heat> bazìnga
<gog> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<heat> gog i ported a fucking web browser man
<heat> im the shit
<gog> good job
<heat> im so the shit i could write a rap song with poop-related jokes
<heat> that's how the shit i am
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<bslsk05> ​'Ice Spice - Think U The Shit (Fart) (Official Video)' by Ice Spice (00:02:25)
<heat> ice spice was still crawling while lil wayne was running track
<the_oz> I don'
<bslsk05> ​'Everytime Lil Wayne Says a "Im the Shit" Joke' by Saltasauruses (00:00:36)
<the_oz> t do rap, just I heard someone mention the lyrics so there yoiu go
<the_oz> wow he talks about shit a lot
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<childlikempress> heat: what browser
<childlikempress> was it like lynx
<childlikempress> or w3m
<heat> links
<childlikempress> awwwwwwww
<childlikempress> that's adorble!
<nortti> do you have the framebuffer driver, or is it text mode only?
<heat> text mode
<heat> graphical looked like a weird hack
<heat> i'll be porting chrome in no time anyway
<childlikempress> waow
<childlikempress> you should do servo instead
<childlikempress> much woker
<heat> >rust
<heat> ughh
<heat> nothing wrong with a browser in rust except that i need to finally port rustc and the core crates and all that comes with it
<heat> including llvm
<nikolar> i mean rust was basically created for browsers so perfect match
<heat> rust was created to strategically replace all the things you love with all the things you hate
<heat> just wait until your family gets rewritten in rust
<heat> they won't even run on m68k anymore :(
<nikolar> :(
<kof673> nikolar, did you or geist build binutils and gcc for --target=pdp11-bsd2.11? i am just wondering if it is known to work or not, there is a tar seems to have enough to do this without installing first and having to copy headers and libraries out
<nikolar> yeah, you can build pdp11-aout taraget
<kof673> well i found a post said bsd for hosted, aout for "bare metal" but binutils seems to build identical either way perhaps
<nikolar> geist has a toolchain you can download, or you can use his `doit` script to build it yourself
<kof673> ok thx
<heat> just doit
<nikolar> right, haven't tried the bsd2.11
<nikolar> heat: literally
<heat> rip nikolarpdp
<nikolar> yeah the emulator shat itself
<heat> simh ded?
<nikolar> ye
<nikolar> haven't tried it in a while, maybe i should check on it
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<kazinsal> last I checked there were two different branches of simh
<heat-onyx> rip nikolarpdp, long live heat-onyx
<kazinsal> both of which had features the other didn't
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<kazinsal> while also being completely separate major version numbers
<heat-onyx> that's lame, they should disallow fork
<heat-onyx> s
<heat-onyx> i heard that works well
<nikolar> btw heat-onyx, it's nikolapdp
<nikolar> get it right :P
<heat-onyx> damn
<nikolar> what client did you port
<heat-onyx> irssi
<childlikempress> maybe stop calling me Mondekind and you can complain about people getting your name wrong
<nikolar> hey i did after you corrected me
<heat-onyx> HEY YO ITS MOON-CHILD
<nikolar> kek
<childlikempress> somebody needs to read more fine german literature
<heat-onyx> bro we get it you read mein kampf
<childlikempress> oh my fucking god lmao😭😭😭
<the_oz> more like CRC
<heat-onyx> chill i don't have emoji support for my vterm
<childlikempress> ;-;
<heat-onyx> ah yes
<heat-onyx> unironically probably the same number of bytes?
<heat> heat-onyx: test
<heat-onyx> irssi's color scheme looks weird, i'm used to having different colored nicks
<childlikempress> pretty sure there is a script you can install for that
<nikolar> heat-onyx: port weechat next
<heat-onyx> weechat? more like peechat
<heat-onyx> *ba dum tss*
<kazinsal> ouichat
<heat-onyx> i actually ran sic for the longest while on onyx
<heat-onyx> never tried out the one with the named pipes
<nikolar> that one is kind of nice for bots
<nikolar> i did port sic to the bsd2.11, i think i win :P
<heat-onyx> fair
<heat-onyx> i very rarely need to do actual "porting" besides adding myself to a few ifdefs or whatnot
<heat-onyx> unless it's really deep system shit. like grub needs to know how your kernel names disks and their partitions
<nikolar> fair enough
<heat-onyx> i do hate libtool btw
<heat-onyx> obligatory fuck libtool
<heat-onyx> i think there's a way around it but i need to investigate
<childlikempress> heat-onyx HATES libs
<childlikempress> stupid libcucks
<heat-onyx> onyx is a WOKE LIBCUCK system
<heat-onyx> i have xtrans installed
<childlikempress> waow
<nikolar> i forogor, what's libtool for anyway
<childlikempress> it's because libs are tools
<childlikempress> HTH.HAND
<heat-onyx> nikolar: libtool is a horrid set of scripts + m4 macros that are copied around
<nikolar> that do what
<heat-onyx> who the fuck knows
<heat-onyx> deal with horrid broken old garbage?
<nikolar> lel
<nikolar> so it's a mystery
<childlikempress> i think ur supposed to use it instead of cc or ld
<childlikempress> for making libraries
<heat-onyx> anyway my big problem with that shit is that it defaults to "system does not support shared libraries"
<heat-onyx> which is not true
<heat-onyx> the usual solution involves patching the m4 macros and regenning, or patching the configure script
<childlikempress> oh so then you have to like patch in a hardcoded os list in everybody's copy of libtool?
<heat-onyx> yes
<childlikempress> ooff
<the_oz> what, do lib authors lack the ability to write a fucking Makefile
<heat-onyx> "patch hardcoded os list" is the average autoconf experience but at least config.sub and config.guess are self contained so you can plop shit in
<heat-onyx> in any case uhhh i think i can get around it with github.com/midipix-project/slibtool
<bslsk05> ​midipix-project/slibtool - a surrogate libtool implementation, written in C (8 forks/59 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<heat-onyx> but maybe that's just not possible and i'm super fucked. yay!
<nikolar> midipix stuff is primarily around to support windows
<zid`> I've been reading the libtool manual
<zid`> I still don't know what it does
<nikolar> so who knows if you can use it
<nikolar> zid`: kek
<heat-onyx> well this one isn't i think
<heat-onyx> one thing that's super important about libtool is that it shits out a bunch of .la files that AFAIK serve as some primitive pkg-config .pc substitute
<heat-onyx> but they're completely broken so all package managers have been purposefully find-and-deleting them for the last 25 years
<heat-onyx> they also make your builds slower because libtool is written in sh
<nikolar> so no one knows what it's for, and everyone deletes half its output
<nikolar> neat
<heat-onyx> and it's copied around so you can't just patch it once
<nikolar> kek
<heat-onyx> and if you do in fact want to regen autoconf you'll have to deal with all sorts of hilarious issues like different projects requiring different versions of autoconf and automake and dying if its any older or newer
<nikolar> i am aware of that part
<the_oz> Adeptus Administratum
<the_oz> "I do not know if these errors are ever seen, yet I continue in my ceaseless task to only ever see /dev/null all praise the kernel
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<heat-onyx> i was building some package lately and noticed its config.sub was pre-9/11
<heat-onyx> i used to think this is the worst but i've figured out you can just replace these scripts entirely. not fucking libtool though, fuck you
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<heat-onyx> bgfg
<heat> my tty job control is a little fucked
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<nikolar> fix it
<heat> eventually yeah
<nikolar> you're welcome
<zid`> nikolar is the ideas man
<heat> the dreaded osdev ideas man
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<Ermine> s/my//
<bslsk05> ​* Ermine* Sent from iPhone
<Ermine> bslsk05: wrong comment
<heat> you wanted /h
<heat> s/comment/linuxkernal/E
<bslsk05> ​<Ermine*> bslsk05: wrong linuxkernal
<childlikempress> s/wrong/right/b
<Ermine> thx, will remember that
<childlikempress> aw it doesn't pick up its own messages? :\
<heat> this is what happens when you're WOKE
<heat> you sed OTHERS but not YOURSELF
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<Ermine> so, vma = vm area?
<heat> yes
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