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<edgar-rft>
when learning Common Lisp even 20 year old info can be useful because Common Lisp basics haven't changed since 1994 :-)
<sebastian_>
Yeah, which is fortunate for me. There are Lisp books from the 90s and even 80s that are still useful right now (there are a couple books from the 70s that are less useful). I think the newest book they have on Common Lisp is Practical Common Lisp, which is almost 20 years old now.
<sebastian_>
By "they" I mean my university library. Forgot to specify, my bad.
<bjorkintosh>
unfortunately, it also attracts a lot of people chasing the VC dream of selling hot air for a billion. ignore those portions.
<sebastian_>
I do browse there, and there are a bunch of helpful resources there when searching on Google "site:news.ycombinator.com common lisp". Thanks for the suggestion regardless!
<edgar-rft>
Practical Common Lisp is great, I wish it would have existed wen I was learning Lisp :-) Meanwhile there are also copies of Norvig's "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming" available for free -> https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<ixelp>
GitHub - norvig/paip-lisp: Lisp code for the textbook "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming"
<bjorkintosh>
sebastian_, to some extent, you can learn from books on scheme as well, so don't ignore those either.
<sebastian_>
Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, my library has the book "Scheme and the Art of Programming", which seems like a pretty cool book. I appreciate the link as well.
<bjorkintosh>
sebastian_, which language(s) do you know now?
<sebastian_>
I know C, C++, Lua, and I'm passable at Python. I am familiar with the basics of Haskell but gave up with monad transformers. I also know a bit of basic Scheme but switched to learning Common Lisp now. I'm kind of a novice programmer; I haven't done projects in any language that took more than two weeks, and still in university.
<sebastian_>
bjorkintosh: Forgot to tag your name earlier
<bjorkintosh>
sebastian_, also #clschool
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<sebastian_>
Thanks for the link!
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<dnhester26>
Good afternoon. I would like to map over a list of functions an apply them to some value, each time taking as input the last run function. So instead of doing (a(b(c(d(e data))))) I would like to do something like (map-special '(a b c d e) data). Is there a default way of doing this?
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<dnhester26>
I basically have a list of strings that i want to delete from a text. So I was hoping to do a str:replace-all or cl-ppcre:replace-all for the regex ones, over the text, but I need to run each replace on the results of the previous replace
<dnhester26>
I just want the last value. This is a basic lisp question. I can just do a regular loop declaring some variable and updating it on every run of the loop like I would do in C Java Python, but what is the correct way of doing it in lisp?
<lieven>
probably the same as in the other languages. (loop for f in '(#'a #'b #'c #'d #'e) for data = data then (funcall f data) finally return data) or something like that (untested)
<lieven>
you could define a COMPOSE function and then do (funcall (reduce #'compose '(#'a #'b #'c #'d #'e)) data)
<lieven>
but it probably wouldn't be worth it
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<dnhester26>
thanks lieven but how do I update the data in each iteration of the loop so that it runs on the previous iteration's result?
<lieven>
the return is to give you the result at the end
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<dnhester26>
ah, thanks, let me try to see if I understood, reading the docs now
<lieven>
the loop chapter in Practical Common Lisp by Seibel is very good. the standard can be a bit bracing.
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<easye>
lieven: I find <https://novaspec.org/cl/6_1_The_LOOP_Facility#sec_6_1> a pretty good reference for LOOP these days. It is nothing more than all the CLHS content on a single page, but being able to search around the same "page" of content seems to be a decent mechanism to refresh my memory.
<ixelp>
6.1 The LOOP Facility | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<ixelp>
GitHub - telekons/one-more-re-nightmare: A fast regular expression compiler in Common Lisp
<NotThatRPG>
kevingal: Thanks!
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<beach>
So I had code similar to this: (defun f (ast) (let* ((ast (g ast)) (ast (h ast))) ast)) and I wanted to examine the result after each call, so I did this (defun f (ast) (let* ((ast (g ast)) (ignore (break)) (ast (h ast)) (ignore (break))) ast)), but then the SLIME stack frame inspector refused to let me examine the AST variable, claiming that there are several occurrences of AST.
<beach>
But only one such occurrence is in scope at any time, of course.
<bike>
slime should still let you inspect the value though...
<beach>
Thanks! (reading...)
<beach>
So the SLIME output was like in that example: AST = ... and AST#1 = ...
<bike>
right. it has the argument to f as well as the local binding, presumably
<beach>
And I called (CLOUSEAU:INSPECT AST) which failed.
<bike>
er, local bindings
<bike>
ah, i see
<beach>
So I guess it is a SLIME issue then.
<bike>
i guess you could do (closeau:inspect (sb-debug:var "AST" 1))
<beach>
I'll try that next time. Thanks! It is not convenient to have to rename the variables each time I add a new transformation.
<NotThatRPG>
Has anyone ever used `uiop:with-optimization-settings`? It's in the UIOP codebase, apparently buggy, and not documented. Curious whether anyone knows how it's supposed to work...
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<NotThatRPG>
Oh yes, and it's never *used* in the ASDF/UIOP code base.
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<reb>
NotThatRPG: I have not used uiop:with-optimization-settings. The ASDF system com.google.base defines a type of ASDF component, fast-unsafe-source-file, that causes a source code to be compiled with high optimization and low safety.
<NotThatRPG>
reb: Do you have a pointer to that system? If so, I will go and look there for an example. Thanks!
<NotThatRPG>
Man, it would sure be nice if those quickref pages had links to code.
<ixelp>
GitHub - brown/base: Universally useful Lisp code that lives in package com.google.base.
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<NotThatRPG>
reb: I just went to the GitHub page and, unless I did it wrong, a search of the repo does not find any occurrences of `with-optimization-settings`
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<NotThatRPG>
Have to go AFK -- if there are any more responses, I will check the logs when I get back. Thanks, everyone
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<reb>
NotThatRPG: None of the code I referred to uses with-optimization-settings. It's an implementation of something similar, fast-unsafe-source-file, in case you find it useful or want a working example in case you take a stab at fixing whatever's wrong with with-optimization-settings.
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<NotThatRPG>
reb: Oh, OK. I was specifically interested in use of that macro, since it seems to have a bug or 2
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<ares123>
Hi, guys. I'm kinda disappointed with CL debugging. With Sly (or slime), it seems, I get info on the frame (function call), but not the "place in the code that called the next frame / errored out".
<ares123>
Is there a shortcut or something i can use to pinpoint the location of "this was the call that led to the (chain of calls resulting in an) error" ?
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<beach>
You hit `v' on the frame.
<beach>
ares123: But make sure you have set the DEBUG level high. I just 3 but that's not the default for SBCL.
<beach>
*I use
<beach>
*sigh*
<ares123>
debug level was expected. but how the eff this is not part of the default view ?
<ares123>
gonna go try 'v' and lessen the need for dumb heuristics, thanks.
<beach>
Sure. But read my paper on debugging. You are right that the situation is bad for free Common Lisp implementations.
<beach>
We don't even have a real debugger. I call that "thing" a "backtrace inspector".
<ares123>
a paper on debugging... not gonna touch this, even if it is a comedy gold.
<ares123>
yeah, but sadly we are 50 years later, and a lot of what made it great / integrated back then was lost.
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<ares123>
and not even Franz / Lispworks are "in the national league" today, IMO, although they make you pay for "World Cup"
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<Lycurgus>
franz and lw are top tier implementations
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<Lycurgus>
the top 2 basically
<Lycurgus>
as far as commerical production quality implementations are concerned
<Lycurgus>
neither is especially oriented to hobbists
<Lycurgus>
though both tolerate them cause they culturally have to
<Lycurgus>
for culture and biz purposes
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<ares123>
overpriced, faster if you are lucky, maybe providing more integration, mainly trying you to lure you into vendor lick-in (especially should you use some libs).
<ares123>
nowhere near LispMachines / Smalltalk where it comes to the environment.
<Lycurgus>
2 of the top 3
<younder>
Debugging.. As beach suggest is probably the main reason to get a commercial implementation.
<younder>
SBCL performace is ok.
<Lycurgus>
LispMachines are dead except for the sad thing that runs in a vm
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<Lycurgus>
squeak is not really comparable to lisp
<bjorkintosh>
Lycurgus, beg pardon? how's it sad?
<Lycurgus>
other than being image based
<bjorkintosh>
it's the closest we can have!
<ares123>
Are dead. And by that metric, LispWorks and Franz aren't even undead.
<Lycurgus>
did I say sad?
<bjorkintosh>
si
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<Lycurgus>
where? so I can respond
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<younder>
I like LispWorks. I don't have nay experience with Franz.
<younder>
YMMV
<Lycurgus>
oh i see the alpha image thing
<Lycurgus>
yeah cause its a dead arch that you can't really do anything with
<ares123>
LispWorks: per platform extortion, nuff said.
<younder>
I can telly you that Edi Weitz is a LispWorks user.
<Lycurgus>
i brought it up a few years ago to recover the sources of a pkg that was in lm archive format
<Lycurgus>
like being in a haunted house
<Lycurgus>
well yeah ppl that have actually lisp machines
<younder>
These days I use SBCL. Hade the debugger
<younder>
hate
<Lycurgus>
or like those stories of antiquarians in proust or wherever who have lavish parties in candlelight
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<younder>
Lispworks is so much better. So I am with beach here
<ares123>
Never used anything but SBCL. Hate the "interface", and Sly/Emacs doesn't make it much better. But my main goal is that anyone getting my sources should get the same convenience as myself, and $500 for "being able to compile it for yourself" isn't a convenience, it;s a barrier to enter.
<younder>
ares123: Agreed. The price is a barrier.
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<Lycurgus>
sole use of sbcl give you a distorted view of common lisp implementations
<Lycurgus>
it's definitely not in same class as acl and lw
<ares123>
The "free" trial isn't even able to compile larger project in one go (heap limit), but might load it if you restart the loading a few times ...
<ares123>
DEGENERATE AT LEAST.
<Lycurgus>
but it is free and open source
<Lycurgus>
*gives you
<Lycurgus>
closure is prolly the best free
<younder>
My experienece is that SBCL is workable, but I miss the Lispworks debugger, and CAPI in general.
<Lycurgus>
though it has come a long way since it forked from cmucl which was my default at the time of the fork
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<Lycurgus>
c. '05/6
<younder>
Is CMUCL still around?
<ares123>
The only reason I don't miss CAPI is that i intentionally avoided is as vendor-lock-in. And I'll never miss it, by this metric.
<younder>
I was under the impression that is was rather dead.
<Lycurgus>
yes, I get the mails every month
<yitzi>
It is still around. rtoy maintains it.
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<Lycurgus>
sbcl is still my main implementation but I don't rely on it, if something breaks and it looks like is shoulda worked i'll go to acl or lw
<Lycurgus>
*it shoulda
<ares123>
Great when you already have ACL/LW licenses. I'm not touching them on principle.
<younder>
My principles are a bit more lax
<Lycurgus>
for the purpose i mentioned the freebies suffice
<Lycurgus>
if i had a production need i'd pay lw they are quite reasonable
<Lycurgus>
acl is actually a lil better implementation in my experience but they wanna negotiate a cut if you distribute
<ares123>
Same would go for Cincom or VisualAge Smalltalk.
<ares123>
Besides overpriced, all those companies are remains of what nuked the whole Smalltalk/Lisp market by exorbitant prices.
<Lycurgus>
i first used smalltalk in '85
<Lycurgus>
the first pc implementation was called methods by digitalk and it was initially character oriented
<younder>
Lisp is not making me any money at present so I am not paying a company for using it. If it paid me sufficient money to allow these prices I might consider it
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<Lycurgus>
in '86 they went full graphical but it was black and white
<Lycurgus>
visualage was the thing ibm sat on, squeak and its deplorable fork pharo are pretty much modern st
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<ares123>
younder: \if it pays you any money, you have to redistribute the payments among your customers. Especially great when the companies are going for a percentage of your earnings (at least Cincom is).
<Lycurgus>
an app I did in smalltalk/v for os/2 that acccessed an as400
<younder>
ares123: Lispworks are reasonable, franz demand royalties of you earnings
<ares123>
And lisp-works want double payment for 32/64 split, an for any platform. All scummers, in my book.
<Lycurgus>
pretty sure that's false
<Lycurgus>
(about LW)
<ares123>
But hey, there are people who will happilly pay it, so I'll let them enjoy.
<younder>
not, the 32 bit /564 bit split would be a problem if it was a problem. We all use 64 bit these days
<ares123>
Lycurgus: no, go see their prices. 32/64 were separate, linux/win/osx/android were all separate. PAYMENTS.
<Lycurgus>
igess ppl have developed totally unrealistic ideas about commercial software vs FOSS
<Lycurgus>
like the OpenAI board that pushed out the capitalist roaders, which microsoft just pushed some new ones in
<ares123>
I guess someone can rationalize everything under the FOSS/shameless extortion split, eh ?
<younder>
PYTHON is free ;)
<ares123>
younder: so is JS, enjoy.
<younder>
It is even pretty good.
<ares123>
younder: go redefine something at runtime, and then tell me how you fell about python
<yitzi>
Enough, #lispcafe or someplace else please.
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<ares123>
yitzi: true enough, lisps suck, smalltalks suck, pythons suck, we suck, and this is no the chan for all the suckiness ;-)
<younder>
sulkiness. There war-gods get kinda tiring.
<yitzi>
I said none of those things. Discussing the OpenAI board, python, etc is just off topic.
<Shinmera>
arguably commercial implementations are also off topic since this is Libera and not Commercia
<ares123>
yitzi: I was just joking / it was getting off-topic. Chastize me for agreeing in spirit, man.
<Shinmera>
ares123: you can stop now, thank you
<yitzi>
ares123: gotcha
<ares123>
Shinmera: Go look at your self-portraits if you have nothing on-topic, thakns.
ares123 was kicked from #commonlisp by Shinmera [thanks man]
<Shinmera>
anything else?
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ares123 was kicked from #commonlisp by Shinmera [ares123]
<Shinmera>
For clarity: ares123 just sent me the following via PM: "Go get more vaxxed, you despicable bully. Everyone who read your posts on Planet Lisp knows what a brain-wahed, woke, manipulative controlling bully you are."
<Shinmera>
I feel it should be uncontroversial that this warrants a ban
<younder>
So we all use 64 bit SBCL and know no commercial programs. For me it happens to be true.
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<aeth>
SBCL on the one side, other-programming-languages (off-topic) on the other side. Not much room left for the commercial implementations.
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<aeth>
SBCL is probably good enough for a commercial product unless you need a niche feature like their implementation of CLIM.
<Shinmera>
I have and continue to use SBCL for commercial products.
<younder>
Mine are all open-source.
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<Shinmera>
So are mine.
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<younder>
I have some new ideas bout why I got such
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<younder>
a 6X performance boot with those april benchmarks. This collector doesn't actually compact yet. It dsn't collect. But when you give it a whopping 32 Gb of RAM to play with it is greased lightning.
<younder>
So it is basically a arena allocateor.
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<younder>
Those work great with gams. You allocate everything either when the game begins or at each level. And when you free it all goes. Everything gets allocated sequentually so it is fat.
<younder>
games
<younder>
fast
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<younder>
Such a arena is a great idea even if you garbage collect. Because you know the lifetime of some objects and then it doesn't make sense to manage them automatically.
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* Pixel_Outlaw
catches up. Huh. Nice punt. :D
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