jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<skeemer> hello everyone i liked the function of roswell used to build a binary program which is executable
<skeemer> how can i create such a binary without roswell ?
<skeemer> or what does roswell do under the hood ?
<edgar-rft> creating standalone executables is implementation-dependent, for example in SBCL the function is called save-lisp-and-die -> http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-sb_002dext-save_002dlisp_002dand_002ddie
<ixelp> SBCL 2.3.10 User Manual
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<t_pok> After doing sicp and some scheme books like the seasoned schemer, what's the best way to get into actual CL, befriend the compiler, understand what libraries to know etc.? The amount of features is overwhelming, making me consider racket also
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<aeth> the recommended introduction to Common Lisp is https://gigamonkeys.com/book/
<ixelp> Practical Common Lisp
<aeth> but you don't need to go through anywhere near all of the book
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<aeth> you can use most of the first half as a reference as you just program things, also using the less-friendly-but-more-complete hyperspec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
<ixelp> CLHS: Chapter Index
<aeth> nothing beats just picking some projects and coding
<ixelp> Quicklisp beta
<aeth> a categorized and somewhat opinionated selection of mostly quicklisp libraries at https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
<ixelp> GitHub - CodyReichert/awesome-cl: A curated list of awesome Common Lisp frameworks, libraries and other shiny stuff.
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<aeth> most people program CL in GNU Emacs with SLIME (or Sly) and paredit (or something else to automatch parentheses)
<aeth> to learn a lot, simply play around with the REPL with M-x slime
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<aeth> the most popular implementation is SBCL; other popular choices on IRC include CCL and ECL
<aeth> older guides or books may recommend CLISP, but it's a slow interpreter instead of a fast compiler and it's basically on life support (though it's not dead yet); last release in 2010 so any distro is probably going to pick an arbitrary git release as the distributed version
<t_pok> Thank you Aeth! Much appreciated
<aeth> you're welcome
<t_pok> I will definitely go with SBCL
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<aeth> and the wiki's here, but parts of it are potentially extremely outdated: https://www.cliki.net/
<ixelp> CLiki: the common lisp wiki
<t_pok> Ah, I thought it was dead like c2wiki RIP
<aeth> history seems to start at 2004; the front page seems to be very current, but any random part of it can be very old
<aeth> the most useful page is probably https://www.cliki.net/Naming%20conventions
<ixelp> CLiki: Naming conventions
<aeth> and on that note there's a style guide at https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
<aeth> (yes, there's Common Lisp at Google; acquisitions)
<t_pok> I vaguely recall flights was acquired with a lisp backend
<aeth> yes
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<t_pok> Do you have experience with schemes also? I am curious about racket, which has a lot built in. Yet the "industrial" benefit of CL seems like a nice draw. CL seems to offer (very old) production code to read and many greybeards, while racket seems... To just be there.
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<aeth> Every Scheme is essentially its own ecosystem extended from one of the major standards. The minimalist R5RS and R7RS-small are one side of a schism (with R7RS-large slowly making progress) while the not-minimalist R6RS is the other side of the schism. Even within one of those two universes, portable code is rare and most libraries are written for a given Scheme implementation, while Common Lisp usually
<aeth> relies on portability libraries to have its libraries run everywhere, see: https://portability.cl/
<ixelp> Common Lisp Portability Library Status
<aeth> Racket is closer to R6RS, but isn't an R6RS. The name change from PLT Scheme to Racket reflects a break with Scheme to some degree. For instance, its lists are immutable.
<t_pok> That portability link is fascinating, thank you.
<moon-child> s7 (the best scheme) is allegedly compatible with r5rs and r7rs, and also takes significant inspirate from cl and kernel
<moon-child> inspiration*
<aeth> Beyond the language differences that are discussed everywhere online (e.g. two variable/function namespaces in CL and one combined namespace in Scheme), in a practical sense, Schemers usually choose implementations based on unportable features and implementation-specific libraries. By contrast, Common Lisp code is usually portable. This is a fairly large cultural difference.
<mariari> moon-child: what does s7 add?
<t_pok> My impression was that SBCL, Allegro and Lispworks are the only relevant CL implementations today (when I aksed about befriending the compiler, I meant SBCL). From the outside, knowing how many companies actually use closed source compilers is impossible, but are they (and/or other implementations) still so important?
<waleee> seems odd that it added stuff when it was a fork of something called tinyscheme
<moon-child> mariari: notable stuff that comes to mind is first-class lexical environments (and some prototype oo layered on top) and first-class operatives (e.g. I can say (let ((progn begin)) (progn 1 2 3)) #| --> 3 |#)
<aeth> Basically, if you go with Scheme, treat each as implementation its own dialect or language and embrace the unportable. This probably means sticking to a major one like Racket (which is kind of a Scheme and kind of not), Guile, or Chicken for the libraries.
<aeth> If you go with SBCL, you probably have no reason to write directly to SBCL, although there are some nice features at https://www.sbcl.org/manual/
<ixelp> SBCL 2.3.10 User Manual
<moon-child> mariari: also the behaviour of multiple values is really cute: (+ 2 (values) (values 3 4)) is 9
<bike> huh, so everything is an mv call? weird.
<moon-child> yeah
<moon-child> also you can return multiple values from map and they'll be appended
<aeth> t_pok: SBCL is the most popular CL implementation today because it's FOSS and the compiler usually produces the fastest code, but because most Common Lisp code is portable, everyone could move to a faster compiler fairly quickly, mainly by porting the most important 1/2 or 1/3 of portability.cl
<aeth> Also consider other near-future niches like WASM
<aeth> No WASM implementation yet, but SBCL might be harder to port
<aeth> There's an attempt to compile CL to JS called JSCL, but it's hard to do so it's incomplete... and it omits a lot of optional behavior that almost every compiler implements. So there probably won't be a complete CL in the browser until someone compiles one to WASM or writes one for WASM. https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl
<ixelp> GitHub - jscl-project/jscl: A Lisp-to-JavaScript compiler bootstrapped from Common Lisp
<aeth> The main reason to not use SBCL is for such platforms, though. That's why ECL (Embeddable Common Lisp) has its niches. And CCL has some Mac interop.
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<aeth> Oh, and Allegro and Lispworks exist because someone, for some reason, decides to pay for them. Perhaps because they have better GUI support. If I had to write a Common Lisp GUI app in SBCL, I'd probably just write one from scratch on top of the 3D/gamedev stack of SDL2 and OpenGL. This has obvious downsides.
<smlckz_> When trying to quickload coalton, got ''Heap exhausted, game over.'' What can be done in this situation?
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<waleee> run sbcl with more --dynamic-space-size
<ldb> I think R5RS and above says literals are immutable
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<aeth> ldb: that is the same as in Common Lisp, where if you mutate '(1 2 3 4) you're not going to have a good time, if your implementation even lets you do that (some catch that now)
<ldb> although not really much implementations there enforced
<aeth> ldb: Racket doesn't let you mutate (list 1 2 3 4)
<ldb> aeth: at some point they ditched scheme lol
<waleee> smlckz_: does quickload work for other libraries? that message doesn't originate from coalton
<waleee> (going by a grep of the repo)
<aeth> ldb: Yes. Imo, all Schemes are dialects that are slowly diverging into their own separate languages, but Racket is just a child language derived from Scheme.
<waleee> ah from sbcl
<mariari> moon-child: that is very cute
<mariari> moon-child: I remember reading about replacing progn with values, I forget which paper back when explaining what horrible effects come from that
<moon-child> wait what how
<mariari> also does this mean scheme s7 effectively has an image we can do programming on (or some kind of liveness)?
<ldb> Allegro is used by some research institutions like SRI or Cornell for it has better performance than SBCL sometimes and much smaller memory footprint. Lispworks has a mature native look GUI development kit
<mariari> moon-child: I forget where I read the paper or blogpost but it looked into what if progn was values instead
<moon-child> you can use it interactively but there's no s-l-a-d or anything
<mariari> moon-child: would the toplevel forced not to be hopeless?
<moon-child> oh the racket thing--remind me what the deal there is?
<ldb> The PVS prover is distrubuted with Allegro CL although the prover is under a free software license so can also be used with SBCL.
<moon-child> but yeah I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't use s7 interactively. Contrariwise, first-class environments in principle mean you can encapsulate properly, so it should be possible to avoid the cl problem where you have stale state and can't fix it
<mariari> moon-child: if you enter values into the repl it will give a different result than loading it from a file
<moon-child> why?
<mariari> moon-child: even without first class environments there are some protections one can do, at least I've noticed the issue is much less in factor, though it undefines things if need be
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<ixelp> The top-level is hopeless · GitHub
<mariari> I forget the exact reason why
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<mariari> I think they just implemented their compiler wrong?
<moon-child> yeah like cl also doesn't let you redefine structs and constants
<moon-child> though in practice sbcl lets you redefine them. But you have to go to extra manual effort to deal with the consequences then
<moon-child> and it leaks struct layouts
<mariari> in factor if the file removes some definition `f` it undefines itself in the image, which is interesting
<mariari> so typically the state isn't really stale, as if you forget to say change a definition name it will warn you
<moon-child> what if you define f at the repl, then add the definition to the file, and then remove it from the file?
<mariari> I believe it will stay? I'd have to test
<mariari> let me load up the system really quick
<moon-child> https://docs.racket-lang.org/iracket/index.html#%28part._hopeless%29 wat
<ixelp> IRacket: Racket Kernel for Jupyter
<mariari> moon-child: it gets undefined
<mariari> the definition in the file overwrites the one in the repl
<mariari> when loading the file again
<mariari> and then when you remove the definition it's gone from the env
<moon-child> 'Defer word in current vocabulary' is that a general mechanism for late binding?
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<mariari> yeah I believe so, note you can't refer to symbols that aren't defined
<mariari> factor has odd late binding? there was a post about it, how it does some amount of early binding for optimization but it looks like late
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<ixelp> Factor: a practical stack language: Compiler overhaul
<mariari> defering defines a new symbol in the namespace
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<ldb> It is cleaner just rebuild the environment from fresh start
<ldb> a problem with CL is the language is not declare enough that side effect can be allowed almost everywhere
<waleee> the OG factor dev is apparently working on swift as a day job nowadays
<waleee> "This page is best viewed with Netscape Navigator and a dialup modem." lol
<waleee> footer here https://factorcode.org/slava/
<ixelp> Slava Pestov's home page
<waleee> I wonder what happened here to make github identify the repo as 100% commonlisp, https://github.com/slavapestov/emerging-langs-talk
<ixelp> GitHub - slavapestov/emerging-langs-talk: Slides and sample code from Emerging Languages Camp 2010
<ixelp> git - GitHub changes repository to the wrong language - Stack Overflow
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<waleee> ldb: none of the reasons there seem to be applicable since this is the only lisp in the repo https://github.com/slavapestov/emerging-langs-talk/blob/master/frobnicate.lisp
<waleee> (factor is identified by linguist for other repos)
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<ldb> waleee: appears that linguist think the factor code are "vendored code" https://github.com/github-linguist/linguist/blob/master/docs/overrides.md#vendored-code
<ldb> but you should able to force set via gitattributes file
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<aeth> linguist just isn't very good
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<aeth> e.g. you have to force it to detect every .lisp file as Common Lisp because sometimes it will misidentify Common Lisp as iirc newLISP to the point where probably close to 100% of newLISP on Github and Gitlab (they use the same library) is a false positive from Common Lisp
<aeth> so at least in the context of #commonlisp it simply doesn't work
<aeth> iirc, it says "define" is newLISP so if you have a file full of DEFINE-CONDITIONs or custom DEFINE-FOO macros, you might get that file misidentified
<aeth> so, that's great: you can have an entirely standard Common Lisp program, but if you put your conditions in their own file...
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<dnhester26> Hi, I'm trying to save an md5 checksum to a DB: I'm getting a vector of unsigned bytes from ironclad, but for some reason I'm having issues saving it to the DB
<dnhester26> DB Error: number of array dimensions (1820849183) exceeds the maximum allowed (6) (Code: 54000)
<dnhester26> [Condition of type DBI.ERROR:DBI-DATABASE-ERROR]
<dnhester26> This is the error I'm getting:
<dnhester26> I set up the DB column to be `(md5byte :col-type (or :null (:bytea)))`
<dnhester26> Does anyone have any idea why?
<beach> What is DB/DBI?
<dnhester26> beach it's the library I'm using. Sorry, I'm using a package called mito and that uses another package called DBI. Actually, I think I may have just solved the issue
<dnhester26> Sorry for bothering
<dnhester26> I was stuck for an hour and just after I wrote this message I tried something different that seemed to work
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<dnhester26> If I want to overwrite how lisp will turn an object into a string, is the correct way to write a defmethod of print-object? If so, what package should I use assuming in a particular package? (defmethod sbcl:print-object)? or cl:print-object?
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<yitzi> print-object is in CL package
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<dnhester26> thanks yitzi, so just doing (defmethod print-object) is enough, or cl:print-object? I tried it in the repl and it worked, just not sure about doing it in my own package...
<dnhester26> or is it cl-user:print-object?
<yitzi> If your package has a :use #:cl in defpackage then you don't need to prefix with cl:
<dnhester26> ah ok, thanks yitzi, sorry for the simple questions
<yitzi> You are welcome...no worries
<dnhester26> besoros tovos
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<yitzi> ty
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<varjag> bloody local-nicknames are breaking a build on an old ccl
<varjag> whenabout they appeared?
<beach> Why are you using an old CCL?
<varjag> because it was new ccl when i started using it
<beach> I think CCL supports them now. Can you install a new version?
<varjag> possibly, but then i would need to check if nothing else breaks and that can take a while
<varjag> or maybe i just revert from jzon to yason
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<skeemer> how can i print a newline while using princ?
<skeemer> i tried (princ) and didn't work
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<Shinmera> varjag: a long time ago https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/377
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<varjag> sounds about right
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<varjag> bbl
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<NotThatRPG> skeemer: (Terpri)
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<beach> NotThatRPG: This was communicated in #clschool.
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<skeemer> thanks NotThatRPG anyway
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