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<flip214>
what happened to the ultra spec? not enough volunteers, I guess
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<beach>
flip214: I think phoe said that the Nova Spec is the Ultraspec done right.
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<beach>
September 13 2023: "and, yes, novaspec is ultraspec except it's done right and working"
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<flip214>
ah, ok, sorry. didn't look back that far. Thanks!
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<beach>
Sure.
<flip214>
well, the minimum of 2 characters for searching isn't obvious... perhaps "Type at least 2 characters here to search" would be better
<flip214>
and typing 2 characters and pressing enter shows the first page, even if there were lots of results
<beach>
In the Tymoon log, I typed written by phoe and contains ultraspec. I found it right away.
<flip214>
I also like the "Permuted Symbol Index" in clhs
<flip214>
the nova spec search shows the expected result for "w -op -s", but not for "w-op-s" -- perhaps searching for the characters with anything inbetween might be a good idea, like completion via swank does
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<flip214>
but it looks nice, right
<beach>
I like the permuted index as well.
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<beach>
Do you mean if YOU can publish it, or the current publisher?
<mfiano>
and his publisher likely has the rights for redistribution
<mfiano>
You will have to contact DEC and ask for permission, which is what this university did
<dnhester26>
They have mirrors, however the website looks like it's made in 1995. I want to just copy the site, put it in a docusaurus app in github to be easily searchable and make navigation easier by adding side panels without actually modifying any of the contents and leaving everything else as is
<dnhester26>
But it says divestiture of major assets.
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<mfiano>
the patent registry will show transfers of ownership
<mfiano>
or trademark etc
<mfiano>
Butterworth-Heinemann, some representative from the university holds some license granted to them. You could try to email them
<mfiano>
Also, even if you received permission from DEC, you would be in violation to host this
<dnhester26>
mfiano Why would it still be in violation?
<dnhester26>
I just emailed the university asking to host a mirror on a Docusaurus site which adds search and navigation panes, but leaving all content, images, and logos intact
<mfiano>
Because the HTML version is automatically copyrighter by the publisher, which happens to be a different entity.
<mfiano>
copyrighted
<dnhester26>
Oh, just got an error not found email
<mfiano>
See for example dPANS3 vs CLHS
<mfiano>
Or novaspec, etc. The reason we don't copy that
<dnhester26>
By the way the HyperSpec is owned by Allegro, because they did some work on the original. What / where is the original?
<dnhester26>
Does that imply the original is free?
<mfiano>
The original was ANSI standard
<mfiano>
You can pay ANSI for a crappy photocopied document that is barely legible if you want that original
<beach>
dnhester26: The copyright for the HTML of the HyperSpec is by LispWorks.
<mfiano>
Yes, LW no ACL
<mfiano>
If you asked ANSI if you could publish the standard and then you went and published CLHS...that is essentially what you are asking here
<mfiano>
Just don't do it.
<dnhester26>
mfiano why not? ANSI will not allow it?
<mfiano>
I think I just explained that ANSI is not the only entity here.
<mfiano>
You need permission from the first party, not the third
<mfiano>
The only public domain document is dPANS3!
<dnhester26>
The question is if having a wrapper around it is considered a change, but it's really leaving the content instact with just a wrapper around...
<ixelp>
CLHS: About the Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM)
<mfiano>
I think you should read the license again
<mfiano>
s/license/legal notice/
<dnhester26>
mfiano meaning adding the wrapper is considered derivative work?
<mfiano>
It must be COMPLETELY unmodified
<mfiano>
no wrapper
<mfiano>
with COMPLETE and UNMODIFIED emphasized like so
<mfiano>
Also note that this is a different document than LispWorks, which has a different legal notice.
<mfiano>
They were both compiled from the draft standard that is in the public domain. You can grab the tex sources and compile your own version without any encumberance, which presumably is what novaspec, cl-community-spec, and of course LW and Harlequinn did.
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<beach>
dnhester26: I have a suggestion. We have been toying with the idea of creating a language reference for Common Lisp, as a website. Maybe you could do something like that instead. It would start with the dpANS, and then we could collectively add material.
<dnhester26>
beach yes, thank you. Can you please point me in the right direction to get the dpANS I saw in google/github there's a dpANSR (note the R) in the end which is more updated. Can you point me to a file/package which is copyright free that I can use?
<beach>
I forget the right place. I have it myself locally. But several other people here I am sure know it.
<beach>
dnhester26: If there were an easy way to contribute to such a web site, I would do it regularly. And I am sure many others would as well.
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<dnhester26>
beach Thanks, I will do it now.
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<beach>
dnhester26: Er, that's a lot of work. You may need to take more time.
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<jcowan>
Per 1.5.1.2, CL implementations are supposed to come with a document specifying the choices made for implementation-defined (and possibly implementation-specified) features. I'm having trouble finding such a document for existing CLs.
<ixelp>
GitHub - lisp-docs/cl-language-reference: Common Lisp New Language Reference
<dnhester26>
Can you add the file over there? What's your username to make you an admin?
<dnhester26>
Would anyone else like to join?
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<dnhester26>
The site obviously needs the content, but now we have a simple site going
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<beach>
Great! My name on GitHub is robert-strandh.
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<mfiano>
and mine the same as here
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<dnhester26>
mfiano I thought yours was informatigo or something like that?
<mfiano>
No?
<dnhester26>
mfiano sory got confused with someone else
<dnhester26>
I've made both of you "owners" of the organization
<dnhester26>
To commit to any of the repositories you may have to go into the settings of that repository and add yourselves as an admin
<dnhester26>
I didn't actually have to add myself as an admin or member of the repo to push commits, but somehow to deploy the website I had to, not sure why the permissions in github are different
<beach>
dnhester26: What markup should we use for the pages?
<dnhester26>
MarkDown
<dnhester26>
Because it's the default that docusaurus allows
<dnhester26>
Just to let anyone join
<dnhester26>
It's very beginner friendly
<dnhester26>
And it's default in github etc
<beach>
Are you sure it can represent anything we need for Common Lisp?
<beach>
I don't know it, so it's a real question.
<dnhester26>
I could make a site use org mode or other things
<dnhester26>
yeah
<dnhester26>
```common-lisp
<beach>
Well, there are special characters in the standard, but this is not the standard, so we can probably avoid those.
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<jcowan>
dnhester26: informatigo = pjb
<dnhester26>
jcowan thanks
<jcowan>
beach: presumably there are no non-Unicode characters in the CL standard, so Markdown won't have a problem there.
<beach>
jcowan: There is a strange arrow that didn't make it into the HyperSpec.
<jcowan>
hmm, what does it look like in printed form?
<beach>
jcowan: There might not be any Unicode characters, but TeX was used to produce the standard, so anything TeX can do could be in it.
<beach>
It looks like an arrow, I think a down arrow.
<beach>
And I forget where. Brucio-61 would know.
<jcowan>
There are a number of down arrows in Unicode.
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<beach>
That's good. But we then don't know whether Markdown is able to represent them.
<Shinmera>
markdown uses unicode.
<jcowan>
Markdown can represent any Unicode character.
<beach>
Oh, OK. Good to know.
<jcowan>
it's basically defined as a transformation into HTML.
<Renfield>
Hi, I'm trying to change directory (in SBCL): (uiop:chdir "code/lisp") But load does not work: (load "line2.lisp"), can't find the file. Not sure what's going on.
<beach>
Renfield: You may have to assign to that one.
<Renfield>
Okay, thanks I'll read up on it.
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<mfiano>
beach: assign, hmm?
<jcowan>
beach: there are about 60 styles of down arrows in Unicode. To pick one at random, DOWNWARDS BLACK CIRCLED WHITE ARROW: evaluate (princ (character #x2B8B)). If you see it as a sort of U, then you need to switch figure and ground in your brain.
<beach>
Got it.
<beach>
mfiano: No?
<dnhester26>
beach mfiano the code coloring was actually broken, had to fix it. They don't support an official common-lisp, rather just a lisp coloring which I'm using for now. There are open source projects that have markdown for common lisp code blocks, if we need them I can add it. Here is how it looks https://lisp-docs.github.io/blog
<ixelp>
Blog | Lisp Docs
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<beach>
I see.
<mfiano>
Today I learned 'assign' is valid in CL-speak, as per the glossary definition. I guess I don't pay attention much, but have never used that personally.
<mfiano>
Color is over-rated
<beach>
Oh, hmm. What did you think SETQ does?
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<mfiano>
Did you know syntax highlighting was invented in 1982 to help children learn BASIC?
<mfiano>
beach: I thought it does what it does, I just didn't use the terminology of 'assign', 'assignment', etc that are all so common and in other languages to connote that.
<beach>
Right, but what word have you been using to describe what SETQ does?
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<mfiano>
I would normally speak in terms of mutation, so probably 'mutate', or just 'setf'.
<beach>
I see.
<jcowan>
and I simply don't use setq or its setf variant very much, so I don't need to talk about it.
<mfiano>
But, to answer the original question, I would not assign here.
<Renfield>
But that only temporarily changes the value, while within the (let), right? If I'm at the REPL, isn't it more convenient to use (setf)? Maybe I should have mentioned I'm at the REPL.
<mfiano>
Then you have the possibility of ruining what everything else in your Lisp image expects
<Renfield>
I don't know what that means. Still learning Lisp.
<mfiano>
Common Lisp doesn't have global variables, thankfully.
<Renfield>
Huh, I'm getting more confused with each sentence you provide.
<mfiano>
A special variable, those *THAT-LOOK-LIKE-THIS* in syntax, are not global variables, they are dynamic special variables.
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<mfiano>
They contain potentially many values; a stack of them. Where the caller can temporarily suspend the previous value by pushing a new one on top, and it will dynamically pop off when the dynamic environment is exited.
<mfiano>
But, this is a topic for #clschool I think.
<mfiano>
If you aren't there yet, there's a lot of decent help there for these kinds of things.
<Renfield>
From Practical Common Lisp, "Common Lisp provides two ways to create global variables: DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER."
<mfiano>
They are globally special
<Renfield>
Okay.
<beach>
That's probably a pedagogical simplification.
<mfiano>
They aren't global in the sense that they are static values at the global scope as per other languages.
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<mfiano>
If you're familiar with Scheme, they borrowed this idea there as, IIRC, "Parameter Objects".
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<jcowan>
Except (to be pedantic about it) that parameter objects are first-class whereas special variables are not. The Scheme equivalent of a special variable is a global variable (necessarily lexical, since all variables in Scheme are lexical) whose value is a parameter object.
<jcowan>
I actually figured out a case where you want to store a parameter object in a dictionary (hash table, alist, etc.), but I can't remember what it is now.
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<bike>
srfi 39 parameters seem to be procedures rather than their own type. scheme people sure like making everything procedures.
<bike>
you can get the same kind of effect in lisp by throwing symbols around and using symbol-value, of course, it's just a bit rare to want to do that
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<jcowan>
bike: Rather they are (fun)callables, a concept Scheme doesn't have
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<bike>
in kernel you get two procedures, one to read and one to bind. i'm a little surprised scheme apparently doesn't do that. and in racket you do get a distinct kind of parameter object, which is apparently a subtype of procedure.
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<bike>
not that having a bind procedure instead of parameterize/progv wouldn't be hugely annoying in practice, i imagine
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