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<beach>
lispmacs[work]: You can use an adjustable vector as a circular list, and only resize when it gets full or less than 25% full. In fact, you can use the Flexichain library for that. It can be used as a FIFO with good performance.
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<beach>
When I created the Flexichain library, I was not very experienced with modularity in Common Lisp, so I am not proud of the names of the protocol functions, and I might redo it some day. But otherwise, the library is extensively tested, so I am fairly confident it works.
<beach>
The library hasn't been modified for years, which would make some of the people who use software written in languages that evolve think it is abandoned. But it is just that there has been no particular reason to change it.
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<jcowan>
beach: I've been thinking about your repeated claims that languages without standards are unacceptable for professional work (if I understand you correctly)
<beach>
And I am sure you don't agree.
<jcowan>
C++ is standardized by ISO, which is as standardized as you can get, yet there have been 6 standard versions in 22 years
<beach>
I never said that every language with a standard *is* acceptable.
<jcowan>
I'm not speaking here of the content of the standard
<beach>
I never said that the fact that a language has a standard makes it acceptable.
<jcowan>
presumably what's good about standards is stability and vendor-independence, do we agree on that?
<beach>
Those are important, yes.
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<jcowan>
so my point is that standardizing by a standards organization guarantees neither: they arise from the attitude of the community.
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<beach>
And, I repeat, I never said that. You are turning the implication arrow around.
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<beach>
I just said that a language *without* a standard has the problems I often repeat, and I have never said that a language *with* a standard lacks those problems.
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<jcowan>
So if CL ceased to be standardized by ANSI it would in your view develop the problems in question?
<jcowan>
Because we are very close to that now. The dead minimum to expect from a standards body is that you can order the standard from it.
<beach>
I never mentioned ANSI by name.
<jcowan>
You didn't mention CL by name either, as far as I recall.
<jcowan>
so if CL is not an exemplar of a standardsized language, what language did you have in mind
<beach>
Your question contained ANSI. So the answer to your question is "no", it is not the fact that Common Lisp is standardized by ANSI that is important. It could be standardized by some other organization.
<jcowan>
?
<jcowan>
But it is not.
<beach>
I never said that the fact that you can't order the standard from ANSI is a minimum requirement. You did.
<beach>
You are putting words in my mouth and then you draw conclusions from them that you think I am obliged to share.
<jcowan>
I am not trying to prove you inconsistent or even wrong, though it may look that way. I am trying to understand the basis of your thinking by asking (admittedly somewhat leading) questions.
<beach>
It sure looks like a strawman to me.
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<beach>
Furthermore, I think I always used the term "independent standard" meaning that the standard is created by an organization that separate from the one controlling the only or major implementation of it.
<beach>
*that is separate
<jcowan>
What kind of orgaanization?
<beach>
And ANSI is not the only possible independent organization.
<beach>
I think I used the term "reputable organization".
<jcowan>
(Given the evidence of the OOXML standard, which is not even implementable without reference to Microsoft products, wwe are in the position of saying that ISO itself is not a reputable standards organization, I think. But that's by the way.)
<beach>
It is really hard for me to believe that you haven't understood the point I am making after such a long time, given that you seem to be a smart person.
<yitzi>
Personally, since there are some very good open source CL implementations now, a new "reputable organization" is composed of the individuals who are active in those implementations and WSCL, s-expressionsists, etc. We don't need ANSI, IMHO.
<beach>
I have also not said that every standard published by a reputable organization is a good one.
<beach>
Again, you are turning the implication arrow around.
<jcowan>
yitzi: I agree. Unfortunately, there are people (beach has not said if he is one) who reserve the term "standard" for the work product of international or national standards bodies.
<beach>
jcowan: I have never mentioned any international or national standards bodies.
<jcowan>
Then how do you define the term "standard"?
<beach>
For a programming language, a detailed specification of the syntax and semantics of the language, including mention of unspecified situations, consequences when a program or an implementation is not conforming.
<beach>
jcowan: Maybe you don't know this, but there is no particular legal status for standards organizations. Anyone can create a company or an association and include "standards organization" in the name.
<beach>
yitzi: Whether that would be a "reputable" organization would be up to others, of course.
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<yitzi>
beach: True. Obviously there needs to be an organized committee with proposals and an actual produced standard, but there is nothing stopping us from starting one modulo time, interest ....
<beach>
Absolutely.
<yitzi>
I don't think we can do much about adoption in Allegro and LispWorks, but the barrier to adoption by the open source implementations is very low, i.e. just write the code and submit a PR.
<jcowan>
There most certainly is a legal definition in the U.S. for a standards-defining organization. Otherwise it would be an illegal conspiracy in restraint of trade.
<beach>
yitzi: Sure.
<scymtym>
sounds to me like it could be easier to directly define properties of acceptable standard documents and standadization processes rather than including the organization in the definition. would be harder to talk about concepts like indepdence in that framework, of course
<jcowan>
As Kent Pitman said the other night in his talk, the ANSI people told him and other CL participants that the main job of a standards organization is not being sued, and actually defining standards comes after that.
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<beach>
jcowan: If you find that legal definition, I would like to see it. But again, I have never restricted my opinions to such standards-defining organizations.
<beach>
All I have said is "independent" and "reputable".
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<yitzi>
I suspect that if there is no "trade" component to the standard or restriction in use or reproduction then the legal aspects are moot.
<scymtym>
there could be other legal aspects if a standard is intended to be referenced in actual laws
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<yitzi>
True
<beach>
So let me state my opinion one more time.
<beach>
If a programming "language" does not have an "independent standard", meaning that the definition of the language is made by an organization that is tightly coupled with the organization that creates the only or the major implementation of that "language", then the use of that language in a professional project is risky, because the "language" may evolve in ways that make the code of the project break or at least require unplanned
<beach>
So then, the project should also make a risk analysis that contains the cost to the project of such an evolution, and actions that can be taken to minimize the risk, such as also creating a team of language-implementation experts that can maintain an implementation of the version of the standard that the project was based on.
<jcowan>
Per 42 U.S. Code § 1320d, the term “standard setting organization” means a standard setting organization accredited by the American National Standards Institute, including the National Council for Prescription Drug Programs, that develops standards for information transactions, data elements, or any other standard that is necessary to, or will facilitate, the implementation of this part [of the law].
<jcowan>
Unfortunately, this definition is circular.
<beach>
Still, good to know that it exists.
<bike>
that's in the pretty specific context of health data for social security purposes.
<bike>
I don't think (and honestly, I really doubt) that there is a law saying you can't promulgate a standard without ANSI accreditation, not least because ANSI is a private organization.
<bike>
at least in the US. no idea about anywhere else.
<beach>
I am sure it's the same in most other places.
<yitzi>
Pretty sure that is a statute not actually a law.
<bike>
those are the same thing actually.
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<yitzi>
I think you could find some pretty amazing delegations to "private" organizations in US statutes. Most of which is completely untested in court.
<bike>
oh, absolutely.
<bike>
they don't even have to make stuff freely available, even if it's part of the law or regulations. it's pretty bad.
<bike>
I would be interested in seeing any case where a judge ruled that a promulgated standard constituted an illegal cartel.
<yitzi>
Yeah, so I would conclude that unless there is case law that the statutes are meaningless.
<bike>
well the thing is this statute (42 USC 1320d) doesn't say anything remotely like that it's illegal to promulgate a standard. It's just defining what kinds of standards the HHS Secretary can adopt as part of federal regulations.
<bike>
And even then the secretary can make arbitrary modifications, or make something up if no standard is available.
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<aeth>
that's definitely the major downside of the new image format
<bike>
(that's 1320d-1(c))
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<bike>
and, to be clear, this definition of a standard setting organization is stated to only apply to this part, i.e. to 42 USC 1320, which is the "administrative simplification" setting of the law on social security.
<bike>
which in turn sort of implies there's no more global definition in the US Code, although i wouldn't put it past legislators to have put in redundant definitions because they forgot they already defined something
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<bike>
so this is all really far afield from common lisp.
<aeth>
JPEG XL seems nice, but it's 208 CHF (roughly the same in USD or EUR) for one of the standards documents (do you need more? who knows!) if you wanted to write a CL library for it!
<bike>
christ. what a racket. an accredited racket, no less.
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<beach>
scymtym: The definition of an "acceptable standards document" would be an "only of" and not and "if and only if".
<aeth>
bike: and yet all other new image formats are based on video formats (including WebP and AVIF) and/or are patented
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<beach>
aeth: Standards organization are often financed, at least in part, form the sales of their documents.
<aeth>
yes
<beach>
scymtym: GAH! "only if" I mean.
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<bike>
let's see, here's another legaly thing... 21 CFR 10.95(d) is about the situations in which an FDA employee may participate in non-FDA standardization operations. it doesn't define what kind of organizations can be involved, e.g. does not mention ANSI, instead only giving some requirements like that the organization can't be for price fixing.
<yitzi>
So FDA employees can't be involved in price fixing of non-FDA related products like automobile tires, but other gov employees can? ;)
<bike>
heck, maybe.
<aeth>
And maybe 210 $/€ is fair if it's a full library, but I mostly just want to (for now) parse parts of it to see what's going on. Most image formats these days are very complex, to the point where there's essentially multiple types of things under one extension.
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<bike>
i just found ANSI's own "why bother with us" page, which doesn't mention legal compulsion, but does talk about how it can be useful they are for dealing with the WTO, with what sounds like a question of fending off cartel accusations https://www.ansi.org/american-national-standards/ans-introduction/overview
<bike>
and i think that's enough pretending i'm a paralegal for the moment
<lispmacs[work]>
beach: okay, thanks, I'll take a look at that
<jcowan>
bike: someone has to pay for all those meetings, secretarial support, etc. etc.
<jcowan>
bike: Yes, that one is, but definitions do get copied from one statute to the next
<bike>
sure, but i don't see it in any other statutes.
<bike>
based on my extensive ten minutes of searching
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<beach>
lispmacs[work]: Good luck!
<beach>
bike: Heh!
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<lispmacs[work]>
beach: I'm having some trouble getting the flexichain documentation built, because I can't seem to find the mktexfmt program in my distro
<lispmacs[work]>
I've got a package that provides fmtutil, but not mktexfmt
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<lispmacs[work]>
maybe you could send me the PDF?
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<lispmacs[work]>
well, looks like the tex file is somewhat human readable
<lispmacs[work]>
might be good enough
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<beach>
Thanks for letting me know about the documentation. I'll try to see what I can do, but perhaps not today.
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<beach>
Never seen it.
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<beach>
Anyway, you have the PDF.
<lispmacs[work]>
okay, thanks. maybe somebody I'll take some more time to learn about LaTeX and figure out what has gone wrong here
<beach>
To use it as a queue, you can use the push-end and pop-start operations.
<beach>
Or the other way around.
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<beach>
The documentation delivered in the Quicklisp distribution also does not build, by the way.
<lispmacs[work]>
beach: when you pop-start/push-end, does it just update a pointer? or does it shift stuff around?
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<beach>
It does not move the data.
<beach>
It will keep a vector as a circular buffer.
<lispmacs[work]>
beach: does the data wrap around the chain? how does it deal with wrap around when the chain has to be resized?
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<beach>
Yes, the data wraps around, so that the gap (the empty zone) can be partly at the beginning an partly at the end of the vector.
<beach>
When the vector is resized, it preserves the position of the gap.
<beach>
It is particularly efficient to use a Flexichain as a stack or a queue, but the operations that insert/delete elements anywhere are fairly efficient as well, especially if there is some spatial locality in the operations.
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<lispmacs[work]>
I see there are some diagrams here in the PDF so I am looking at that
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<beach>
Oh, right.
<lispmacs[work]>
I need it is a FIFO queue
<beach>
Right.
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<beach>
On the average, you won't save any space compared to a list, but you will save a lot in allocation and garbage collection.
<beach>
The reason you won't save any space is that, on the average, half the space in the vector is the gap. So that's the same as having a list of CONS cells where every cell contains a pointer to the next one.
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<josrr>
lispmacs[work]: in Debian the package texlive-base contains mktexfmt