tibfulv has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tibfulv has joined #commonlisp
donleo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
qhong has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
qhong has joined #commonlisp
chiselfuse has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chiselfuse has joined #commonlisp
chomwitt has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jmdaemon has joined #commonlisp
rgherdt has quit [Quit: Leaving]
mgl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
matt` has joined #commonlisp
matt` has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
csos95 has quit [Server closed connection]
csos95 has joined #commonlisp
tibfulv has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tibfulv has joined #commonlisp
kevingal_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
anticrisis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
anticrisis has joined #commonlisp
jfh_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jfh has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
jfh_ has joined #commonlisp
jfh has joined #commonlisp
bh34e5 has joined #commonlisp
varjag has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
xlymian has joined #commonlisp
varjag has joined #commonlisp
varjag has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
avocadoist has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
anticomputer has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
xlymian has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
triffid has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
triffid has joined #commonlisp
gnoo has quit [Quit: IRCNow and Forever!]
habamax has joined #commonlisp
triffid has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
triffid has joined #commonlisp
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bh34e5 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
edr has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dajole has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
waleee has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
init has joined #commonlisp
avocadoist has joined #commonlisp
avocadoist has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Spawns is now known as Spawns_Carpeting
bitmapper has joined #commonlisp
jobhdez has joined #commonlisp
<jobhdez>
how good is common lisp for server side programming?
<beach>
How is server-side programming special?
<jobhdez>
are there good libraries/frameworks?
<beach>
Oh, I see.
<jobhdez>
but hey beach I wanted to ask you since youre a compiler expert. what do you think about rackets hygienic macros? are they really an improvement over common lisp's macros?
<beach>
I don't know Racket particularly, but I assume they are the same as in Scheme, yes?
<jobhdez>
yes
<beach>
I haven't given it much thought, honestly. I don't have a particular problem with Common Lisp macros that needs to be fixed.
<jobhdez>
oh ok, interesting. thanks! hows your compiler coming along?
<jobhdez>
your common lisp implementation
<beach>
There is only slow progress on SICL itself, but we have extracted lots of things to separate libraries, and they are being worked on daily. The idea is to reduce SICL code to its unique features, and use libraries for the rest.
<beach>
Then, those libraries can be used by other implementations too.
certainty has joined #commonlisp
<moon-child>
jobhdez: whether scheme macros are a good idea is principally a language design question, not a compilers question
<beach>
It is interesting how much can be extracted into implementation-independent libraries when you thing about it carefully.
<jobhdez>
beach thats great! why are you dividing your compiler into libraries?
<jobhdez>
moon-child yea youre right. i kind of just wanted to hear beachs opinion
<beach>
jobhdez: The idea is to try to decrease the global maintenance burden by convincing other implementations (perhaps new ones) to use those libraries rather than their implementation-specific code. This was in fact the original idea with the SICL project.
<beach>
But I think only one other implementation is taking advantage of this so far.
<jobhdez>
beach thats a very cool way to do things. youre building like an infrastructure for common lisp implementations.
<beach>
Yes, exactly.
<aeth>
hygienic macros seem to be more of an issue in a "lisp-1" (combined variable/function namespace) than in a "lisp-2" (separate variable/function namespace) like Common Lisp (in quotes because there are more than 2 namespaces! in fact, classes/types are just as important as the other two main ones!)
<aeth>
because it's way easier to get accidental name collisions in a lisp-1
<beach>
jobhdez: And not just me. I have lots of help.
<aeth>
so hygiene seems to matter more
<beach>
aeth: Oh, interesting observation. That sounds plausible.
<aeth>
additionally, Common Lisp locks the exports of COMMON-LISP from redefinition
<aeth>
and packages in general help
<hayley>
I got to deal with circularity between some modules in an implementation (not of Common Lisp). For example, my condition system uses dynamic bindings, and my implementation of dynamic bindings depends on the condition system.
<moon-child>
I don't see the connection to the number of namespaces
<aeth>
moon-child: to come across the main practical hygiene issue that exists in Scheme macros, it still exists in CL, but you'd need an internal FLET (already quite rare; LETs for local variables are far more common) and you'd need a symbol name collision (but you probably only USE CL in common, and the CL package is package locked)
<moon-child>
I do agree the package system is significant, but I find that somewhat tenuous as there's an extent to which macros tend not to actually be hygienic
<aeth>
and if you're FLETing some-other-package::foo, you kinda know what you're doing, I think
<moon-child>
USE has nothing to do with anything
<aeth>
USE has everything to do with everything
<moon-child>
I don't like scheme macros principally because I think they add a great deal of complexity to the language and don't give anything back
<aeth>
moon-child: (1) lisp-2 means the main collision is from FLET because functions tend to be the global thing that matters here (and the few global variables are *earmuffed* anyway), (2) USE is the only possible way you're going to accidentally use the same symbol-name in two different contexts because of the package namespacing
<aeth>
I mean, the same symbol, matching both symbol-name and package-name
<aeth>
so hygiene issues that happen all of the time with defmacro/define-macro in Scheme just don't come up much in Common Lisp unless you seek them out
<moon-child>
so, like I said, the macros are not actually hygienic
<aeth>
defmacro/define-macro are the CL-style macros in Scheme (and aren't standard, which is why there's two names for them)
<aeth>
define-syntax is the hygienic way
<moon-child>
unless you write everything as (funcall 'foo ...) instead of (foo ...), which is not very nice
<aeth>
huh? I don't think you understand my point
<moon-child>
I don't think we're in disagreement. cl macros tend to be unhygienic in ways that usually don't cause bugs in practice. do you disagree?
<aeth>
moon-child: hygienic macros exist so you don't have something like (flet ((foo ...) ...) ... (some-macro ...)) where some-macro uses its own FOO function that does something totally different and you accidentally are using another FOO in that context. Though technically you can gensym every function like you gensym every variable binding... people just don't.
<aeth>
and it would be annoying and barely readable to have to do that
zxcvz has joined #commonlisp
<aeth>
both being a lisp-2 (needs to be in the function namespace) and having packages for (a different kind of) namespacing means you usually don't get this
<moon-child>
I don't understand why you would gensym a function. The solution to (flet ((foo ...)) (some-macro)) is to make the expansion of some-macro use (funcall 'foo ...) in place of (foo ...)
zxcvz has quit [Client Quit]
<aeth>
that also never happens
<moon-child>
like I said
jjnkn has joined #commonlisp
dcb has quit [Quit: MSN Messenger 4.1.1]
notzmv has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
jjnkn has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jobhdez has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
zxcvz has joined #commonlisp
Alfr has quit [Killed (copper.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))]
Alfr has joined #commonlisp
pyooque has joined #commonlisp
pyooque is now known as puke
puke has quit [Killed (lead.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))]
hineios22 has joined #commonlisp
ns124 has joined #commonlisp
EsoAlgo811 has joined #commonlisp
childlikempress has joined #commonlisp
Shinmera- has joined #commonlisp
jrm2 has joined #commonlisp
copec_ has joined #commonlisp
hrberg_ has joined #commonlisp
lacedaemon has joined #commonlisp
gpiero_ has joined #commonlisp
semarie_ has joined #commonlisp
semarie has quit [Killed (tantalum.libera.chat (Nickname regained by services))]
semarie_ is now known as semarie
pi1 has joined #commonlisp
even4voi1 has joined #commonlisp
doyougnu- has joined #commonlisp
theBlack1ragon has joined #commonlisp
jaimelm_ has joined #commonlisp
jeffrey_ has joined #commonlisp
Pixel_Outlaw has quit [Quit: Leaving]
adeht- has joined #commonlisp
even4void has quit [*.net *.split]
hrberg has quit [*.net *.split]
EsoAlgo81 has quit [*.net *.split]
saturn2 has quit [*.net *.split]
copec has quit [*.net *.split]
Shinmera has quit [*.net *.split]
Brucio-61 has quit [*.net *.split]
jrm has quit [*.net *.split]
jeffrey has quit [*.net *.split]
moon-child has quit [*.net *.split]
hineios2 has quit [*.net *.split]
gpiero has quit [*.net *.split]
theBlackDragon has quit [*.net *.split]
doyougnu has quit [*.net *.split]
johnjaye has quit [*.net *.split]
ns12 has quit [*.net *.split]
jaimelm has quit [*.net *.split]
fe[nl]ix has quit [*.net *.split]
adeht has quit [*.net *.split]
EsoAlgo811 is now known as EsoAlgo81
jrm2 is now known as jrm
copec_ is now known as copec
Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera
hineios22 is now known as hineios2
theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon
ns124 is now known as ns12
Brucio-61 has joined #commonlisp
jeffrey_ is now known as jeffrey
jobhdez has joined #commonlisp
shka has joined #commonlisp
<jobhdez>
lisp is beauty and was indeed discovered and not invented
saturn2 has joined #commonlisp
triffid has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
triffid has joined #commonlisp
_triffid has joined #commonlisp
triffid has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jrm has quit [Quit: ciao]
jrm has joined #commonlisp
rgherdt has joined #commonlisp
notzmv has joined #commonlisp
anticrisis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hrberg_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<beach>
younder: I never click on links unless there is a short description of what it is.
<younder>
The guy is briliant. He developed a .so file which updated a running program. He developen a complete deep nural network from scratch.
<younder>
beach: There is your description
<beach>
Yes, thank you.
_cymew_ has joined #commonlisp
<jobhdez>
beach sorry for yet another question. but in your point of view what makes common lisp great for developing compilers?
pve has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
I Think I wil interfere here. There is a problem with cffi. In the way it marshalls structures. It needs be be faster if you want to gent into that 60 FPS mark
<beach>
jobhdez: I think basically the same things that make it great for other things: Interactive development, macros, CLOS, convenient list functions, etc.
<beach>
jobhdez: Oh, and automatic memory management of course.
<younder>
I NEED a better way to load packed structures
<younder>
clear enough
<jobhdez>
beach thanks! i have built a few toy compilers. need to build a toy optimizing compiler next. i have used common lisp for these
<beach>
jobhdez: Of course! :)
<younder>
Is there a possibility that we can get in a agrement on some sort of standard for faster packed structure transmission. I am working with Vulkan. It totally sucks
<beach>
younder: Write up a suggestion and submit it.
<younder>
Write a submission to who? I am somewhat of a ignoramous he. I dont really know how these things work.
<younder>
here
<beach>
I don't know the domain in question, so I don't know the right forum for it. Maybe start here.
<younder>
I have no problem coming up with amodel. A huge prooblem making it a standarrd
<beach>
younder: You wanted it to be a standard, so the only way I can see is for you to suggest something. It is certainly not going to become a standard by itself.
<younder>
I loGot it! write the code. See if it staicks
tibfulv has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<younder>
I am officialy rewriting that cffi code
tibfulv has joined #commonlisp
jobhdez has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
thollief has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
You guys are really pissing me off!
<hayley>
If you want to act that entitled to an opinion, I'm glad to hear it.
mgl_ has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
Well it is simmple. The CFFI path is a 30 FMS. and I need 60 FPS
<hayley>
Then go fix it, if it is simple.
<younder>
Absoluteley
<hayley>
I'll be here if you need further pissing off.
<younder>
Furyis what drives me :-)
Lord_of_Life_ has joined #commonlisp
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
Gleefre has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
IOK, I found thr problrm,But yopu are not gonna like it
<younder>
You are way to dynamic. You have to commit
<younder>
.so is .so. Thats it
<younder>
no runtime rel<ding
_cymew_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
donleo has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has joined #commonlisp
Gleefre has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
avocadoist has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
kevingal_ has joined #commonlisp
Algernon69 has joined #commonlisp
matt` has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
Hmm, is this behavior of SBCL conforming: (defun foo () (defun bar ())) and then (eq (progn (foo) (fdefinition 'bar)) (progn (foo) (fdefinition 'bar))) => T ?
danza has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
<Shinmera>
Some days I feel my life draining out of me when I have to listen to other game developers' opinions
<beach>
You have no choice but to listen to them?
<Shinmera>
I read this chat. I can't know what someone writes without reading it
<beach>
Good point.
inline has joined #commonlisp
<Shinmera>
Anyway, I guess I'll forever be doing things that countless people keep saying would never work and cannot work
<beach>
Sure, you can't write a game in a language with automatic memory management, just as you can't write an OS in such a language.
<beach>
Everybody knows that.
<Shinmera>
Yeah, can't reach 60fps with so much dynamism, it'd be heresy
<Shinmera>
:)
<beach>
Exactly.
<Shinmera>
Just gotta write everything in C, it's too bad, but that's the way the world is
<Shinmera>
What do you mean my machine isn't a PDP 11???
ym has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
kevingal_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jjnkn has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
cage has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has joined #commonlisp
<hayley>
Dave Chisnall moment
<hayley>
I'm willing to bet brownie points that it would be possible to reload with whatever scheme is suggested.
<hayley>
beach: About your code with nested DEFUN forms, I think the rule that evaluating a lambda expression multiple times may produce the same closure is relevant.
<hayley>
"If name is a lambda expression, then a lexical closure is returned. In situations where a closure over the same set of bindings might be produced more than once, the various resulting closures might or might not be eq."
<beach>
Great! Thank you!
<hayley>
I once read that "a good parallel GC is a 10 year long research project for a talented team", and reading that cured my impostor syndrome. Well, except that I'm not sure if I've achieved the "good" part.
<beach>
Good for you!
contrapunctus has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
contrapunctus has joined #commonlisp
<hayley>
Someone reported to me that the benchmarks for his library were much slower with my collector, and I found the slowdown is due to there being about twice as many cache misses with my collector. The benchmark doesn't produce much fragmentation (that I can measure), but it looks like compaction would help with locality anyway.
yitzi has joined #commonlisp
rgherdt has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
rgherdt has joined #commonlisp
amb007 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
amb007 has joined #commonlisp
jmdaemon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
chomwitt has joined #commonlisp
bh34e5 has joined #commonlisp
zxcvz has quit [Quit: zxcvz]
mgl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
chomwitt has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
xlymian has joined #commonlisp
chomwitt has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
_cymew_ has joined #commonlisp
xlymian has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #commonlisp
_cymew_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
yitzi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
amb007 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
amb007 has joined #commonlisp
xlymian has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
waleee has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
bjorkintosh has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
xlymian has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
mgl_ has joined #commonlisp
mgl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mgl_ has joined #commonlisp
mgl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
bjorkintosh has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Quit: Client closed]
bjorkintosh has quit [Quit: Leaving]
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
cmack has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
cmack has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
hayley: seems to me te cure is more memory. With 32 Gb everything works like greased lightning.. Untill it all comes crasshing down
monospod has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
for the recor tons of RAM (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 32768"))
cmack has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<younder>
of cource more RAM helps everuthing.. I have 128 Gb
<younder>
except spelling
bjorkintosh has joined #commonlisp
<younder>
On the whole this machine is so fucking fast I may never be able to use a 'normal' one again. I have been spoiled
cmack has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
younder: How about you turn on your spell checker.
mgl_ has joined #commonlisp
init is now known as wadadli
wadadli is now known as init
<younder>
beach: it's all or nothing. If it turn it on in emacs it wants to check the entire buffer including all the names
init is now known as wadadli
<younder>
I would have to write a entire mode to check that IRC syntax correctly.
<beach>
Not at all. Just enable flyspell mode.
<younder>
Enabled
<younder>
beach: I was using ispell
<younder>
thanks
<beach>
Sure.
wadadli is now known as init
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
yitzi has joined #commonlisp
zetef has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
mgl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
jobhdez has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
kevingal_ has joined #commonlisp
bh34e5 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
dcb has joined #commonlisp
reb has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
monospod has quit [Quit: Leaving]
lucasta has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
mrcom has joined #commonlisp
yitzi_ has joined #commonlisp
yitzi has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jobhdez has quit [Quit: Client closed]
jjnkn has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has joined #commonlisp
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
prokhor has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
danlitt has joined #commonlisp
kevingal_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
molson has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
molson has joined #commonlisp
molson has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
molson has joined #commonlisp
tyson2` has joined #commonlisp
reb has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jjnkn has quit [Quit: leaving]
deadmarshal_ has quit [*.net *.split]
akoana has joined #commonlisp
deadmarshal_ has joined #commonlisp
prokhor has joined #commonlisp
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tyson2` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
mgl_ has joined #commonlisp
certainty has joined #commonlisp
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
inline has quit [Quit: Leaving]
cage has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 29.1]
phil_bb has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
amb007 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
amb007 has joined #commonlisp
inline has joined #commonlisp
certainty has joined #commonlisp
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
yitzi_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Oladon has joined #commonlisp
_cymew_ has joined #commonlisp
lagash has joined #commonlisp
zetef has joined #commonlisp
lagash has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
certainty has joined #commonlisp
_cymew_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
phil has joined #commonlisp
zetef has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
zetef has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
thollief has quit [Quit: Leaving]
attila_lendvai has joined #commonlisp
contrapunctus has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
zxcvz has joined #commonlisp
zxcvz has quit [Client Quit]
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #commonlisp
anticrisis has joined #commonlisp
gooba has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
gooba has joined #commonlisp
certainty has joined #commonlisp
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
rgherdt has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
kevingal_ has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
kevingal_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
habamax has joined #commonlisp
attila_lendvai has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
mgl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
rgherdt has joined #commonlisp
sjl has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
X-Scale has quit [Quit: Client closed]
shka has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
inline has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
certainty has joined #commonlisp
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
avocadoist has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<hayley>
I am not going to throw more memory at it.
matt` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<hayley>
Nor would that help here.
certainty has joined #commonlisp
danlitt has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Oladon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
certainty has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
pve has quit [Quit: leaving]
inline has joined #commonlisp
manwithluck has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
manwithluck has joined #commonlisp
ronald_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
dino_tutter has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]