ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
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<Ellowee[m]> Python lol
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<sewn> hi
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<aelspire> Hi
<aelspire> glfw segfaults when losing and gaining focus and when using glfwTerminate()
<aelspire> on musl
<aelspire> generally it works but such crashes makes using it a little problematic
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<aelspire> what you guys think: rotating image belong to image viewer or not?
<sewn> absolutely
<sewn> rotate, flip, zoom should all belong in an image viewer
<midfavila> best if the image modification capabilities are in a standalone program and you provide generic keybinding within the image viewer itself
<aelspire> hmm
<midfavila> include a utility script bound by default that passes image data through a filter to rotate or otherwise modify the image and then replace the currently open image with that new image
<aelspire> I'm in the basic things should be included
<aelspire> camp
<midfavila> there's certainly a case for it to be included
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> but a basic set of standalone image processing programs could also be argued for
<midfavila> when i implement my own viewer, it's the approach i intend to take
<aelspire> I think around 10% of time I use image viewer on new images I need to rotate something and save it
<midfavila> why not just have a standalone program to rotate images then?
<aelspire> UX
<aelspire> I don't care if this is build in or just keybinding that calls imagemagic
<aelspire> but rotating is too often needed and it breaks unix philosophy
<midfavila> irot --deg 90 --dir cw file.jpg > file_rot.jpg could do
<aelspire> or clicking rl rr and than :w when you see image is rotated
<midfavila> sure but then you need the overhead of a GUI
<midfavila> ultimately it's your program, don't let me convince you otherwise
<aelspire> no no no
<aelspire> I'm not writing image viewer
<aelspire> It is for post on capsule
<midfavila> Aah.
<aelspire> yesterday talk made me want to write post where I voice my opinion about suckless and mainstream shortfallings
<midfavila> Well, I'll almost always argue for the separation of front and backend routines, so...
<midfavila> backend written in POSIX+ANSI C ensures maximum portability of the load-bearing parts of the program, and then the frontend can either not exist, or be written in whatever you want on a per-platform basis and distributed either alongside the engine or separately
<aelspire> and this is good example to ilustrate that there is no simple answer to question which features should be removed and which ones keep
<midfavila> i think it depends on the environment the program is intended to be run in
<midfavila> for example, on windows you would want to include these features because the text mode is uh
<midfavila> ...complete dogshit, might be the technical term?
<aelspire> but let's say it will use imagemagic
<aelspire> I think there is lib for imagemagic
<midfavila> yeap
<midfavila> you can also just... use it directly and then load the result
<aelspire> so rotation will be just one function call
<midfavila> meh(1) does that
<midfavila> actually, you might find meh(1) to be an interesting case study
<midfavila> it's also my preferred image viewer
<aelspire> vs. spawn shell and run user provided command here, oh and you need to write your config files
<midfavila> why would you need configs?
<aelspire> to specify this command in vim way
<aelspire> becouse one whould like to use something differend than imagemagic
<aelspire> because*
<midfavila> using my approach, you could easily recombine component programs and avoid that problem
<aelspire> I trying to constrast 2 different views here
<midfavila> especially if you used an intermediate format
<aelspire> so one view is just include imagemagic as dep and run rotation by default
<aelspire> via function call to API
<aelspire> and other view is allow user to pipe current file into user specified command, but it would require writting some config
<aelspire> and while first viewpoint is good enough for 99% of users
<midfavila> i think that that's an overly restrictive and false dichotomy
<aelspire> second one is more powerfull and allows power users to run more complicated things
<aelspire> so there is no answer other than: it depends
<midfavila> you could write simple integer image scaling and rotation subroutines and include those in a standalone program, removing dependencies and providing basic features at the cost of increased internal complexity, for example
<midfavila> but yes, the answer is definitely "it depends"
<aelspire> it will be another one post put on hold probably
<aelspire> more and more I think about it the more complicated it becomes and I'm not feeling competend enough to have something worth saying
<midfavila> if it's any consolation you're almost certainly more competent than I am, and I run my mouth plenty ;p
<midfavila> probably too much depending on who you ask
<aelspire> and I only wanted to show that simple rules in designing software will fail and only one which works is that designer need to thing for theyselves
<aelspire> think*
<midfavila> oh, well, absolutely
<midfavila> rules are just tools to aid in the decision-making process
<midfavila> rigid adherence to a specific dogma is what got software to where it is today
<midfavila> in some cases, the problem you're solving really *is* complex, and it needs a complex solution
<midfavila> but for most stuff, as long as the end user gets what they want out of it, i don't know if they'd much care about the internal structure of the software they're using
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> whether it's integrated or pulled together using a scripting language, they just want to rotate some images
* midfavila shrugs
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> and while somebody will be photographer and want to adjust gamma and other things the 99% of users will just notice that image is on the side bacause their camera doesn't have gyro
<midfavila> indeed
<aelspire> so you can desing software for 99% of users or 1% of power users
<aelspire> and it will require different solutions
<midfavila> but that's a different question than as to how the program is structured internally
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> you could easily satisfy most users with a basic set of tools pulled together using a scripting language with a slick GUI, and still have a clean, modular codebase underneath the polish that can be easily extended and modified by the enduser to satisfy more demanding usecases
<aelspire> but again there is two sides of equation: suckless way and fighting NIH syndrome
<aelspire> there are*
<midfavila> shit, it's been done with CAD, there's no way it can't be done for something like image viewing software
<aelspire> as programmer I'm in favour or using sane libraries instead of adding scripting language to config
<midfavila> be clear, i'm not in favor of the latter
<aelspire> modular software sometimes are cool (I'm using mblaze for mails)
<midfavila> i've never used mblaze, only heard of it
<aelspire> but sometimes are not (I given up on sfeed and I'm using Miniflux)
<midfavila> my usual example software tends to be nmh
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<midfavila> composition is one program that sets up an environment and opens an editor
<midfavila> sending is done by another that relies on the environment set up by comp
<midfavila> the whole suite is structued like that, and that makes it easy to implement GUIs like XMh or Nmh using those programs directly, as if they were "libraries"
<midfavila> i dunno i need breakfast
<aelspire> mblaze works the same way
<aelspire> oh and about yesterday talk about MISRA: I hope you are using at least -Wall -Wextra and -Werror
<midfavila> i usually do. that and splint
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> i still miss stupid stuff sometimes because i'm drainbead most of the time
<aelspire> stupid stuff are problematic
<midfavila> yeap
<midfavila> working on it
<aelspire> I'm no expert because I only skimmed some unofficial materials but big part of MISRA is managment staff workflow part, you are not going to use it
<aelspire> and coding style is very restrictive and most of the times it does the same thing which those flags are doing
<midfavila> fair enough
<aelspire> char array[10] = {'a', 'b', 'c', 'd', [3] = 'e'};
<aelspire> you know what printf("%s", array); will print?
<midfavila> i can guess, but I don't exactly see the use of subscripts in array initalizers, uh, ever
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> I think there is rule in MISRA to not use it
<midfavila> there's the obvious guess, and then there's a couple handwaves
<midfavila> i mean, for good reason, because that's fucking stupid
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> i guess i can see your point though
<aelspire> C has flaws and some stupid decisions too
<aelspire> I like to tell it to everybody thinkig it is the best language ever without any flaws
<aelspire> and somehow I public enemy in result
* midfavila shrugs
<aelspire> gcc -Wall -Wextra -Werror ./main.c: ./main.c:5:53: error: initialized field overwritten [-Werror=override-init]
<aelspire> -Wextra is your best frient
<aelspire> friend*
<midfavila> just tested the snippet you posted, initial guess was right. still, the use of obscure behavior like that is... suboptimal
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> did you know this "feature" before?
<midfavila> yes, i did
<aelspire> cool so you are better than 50% of programmers by rough estimate
<midfavila> but it's still able to throw me for a bit of a loop since it's a) weird and b) obscure
<aelspire> but placing such footguns in code is bad IMHO
<midfavila> were i to see such a statement in an actual program, it would signal either gross incompetence or malicious intent to me
<aelspire> and I'm seeing it a lot in C++ land
* midfavila shudders
<aelspire> lot of programmers want to be cool and flex their skill
<midfavila> i guess a lot of programmers are stupid, too, then
<midfavila> something something write code as cleverly as you can, it's impossible to debug by definition, something something
<aelspire> yup, I'm usually the guy who need to remove all that cleverness from the code later
<midfavila> since you clearly have experience, i have to ask...
<aelspire> 99% of time they are totally unnecessary and serves no purpose
<midfavila> do... do programmers... not like, read books about programming or engineering practice?
<midfavila> is that unusual?
<aelspire> I don't know
<aelspire> I do
<midfavila> these sorts of problems are discussed at length in a number of the books i have on the subejct
<midfavila> and they're not recent books either
<midfavila> they're 20, 30, 40, 50 years old
<aelspire> I do read various books on the topic
<midfavila> subject even, gosh, can't type today
<aelspire> algorithms didn't change much
<midfavila> well, yeah. in part because i imagine data structures haven't much, either
<midfavila> i keep hearing all these dweebs go on about "ropes" and shit, and it's like...
<midfavila> dude that's just a special case of a more fundamental data structure, shut up
<aelspire> I've not heard about ropes
<midfavila> there was a big post on hecker news that linked to some microsoft guy's blog talking about how they massively improved performance in VS Code or something by redesigning the internal representation of text buffers
<aelspire> this is binary tree
<aelspire> about trees
<aelspire> look into SQLite implementation
<aelspire> b-trees was used there
<aelspire> it is interesting to see what SQL's INDEX'es are etc
<midfavila> bleh, reminds me that i really ought to pick my CS textbook back up
<midfavila> i got maybe three or four chapters in and then i just put it down
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> there are boring details such as discussing if algorithm is O(log(N)) etc
<midfavila> if i had the requisite mathematics knowledge it would be a lot easier to study this stuff
<midfavila> and yeah i've heard plenty of that
<aelspire> but that is where bad programmer is differend from good programmer
<midfavila> i was reading the blog of this guy who implemented a bunch of formally-proven networking code, ran like two or three companies, whatever
<aelspire> not the prefered language, not the text editor
<midfavila> he said that a google interviewer told him he wasn't experienced enough to work for google because when they asked him which sort was the "best" he responded by saying that that depended on the environment and circumstances
<aelspire> it is knowledge and ability to choose what to use in real situation
<midfavila> to which the interviewer replied that quicksort is the best, because it has the best "O performance"
<midfavila> and yeah, I figured
<midfavila> it's really frustrating to me that some people i've encountered don't seem to have the ability to, i dunno, think about their situation?
<midfavila> i mean, shit, sometimes you need a selection sort. sometimes you need a quicksort. sometimes, a heap sort
<midfavila> they all have different properties, beyond their mathematical ones
<midfavila> while they exist as mathematical entities in an abstract sense, you also have to weight the costs and benefits of the implementation from an engineering standpoint
<midfavila> like, if you're proving a system, maybe a selection sort would be better because it's *extremely* simple
<midfavila> i know that linux uses heapsort internally, because it's not as hard on the stack or something to that effect
<aelspire> usually sort is less of the problem as it is in the stdlib
<aelspire> so you can use it
<midfavila> realtime systems would benefit from an online sort or gravity sort in hardware, and so on
<midfavila> and yeah, I know, sorting is just an easy example
<midfavila> i'm also admittedly ignorant about this stuff
<aelspire> about quicksort
<aelspire> some implementations are not stable
<aelspire> and this is con sometimes
<aelspire> stable like in retaining order
<aelspire> not like in not crashing
<midfavila> yeah, i figured
<midfavila> although i'll admit that while i'm aware of the concept of stability in sorting, i'm not particularly familiar with it
<midfavila> most things in life, I suppose
<aelspire> junior programmer positions doesn't require such knowledge I think
<midfavila> unfortunately from what i've heard they do expect you to be able to regurgitate solutions to graph theory problems
<aelspire> but you will need to know it one day
<aelspire> heh
<aelspire> so we want senior programmer for junior salary
<midfavila> i feel like i have all of the auxiliary knowledge and skills to do programming work, just... not, you know, the whole "in-depth knowledge of computer science" thing
<midfavila> i can do version control, build automation, debugging, (basic) testing, (basic) test automation, i'm familiar with a few different standards and languages, can work with compilers and different editors and all that stuff, but I can't, say, implement a red-black tree from scratch
<midfavila> then again, maybe i'm too caught up in preconceptions about what such a role requires
* midfavila shrugs?
<aelspire> be carefull
<aelspire> I'm not telling you have it
<aelspire> but be carefull
<midfavila> i'm all too aware of that
<midfavila> i worry about it regularly :v
<aelspire> I don't think I'm best programmer
<midfavila> i'm not sure if i'm a dunning or a kruger, so to speak
<aelspire> maybe I'm in good enough category
<aelspire> but still there is wide gap between my knowledge 6 years ago and now
<aelspire> and than I thought I was genius
<midfavila> geez, trust me, the last thing i think i am is a genius...
<aelspire> than*
<aelspire> then*
<midfavila> honestly, i don't think i'm anything special. i regularly question my own competence, given my lack of experience
* midfavila shrugs?
<aelspire> ok, being overconfident can hurt you
<midfavila> i very much have the opposite problem
<midfavila> i have like... less than zero points of confidence :v
<midfavila> no matter how I come off sometimes
<aelspire> I've read that you are being probed on some IT position
<aelspire> or remember something like this
<midfavila> yeah. i was scouted for a consulting position the other day
<aelspire> cool
<midfavila> yesterday i was matched with a company who's currently hiring programmers, as well
<midfavila> i've sent emails to both asking for more details about their processes and companies and stuff but i've yet to receive a response
<aelspire> how is job market in canada?
<midfavila> ...then again, one day isn't a lot of time
<midfavila> uhhhhhhhh, not great
<midfavila> in fact, at least where i am, it's positively non-existent
<aelspire> hmm
<aelspire> I've thought that Canada is good country to live in
<midfavila> depends on where you're at
<midfavila> out west is nice
<midfavila> my area is practically the slums
<midfavila> nobody can find work, everything is expensive, there's too many people and not enough housing, and so on
<midfavila> you can work full time and still be unable to pay for food and rent here
<aelspire> I'm totally incompetent in social problems and economy
<aelspire> but I never understood why too much people to work is problem
<midfavila> when people can't find work they can't get money, which means no food or housing
<aelspire> there is so much things that need to be done that extra hands to works are always needed
<midfavila> and yes, that's true, but HR has Exacting Requirements:tm:
<aelspire> and yet in some part of the world people cannot find stable job
<midfavila> so to get an entry level IT position here you can't *just* know how to build and troubleshoot PCs
<midfavila> you need to have a college (or sometimes university) qualification, as well as at least one certification and three to five years' experience
<midfavila> and that's just to interview
<aelspire> nobody ever asked me about university diploma to be honest
<aelspire> no wait
<aelspire> I lied
<aelspire> my boss asked me it after 4 years
<midfavila> where are you again?
<midfavila> russia?
<aelspire> nope
<midfavila> i know some people here are russian
<aelspire> poland
<midfavila> aah
<midfavila> well, either way, good luck getting away with that here
<aelspire> I don't understand?
<midfavila> only way you can get into a programming position without a degree it seems is to be one of those hotshot "why yes I did program an operating system at age five, how did you know?" types
<midfavila> at least here
<midfavila> ...or so it seems from my viewpoint. don't take what I say as authoritative
<aelspire> I've heard about such insane requirements like having 8 years of experience in language created 4 years ago
<aelspire> but here situation is normal
<midfavila> yeap i've seen that
<midfavila> i've seen a number of positions asking for like
<midfavila> ten years of programming experience in swift
<midfavila> i don't even think swift is ten years old yet
<aelspire> I think this is because HR department has template for job listing
<aelspire> and uses it without any thinking
<midfavila> oh, probably
<midfavila> actually, almost certainly
<midfavila> i've seen people list things like Git and Mercurial and Make under "required programming languages"
<midfavila> and similar blatant miscategorization
<drez> I wonder if there is any webdev position that requires "full mastery of the HTML5/CSS3 specifications"
<drez> you gotta go back and learn more stuff every week
<aelspire> he he h
* midfavila screams
<drez> annoying as hell
<aelspire> good luck
<midfavila> you just have me another five gray hairs
<midfavila> s/h/g/
<aelspire> midfavila: you have writen: "well, either way, good luck getting away with that here"
<aelspire> and I cannot understand this one
<aelspire> my English fails me
<midfavila> oh, my bad
<aelspire> dear native speaker, enlighten me what does it mean
<midfavila> i meant that you wouldn't be able to get a "professional" position without showing your qualifications up front, including academic degrees and whatnot
<aelspire> aaah
<midfavila> "getting away with it" is just another way to say "that wouldn't happen"
<aelspire> so getting away is idion
<aelspire> idiom*
<midfavila> turn of phrase, yeah
<aelspire> I've heard this one and probably used it too
<aelspire> but somehow I missed this
* midfavila shrugs
<aelspire> but I've Master's degree
<aelspire> from serious university
<aelspire> in electronics… not computer science
<midfavila> good enough here
<midfavila> they don't even care if it's a CS degree
<midfavila> has to be, usually, CS, mathematics, or some form of engineering
<aelspire> my boss was quite amused by it
<aelspire> the world gone insane
<midfavila> you fucking bet it has
<aelspire> In my country there is saying: "No job is disgrace"
<midfavila> there's a similar sentiment expressed in Canada and the US by the so-called Protestant work ethic
<aelspire> have you thought about some more mudane backup plan for job?
<midfavila> something something he who does not work, neither shall he eat
<midfavila> unfortunately a more mundane option wouldn't work
<midfavila> remember how I said you can work full time and still be unable to afford food and rent?
<midfavila> that was neither exaggeration nor hyperbole
<aelspire> no no, the undertone is different
<aelspire> of the saying
<aelspire> this is something more positive here
<midfavila> i guess. it just sounds like another way to say "a job is a job"
<midfavila> which is... totally untrue
<aelspire> housing prive skyrocketed here too
<midfavila> yeap
<aelspire> my home is worth 2x more than when I bought it
<midfavila> if you want a standard "family" home, it's about 600k in my city right now
<midfavila> so yeah, property has gone up about 100% here as well
<midfavila> in toronto you can make six figures and still struggle to afford a house
<aelspire> in UK too, I've heard
* midfavila shrugs
<aelspire> I would like to offer you some kind words but they will come supper artificial from me
<midfavila> eh, don't worry about it
<aelspire> I've home, no credit on me yet, I've wife and son
<aelspire> maybe I'm not super rich but I've my needs meet
<aelspire> so I hope you will one day find the same peace as me
<midfavila> well, i haven't got much of a choice
<midfavila> do or die time, kind of thing
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<aelspire> My brother's friend resigned from university
<aelspire> and he is working in cutting high trees
<aelspire> he climbs on tree and cut it piece by piece from the top
<aelspire> and he had ambition to becomme programer too
<aelspire> and now he is making more than us
<aelspire> so keep your eyes open I would say
<midfavila> i'm just not interested in that kind of work
<midfavila> physical labor doesn't appeal to me
<aelspire> mhm
<midfavila> besides, i want to program
<drez> codemonkey likes fritos
<aelspire> yeah, I like programming too
<midfavila> i know that if i just put a few months in i can learn what i need to to do the work
<drez> codemonkey likes tab and mountaindew
<midfavila> all i need is one chance
<drez> codemonkey a very simple man...
<aelspire> drawing triangles is the other need
<aelspire> one can live without fritos and mountain dew
<midfavila> mountain dew tastes like piss and depression
<midfavila> and lays are like salted cardboard
<aelspire> I used to like cola
<aelspire> but since I correctly brew my coffe and tea
<aelspire> I'm not into cola at all
<midfavila> i've never really liked soda
<midfavila> iced tea used to be a big thing
<midfavila> but now, it just makes me feel sick
<drez> I never liked soda either...
<aelspire> correctly brewed green tea with mango is the way of life
<drez> and I have never tried none of those 3 things I listed
<drez> I want to like mangos, but I haven't gotten used to the runny texture
<aelspire> mangos are not the best
<midfavila> i'm fond of matcha and monk fruit when they're available
<aelspire> but try tea with mango
<midfavila> mixed with a little bit of oat milk
<aelspire> the mango in tea
<midfavila> and mango isn't great on its own unless it's quite ripe, i agree
<midfavila> mango as an ingredient, however, is wonderful
<drez> I've sure never heard of that being done
<drez> will have to try it
<midfavila> god I need to clear out my /home
<midfavila> between ~ and ~/Desktop I have almost a hundred loose files
<aelspire> did you ever see desktop of non-tech?
<aelspire> hundred loose files is nothing
* midfavila screams
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<sad_plan> hi
<aelspire> sad_plan: hi
<drez> my eyes
<aelspire> I've seen a few of such desktops irl
<aelspire> because when you become programmer all your relatives starts to ask you to fix their printer or computer
<sad_plan> never tell relatives about your computer interest. else youre going to become your relatives it support. for free
<drez> $0.00
<aelspire> yup but thats the life
<aelspire> sometimes someone needs your help and thats it
<aelspire> you cannot put price on everything
<drez> yeh
<sad_plan> what I was refering to is mostly that people are unwilling to figure out stuff themselves, and instead *abuse* that you have knowledge about computers
<aelspire> I usually assume good intentions
<aelspire> until proven wrong
<sad_plan> sure. we could likely live by the 90/10 rule. 90% of people just wanna be fine, and be happy. the rest wants to do bad things, like steal your stuff, or wreak havoc
<aelspire> many people helped me in my life so I've dept to pay
<sad_plan> sure. helping people is a great deed. as long as its not abused
<aelspire> bad actors are rare I think, or hope so
<sad_plan> sure.
<sad_plan> by the 90/10 rule, they few and far between
<midfavila> uh, that's one in ten
<midfavila> you interact with a lot more than ten people in your day to day dealings, i imagine
<aelspire> but you usually selects your circles
<aelspire> isn't it?
<aelspire> is your friend is shit you will stop interacting with him
<sad_plan> midfavila: I dont really thing that I do. but I get your point
<sad_plan> yeah, one would assume you do that aelspire
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<midfavila> some dude is really trying to argue with me and make the case that people should just "become real programmers and learn C" so he can continue using muh clever tricks
<midfavila> and that C is somehow uniquely efficient and important
<midfavila> as if no language has ever or will ever fill its niche
<midfavila> which is laughably wrong lmao
<sad_plan> well, lets his ignorance bite him in the ass some time in the future, when he relizes how utterly wrong he is
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<midfavila> nononononononono
<midfavila> i can't let someone be *wrong* on the internet, sad_plan
<midfavila> anyway I already gave him like, a 15-20 paragraph long response
<midfavila> :v
<midfavila> (you know, maybe this is why I never end up doing any *actual* programming)
<midfavila> (crazy)
<sad_plan> obviously. someone cant go around being wrong on the internetz
<sad_plan> that might be the reason yeah.
<midfavila> he also opened his response to my initial post with a humblebrag about his custom C++ library that allows for arbitrary-length bitfields and then goes on to drop snide remarks about how the Boost developers are, quote, "too square-eyed" to accept his work
<sad_plan> aah, yeah theyre the problem, cant you see that? its not him at all, it must be those posky boost-devs
<sad_plan> s/posky/pesky/
<midfavila> posky
<midfavila> bossy+pesky
<midfavila> new word
<sad_plan> lol
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<phoebos> midfavila: fibre optics >> copper
<phoebos> as for "babying" them, you can superpose multiple signals and send them at the same time
<phoebos> with wires you have to keep them far apart enough to prevent interference and capacitance ruining your signal
<phoebos> also, the signal only propagates on the edge of a wire; all the metal in the centre is useless
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> fair enough
<midfavila> LMAO
<midfavila> racket ends up destroying python3 in terms of execution time on these benchmarks overall
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