ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
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<sewn> hi
<testuser[m]123> Hi
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<midfavila> aa guys i might have a job ;w;
<midfavila> and like, a not-shit one
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<drez> once again
<drez> =)
<midfavila> oh wait did i already mention it yesterday?
<midfavila> fuck
<midfavila> i have... zero recollection of the past 24 hours
<drez> well it might as well be groundhog day
<drez> you keep getting jobs!... (:
<midfavila> man i wish
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<sad_plan> hi
<drez> salute
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<aelspire> Hi
<aelspire> Anyone knows any good epub reader?
<aelspire> Added EPUB + outdated/archived/removed/etc gumbo-parser to libmupdf but effect is not satisfacting
<aelspire> s/effect/result/
<aelspire> I prefer zathura-pdf-poppler for PDFs
<sad_plan> just use mupdf for pdfs. less stuff needing building
<sad_plan> its pacakged as libmupdf in community for some reason
<aelspire> PDFs are not the problem
<aelspire> everything and its dog can open it
<aelspire> but EPUBs are problematic
<aelspire> is there any good EPUB reader?
<drez> aelspire, I use epubreader on a pale moon fork
<drez> works fantastically since epub2 is xhtml 1.something and epub3 html5
<aelspire> yeah
<aelspire> it makes sense
<aelspire> epub is basically HTML
<aelspire> zipped
<drez> I was thinking an utility to simply temporarily extract the epub to a browsable html, in the style of auto-generated texinfo html files
<aelspire> unzip + links?
<drez> like put navigation arrows at the top and bottom, and generate an index, stuff like that
<drez> cause a simple unzip is a bit too bare
<drez> although it is basically a oneliner
<drez> I did it one time
<aelspire> zathura + mupdf works terrible for EPUBs
<drez> yeah do not use mupdf to read EPUBs
<aelspire> and requires gumbo-parser
<aelspire> dead since 2015
<drez> I'd say use that only if you want to render them to print them out
<drez> but otherwise it takes forever to load the epub file
<drez> and overall does not work very well
<drez> but yes aelspire, if you have a modern web browser (uxp firefox and up), use epubreader
<aelspire> yes, that was my point
<aelspire> ok, drez thanks a lot
<aelspire> I'm checking it
<drez> no problem (:
<aelspire> I've a lot of ebooks I wanted to read on my KISS linux laptop
<aelspire> yeah, the EPUB works in firefox + epubreader the best
<aelspire> mupdf struggled with some of my files but firefox chews them like a monster
<midfavila> >not using the based minimalist PDF reader hovacui
<midfavila> literally stop using computers smdh my damn head
<sad_plan> never heard of it. you gotta a link?
<drez> hovacui is sweet but I feel like mupdf is snappier than poppler
<drez> plus I have an e-reader
<sad_plan> thanks
<midfavila> i hve an e-reader as well but i can't help but be... disappointed at the software
<midfavila> or, well, e-ink tablet
<midfavila> running... fuck, hang on
<midfavila> it's that really popular android software that everyone praises
<midfavila> has an inbuilt lua interpreter and terminal emulator and stuff too
<midfavila> koreader
<midfavila> pinenote is great, koreader is krap
<midfavila> consistently disappointed in it
<midfavila> slow, clunky, rendering isn't great, etc
<midfavila> anyway brb
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<midfavila> what do you guys think of the potential viability of only having a thin client, and outsourcing all of the heavy lifting to a remote system?
<midfavila> basically 1960s/1970s style computing but with modern hardware
<zenomat> adds a lot of complexity, I think. for single user systems I don't think that it is very usefull
<zenomat> otherwise interesting idea
<midfavila> i've talked about it in here before, but the idea of just having an itty bitty box with just enough grunt to run X and the usual programs I use is growing more appealing each time I think about it
<midfavila> it would also make it much easier to find hardware fully compatible with free software
<midfavila> or even, shock horror, fully libre hardware
<zenomat> curious, how would it help with that? you would still need all the usual hardware, just in a server closet somewhere
<midfavila> :smug:
<midfavila> i'm a member of SDF
<midfavila> their machines are, to my knowledge, running only free software
<midfavila> the machines obviously aren't fully free, themselves
<midfavila> but my thin client could easily be free - there are free GPU designs, free CPU designs, free motherboards, and so on
<zenomat> ah, that you mean
<midfavila> and since what I do is *really* basic as far as hardware demands, I could literally get away with using amiga-era hardware
<midfavila> the main appeal here is in being able to use cheap, free software-compatible hardware at home, and then either a) pack up and carry everything I need for computing with me, or b) abandon it at a moment's notice without actually losing anything of real value
<zenomat> but then you would need a constant connection, so no more offline work, except stuff that your thin client supports
<midfavila> ...which is everything I use, except my browser, which I only use for multimedia ;p
<midfavila> if I can run Linux and X, I'm set
<midfavila> as for constant networking, I can get away with dialup, which can be had for free in many places in NA, and there's also a public library and a variety of other free LANs I can use
<zenomat> do you really need outsourced hardware then? if 99% of stuff you want to do you could to without it
<midfavila> strictly speaking? no, I don't really need dozens of cores and gigs of memory
<midfavila> but it's a very nice thing to have
<midfavila> difference between five minutes and five days for a compile job
<midfavila> plus there's the redundancy aspect
<zenomat> forget which channel im in xD yeah for compiles it is really nice
<midfavila> if I resync my thin client with SDF every ~15 or so minutes, in the event that my machine is destroyed or things are otherwise unavailable, I don't really "lose" anything
<midfavila> whereas now if my setup is damaged, that's >4k in terms of real value down the drain
<midfavila> (to be clear I didn't pay that much)
<midfavila> (i'm very good at salvaging hardware and otherwise finding deals on it)
<zenomat> the backup thin is still something you could do without the specific concept of thin client and outsourced hardware. the "setup"-backup is something that is a good point
<midfavila> oh, for sure, and I do it to a limited degree already
<midfavila> i keep my important documents and stuff in a crypt'd folder on SDF
<midfavila> there's also the concern of energy usage, of noise, and so on
<zenomat> noise yes, but energy only if it is not your own hardware, which in your case it isn't, but for everyone who will run the hardware themselves it is just more energy consumption
<midfavila> not quite sure i understand your point. anyway, the energy required for a CPU to run slightly hotter is a lot less than for a single machine to run in its entirety
<midfavila> clock up the CPU and allocate a few megs of memory versus run an entire extra CPU, an entire extra motherboard, an entire set of RAM banks, a video card, a sound card, and so on
<midfavila> by reducing myself to a thin client i go from a few hundred watts to a few dozen
<midfavila> from an ideological standpoint, that too appeals to me
<zenomat> the outsourced hardware will still require the same amount of energy, as if run locally, plus the energy needed by the thin client, or am i missing something?
<midfavila> you're missing the fact that SDF will run whether I use it or not
<sad_plan> it would actually in total require more.
<sad_plan> thin client + the remote stuff. not just the local stuff
<midfavila> total energy being used is reduced because the machine I use to connect to SDF is downsized
<midfavila> and the only way you could argue that is if the energy required for transferring data was extraordinary
<zenomat> ah. like i said, in your case, because someone lese hosts the hardware, not a problem. for anyone running it on his own, more power required
<midfavila> well, yeah, but idc about people who want to run a server in their closet
<midfavila> 'cause that's not what i'm lookin' at
<midfavila> not to mention that for this use case self-hosting server hardware is just... like... what?
<midfavila> it's stupid unless you have a bunch of other stuff you're using the machine for
<midfavila> and even then you need to consider if the stuff you're running on the server makes sense
<midfavila> for example everyone who self-hosts email is doing it wrong, in my opinion
<zenomat> as someone who hosts his own mail, why?
<midfavila> assuming you're actually hosting it yourself and not in a VM on someone else's hardware, you lose the advantage of location redundancy
<zenomat> yeah ok, I am running it on a vps, but mostly because of the static ip
<midfavila> a huge part of security is availability, as well as integrity. if you, say, lose power, or there's a disaster, or you're even just undergoing maintenance on or around your dwelling, then there goes your email
<midfavila> and sure, it's *possible* that it'll get re-sent at a later date
<midfavila> but you can't bet on that
<midfavila> self-hosting things (which is, as far as I'm concerned, by definition on your own hardware on your own property) is silly if you only own one property
<zenomat> in most cases my mail is not mission critical, so i don't worry about that too much. if it were, i'd have backup mx anyway
<midfavila> now, if you had a commercial location (say, you rented an office) and you ran stuff there with proper redundancy, then we'd be talking a different game
<midfavila> or you rented rackspace in a farm somewhere, or whatever
<zenomat> and regarding selfhosting. i host my own blog, password manager, media library, matrix, whatever, all locally. because it is mostly for myself, I don't really care to much about uptime, and even then it is really good. anything important is still backed up offsite
<midfavila> but renting a machine ain't self-hosting, and running critical (or even moderately important) stuff in a networked environment... when you have a single network to work with... is just silly
<midfavila> oh, sure
<midfavila> see that's whatever
<midfavila> because it's, in your own words, not important
<midfavila> or at least implied by what you said
<midfavila> like sure, it's "important", but you aren't going to lose your house or job or friends or whatever if it's damaged
<midfavila> ...well, the password manager is questionable in multiple senses, including those,
<midfavila> but otherwise my point stands
<midfavila> (password managers are also a bad idea but at least you're self-hosting *that* instead of outsourcing it)
<zenomat> definitely, for anything mission critical redundancy is important. but that just comes down to not being lazy and having a proper strategy
<midfavila> being lazy is a fair excuse
<midfavila> actual security is a pain in the ass, by design
<midfavila> the thing that bothers me is that so many people who blow the horn of "privacy! security!! freedom!!!" either a) don't put any real thought into it or b) just go with the flow
<midfavila> like I have a buddy who simps insanely hard for crypto and signal and "self"-hosting and stuff
<midfavila> he's kind of a techbro, minus being a complete douche
<midfavila> and I always get annoyed when we talk shop because he's very much a move-fast-and-break-things person
<midfavila> and i'm the polar opposite
<zenomat> yeah, proper security and redundancy takes a lot of consideration
<midfavila> not even
<midfavila> it requires a logarithmic amount of effort
<midfavila> you can get pretty decent results with only a moderate one-time investment of time and energy
<midfavila> but if you want to go full FIPS-level, good luck
<midfavila> like, just don't use the web or social media and don't carry a cellphone around and you're *way* better than most people in regards to privacy and security risks
<midfavila> admittedly in the "don't use the web" thing i'm a bit of a hypocrite
<zenomat> oh, we are talking about THAT level of security. i though in respect to selfhosting. but yeah, there are some steps one can take, but at some point it's just like trying to climb a humongous wall. it's possible with a lot of skill and effort. it all depends on your thread model, i guess
<midfavila> muh threat model is also a stupid bullshit meme that i wish people would stop peddling
<midfavila> at least when it comes to private citizens who just want to be a little safer
<midfavila> like I said, if you're going full FIPS-level and need to avoid people who are *actively* out to get you, that's a totally different story and threat modelling is totally valid
<midfavila> same if you're managing an organization
<midfavila> but if you just want to minimize exposure, like, no, it's not about muh threat models, it's about not doing retarded shit
<zenomat> threat model is really relevant. if you just want a little more privacy and peace of minde you have a really different set of requirements, than when trying to protect against nation state actors
<midfavila> that's the other problem with the whole threat model discussion. it can't be invalidated
<zenomat> what do you mean by that?
<midfavila> you can just wave your hand and say "well it's just a different threat model", when it's the *absence* of a threat model and instead simply a good set of practices
<midfavila> there's a huge difference between "these are the entities I want to avoid and the tactics I want to mitigate the impact of, and this is precisely how I'm going to take steps to do that", and "I'd like to be able to sleep reasonably well at night without worrying about other companies being fucked and not taking responsibility."
<midfavila> the latter is a *part* of what constitutes the former, sure, but the part isn't the same as the whole in this case, in my opinion
<midfavila> maybe that's a #BadTake but i don't really care at this point what so-called "experts" think
<midfavila> modern security industry is a fucking sham
<zenomat> in my oppinion both of those are thread models, one more rigorous than the other, but none the less
<midfavila> that's what i'm saying - you can just say that everything is a threat model. but in the latter you're not really *modelling* anything in particular
<midfavila> you're taking generic measures, instead of specific, targetted ones
<midfavila> idk
<aelspire> selfhosting has its strengths
<midfavila> if you're actually self-hosting, yes
<aelspire> I've PC and laptop
<midfavila> or if you're using rental services for the superior networking environment, that's also fair
<midfavila> e.g running game servers
<aelspire> most ot the time I've thought that 2 computers are just cumbersome
<midfavila> if you don't need *proper* security, sure, outsource stuff
<aelspire> because you will get in situation where you need some file on your other computer
<midfavila> FTP?
<aelspire> so I've spinned syncthing
<aelspire> and now I'm syncing 320GB of data
<aelspire> basically whole home
<midfavila> any time I need to transfer stuff from my tablet to my laptop or desktop, or any other combo, I just tar it and FTP it
<aelspire> so much server space would cost me a lot
<midfavila> anyway, in that case, it's a little different
<midfavila> you're just syncing files
<drez> sshfs/nfs is sweet
<aelspire> but OrangePi PC with external 500GB USB drive manages to handle it
<zenomat> midfavila: but that's not really user friendly and sometimes just cumbersome
<midfavila> that's... not even a client-server thing
<midfavila> zenomat, that's bullshit
<midfavila> it takes five seconds
<aelspire> I'm forgetful person
<aelspire> actually I've thougth about rsync
<aelspire> but
<drez> rsync is useful too
<aelspire> I would forget to sync most of the time
<drez> it is ok not to have every single file on every single device
<midfavila> tar cf foo.tar /home/me/* ; ftp foo.tar me@other_device.lan:/home/me/
<zenomat> for my phone, i would have to call a tool to tar stuff up, then rsync it over to my pc, i would need to have ssh setup for this. just dropping stuff in a folder and it appears, is a lot simpler
<midfavila> done
<drez> and if you have more than one computer a more or less permanent LAN is handy
<drez> almost indispensable
<midfavila> zenomat, use a cron script
<zenomat> on my phone?
<aelspire> I've split my home into parts and not syncying everything with everything
<midfavila> uh, yes
<drez> zenomat, I think you can do that
<midfavila> i assume you have a unix environment on your mobiles
<aelspire> but syncthing supports my phone too
<aelspire> so I sync my books with my phone too
<zenomat> yeah, but who except a select minority can/has a unix environment on their phone
<drez> root it and put busybox on it
<midfavila> who gives a shit about tech illiterates? they don't even know what a unix is
<drez> or use termux
<zenomat> still a lot more cumbersome, than just pushing files
<midfavila> but... but it's not
<drez> that is pushing files however
<drez> just in a different manner
<midfavila> it's literally the same task
<drez> and I have personally accepted that doing anything on an android phone is more difficult
<midfavila> one just uses standard unix programs to accomplish the end goal versus throwing even more shit at a problem
<drez> because android sucks
<zenomat> no, one requires me to open a shell, tar, rsync, and type all of that on a phone, and the other is long press, copy, paste, done
<midfavila> DUDE
<aelspire> and I'm hosting git cgit Xandikos (caldav, carddav) and miniflux
<aelspire> on my server
<midfavila> fucking write it on your PC and SSH into the phone
<midfavila> what the hell
<midfavila> one-time investment of effort and you're done
<zenomat> DUDE, still fucking awkward
<drez> or check this out
<drez> ./
<midfavila> wh-
<drez> easy peasy
<midfavila> i'm not going to ask how using computers like this is awkward
<midfavila> it's the easiest thing
<aelspire> cron jobs with rsync is a little weird solution
<zenomat> using my phone to do this is awkward, and having to ssh into it, just to copy files is too. I mean I know how to do it, and I could easily automate it, sure, but still
<aelspire> inode watcher would be better
<midfavila> but you're not doing any of that
<aelspire> I think
<Ellowee[m]> Syncthing
<midfavila> you're writing a script to automatically tar up stuff (or send files in a directory) over ftp to another machine(s) and then telling your crond to run it
<midfavila> you could even use your phone's GUI file manager to get the job of dumping stuff into a directory done
<zenomat> at this point, it's almost the same as syncthing. the same amount of upfront effort
<midfavila> i mean, don't get me wrong, if you just want to use syncthing or whatever, all the power to you
<midfavila> personal preference is personal preference
<drez> phones are lame
<aelspire> Ideally I would like to replace syncthing with something more stable
<drez> you should not even handle any files on your phone
<midfavila> that i can agree with, drez
<drez> put as little files on it as possible
<aelspire> I'm periodically having problems and sync-conflicts with it
<drez> and keep everything on a real computer
<midfavila> if the copper lines weren't dead in my area i'd be using my rotary phone
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<aelspire> but it's much better then my previous solution - Nextcloud
<zenomat> aelspire: yeah, i noticed that to
<drez> i'd love to have a rotary phone at least as a backup
<midfavila> tfw my solution wouldn't have any problems like that
<zenomat> definitly better than nextcloud^^
<midfavila> drez, i have a rotary phone and dialup modem, and (used to) regularly use both
<zenomat> it would, as soon as you want to edit the file on two devices
<midfavila> run the cron script more regularly, or have another program that monitors changes and fires the script again on files when they're changed
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> easy change
<aelspire> monitoring changes in files with rsync should work
<aelspire> is there any cron like monitor for it?
<midfavila> i'm pretty sure there are a few different unix programs specifically for monitoring open files and stuff
<aelspire> list of directories to watch with list of scripts to run
<zenomat> as soon as one device is offline, you modify the file there and it doesn't get online before you edit on the other machine, you would have to fix sync conflicts or overwrite one version
<midfavila> imagine thinking that's a problem
<midfavila> just keep the most recent file
<zenomat> imagine trying to have robust solution to the problem
<aelspire> the problem is non-existent for me
<midfavila> and have the program move the old file to a temporary directory instead of delete it outright
<aelspire> I'm only using one computer at time
<midfavila> i mean, this isn't even a real problem lmao
<midfavila> it's purely a convenience
<aelspire> but syncthing still fail sometimes
<midfavila> (one that you wouldn't need if you just used a thin client)
<midfavila> :D
<drez> > drez, i have a rotary phone and dialup modem, and (used to) regularly use both | sweet !
<midfavila> yeah
<zenomat> true^^
<midfavila> i spent my teenage years bouncing between youth shelters, and they would regularly try to coerce me into doing what they wanted by restricting my broadband access
<midfavila> but they gave everyone in at least two of the shelters unlimited access to the phone lines, which were equipped with... unlimited long distance plans
<midfavila> cue dialup to access a shell on SDF
<midfavila> i think SDF has dialup-dialup in my city now, too
<drez> that is amazing
<zenomat> pretty metal
<drez> yes heaveh metal
<midfavila> that sort of niche use is why i get pretty furious when people say "ew dialup? obsolete!"
<drez> maybe i should just quit having all these computers and stuff and just have a notebook with linux installed on a usb stick
<midfavila> like, no... the modern world *still* relies on dialup in a lot of niche places, and it's a *very* useful fallback technology
<drez> *netbook
<midfavila> you could bootstrap dialup from almost nothing if you had to
<midfavila> i'm talking pulling copper out of the ground yourself levels of nothing
<midfavila> now, would it be fast? no. would it be super duper reliable? no. would it be cheap? no. but it would be *possible*
<midfavila> good luck doing that with optical cables
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<midfavila> and afaik television cabling requires way more material and labor than a telephone wire
<midfavila> for ad-hoc networking dialup and radio are king, and nobody can change my mind on that
<midfavila> hell, in some cases it's even more reliable than, say, optic cabling
<midfavila> i recall seeing somewhere that a lot of fire alarm systems still use ~120baud/300baud dialup, because they *work*
<midfavila> those telephone cables can be down, busted open and laying in a puddle and still get a signal through
<midfavila> meanwhile you need to handle optical cabling like it's a fuckn baby
<midfavila> you'd think i would use my site for blogposts instead of #kisslinux
<drez> and there is like 0 reason to change that
<drez> ever
<drez> i mean those systems
<drez> not the blogpost part
<drez> maybe that would be a good idea
<drez> it's up to you
<drez> it is more a conversation than a blogpost though
<midfavila> :p
<midfavila> i have a tendency to blogpost in here
<midfavila> always feel bad about it after the fact
<drez> I know how you feel
<drez> the only one feeling bad about it is you (:
<midfavila> small victory I suppose
<midfavila> but yeah, short of there being a *gargantuan* copper shortage and no resolution in sight, i can't see a reason to drop POTS lines
<drez> I cannot speak for everybody, but I like reading blogposts
<zenomat> it's interesting to read your takes, so^^
<drez> and you always have something novel or interesting to talk about
<zenomat> def
<midfavila> companies in my area are saying that it's too expensive, and like, maybe, but what's more expensive - replacing a 20km long optic cable because a squirrel chewed it, or replacing a foot of copper?
<midfavila> i legitimately want to know
<drez> well, them wanting to move everything to the internet I guess
<midfavila> because, to my knowledge, field repair of optical cabling isn't possible... well, I suppose you could cut the damaged part out and insert a coupler of sorts, but I don't think that would a) be super cheap or b) work well for a backbone cable
<drez> there are some isps offering SIP numbers (through some blackbox gateway) over their fiber lines
<midfavila> yeah, like Bell Canada >.>
<midfavila> fuck them
<drez> yes I had exactly them in mind
<drez> bell
<midfavila> they still charge like 50$ a month plus long distance fees
<drez> bell is the worst ever
<midfavila> the other-other-other thing about fibre being "more expensive" and not objectively superior to things like DSL or dialup is the cost to the end user
<midfavila> i can (theoretically) get a DSL line for ~10$ a month
<midfavila> will it be good? no
<midfavila> will it be an internet connection? yes
<midfavila> meanwhile, the *cheapest* plan Bell has here that isn't wholly unjustifiable is almost a hundred goddamn dollars
<midfavila> 100 bucks for 100mbit duplex
<zenomat> tf
<midfavila> yeah
<midfavila> that's *cheap* here, by the way
<drez> holy crap
<midfavila> rogers isn't much better, and they afaik only offer duplex links to businesses and high-paying customers
<zenomat> i get 2.5x that at 40% of the price
<midfavila> unsurprising
<midfavila> canada has some of the most expensive telecomms in the world
<midfavila> internet in particular
<drez> why would that be anyways?
<midfavila> because the federal government is run by a bunch of retards who know nothing about tech
<midfavila> they both over- and under-regulate the sector
<zenomat> yeah, but we have that in germany too xD
<midfavila> it's too much to allow competition, but not enough to prevent companies from abusing their nigh-monopoly
<midfavila> any time a new standalone ISP is created, they end up getting absorbed by the two big home ISPs pretty much immediately
<zenomat> but i guess that manifests itself in wanting to censor all of the net, so...
<midfavila> what remains is Bell, Rogers, and a bunch of resellers sucking on their teats
<midfavila> it's disgusting
<midfavila> i guess there's Starlink rolling out now, too, but...
<midfavila> >Starlink
<zenomat> what i really dislike about starlink is musk...
<midfavila> okay yeah nvm there are established ways of repairing optical cabling please ignore my remark regarding that
<aelspire> starlink…
<midfavila> (also it's late but thank you for saying that you enjoy hearing what i have to say ;w;)
<aelspire> looking how space karen cancelled tesla order for guy criticizing him
<aelspire> this might not be reliable internet connection
<midfavila> (sometimes it feels like i'm just screaming into a void and nobody hears)
<zenomat> it was really cool seeing the satellites fly over my house tho
<midfavila> same
<midfavila> but cool isn't decent
<midfavila> now, that being said, i think the infrastructure is awesome
<zenomat> yeah, having that kind of tech in the hands of THAT guy really sucks. in any centrally controlled hands, but i guess there is nothing you can do about that
<aelspire> midfavila: thought about some blog or sth?
<midfavila> i have one
<midfavila> i just... don't use it
<aelspire> I've seen
<aelspire> and ben's one too
<aelspire> and sewn one too? I think
<midfavila> it's mostly just me ree'ing about how much my life is shit lmao
<zenomat> same tho, i just not post at all, or make a thread on the fediverse
<aelspire> not much here, but I'm guilty too
<midfavila> nothing worth reading about yet
<aelspire> I'm writting newest post something like 3 weeks now
<sewn> aelspire: i dont write blogs
<aelspire> I've seen your site?
<sewn> i have nothing to say that others should be interested in
<aelspire> I think
<midfavila> at some point i want to do a post or three about different standards and how programmers can benefit from sticking to more mature technologies instead of going for constant Innovation:tm:
<sewn> my site has no blogs
<midfavila> there's a clip from an Ahoy video that sums up how I want my software to be seen pretty elegantly...
<midfavila> 9:20
<sewn> omg ahoy fan hi
<aelspire> sewn: It shows kernel panic now
<sewn> midfavila: meh i wouldnt say all software can be perfect
<aelspire> I think
<midfavila> full clip is 8:54
<aelspire> some joke?
<sewn> my site is at a different address
<zenomat> midfavila: good goals for software, but i am rather fond of my super hacky, dirty and convoluted wiki generation script
<sewn> zenomat: can is ee it
<midfavila> "So... welcome to the default option. ... It's true, there are better-looking weapons (programs) out there, and some more suited to specific roles. But there's a Glock (program) good enough for everyone. Besides, sometimes ugly is beautiful; and sometimes, boring is exactly what you need."
<midfavila> this part in particular is what really gets me
<midfavila> the whole bit about "perfection" doesn't matter
<midfavila> it's about getting the job done
<midfavila> simple. clean. to the point. about as elegant as a brick, and as reliable as one.
<midfavila> no features. no excess. just what you need to get done what needs doing.
<zenomat> sewn: sure^^ just implemented full text search
<sewn> thx
<zenomat> have to updated the readme, i think
<zenomat> midfavila: ay to that
<aelspire> zenomat: I'm using gemini for personal wiki
<sewn> zenomat: is there an example or site that uses tinywiki
<aelspire> mainly because it doesn't need converting to other formats
<midfavila> i really think that a lot of people have misinterpreted the idea of using the machine's time more than the programmer's in a way that severely undermines my ideals
<zenomat> one sec, can upload it to my server real quick
<aelspire> not because it's best solution
<midfavila> >not using a filesystem as a relational database for a personal wiki
<midfavila> for shame
<zenomat> it just generates a bunch of html files from markdown, with a bit of fluff, it it's that what you mean mid
<midfavila> at least you're not one of those dweebs who needs a... i don't even recall the term people have come up with for them
<midfavila> but they're like, cloud-based note-taking systems?
<midfavila> "second brain" or some tacky shit
<midfavila> it's such a stupid goddamn idea
<aelspire> I've reveipes of stuffs
<aelspire> receipes*
<midfavila> zero actual improvement on note-taking tech
<sewn> zenomat: i use my own like 20 line script to generate my site from markdown
<aelspire> and I want to be able to open it on phone
<aelspire> as taking PC to kitchen is not much fun
<midfavila> acquire additional computer
<midfavila> put computer in kitchen
<midfavila> kitchen computer
<midfavila> it's like kitchen gun but better
<midfavila> i wonder if the bbc would piss their pants and scream at me if i started watching their television over the net or something
<midfavila> legitimately so much better than north american crap
<sewn> oh my cat
<sewn> the design is very weird
<zenomat> ^^
<sewn> also its {0..100} not ${0..100} i believe
<sewn> zenomat: i would suggest making it more like a legitimate wiki
<sewn> without using <li>and such
<midfavila> wtf now i'm being scouted for programming positions
<midfavila> shit's crazy
<zenomat> sewn: i get what you mean, but it really is tailored to my taste^^
<sewn> if you want it to be read by other people then i think having it look generally readable is better
<midfavila> readable code is paramount
<midfavila> even above efficiency
<midfavila> it will be read thousands of times by dozens of different people, even if you never share it
<zenomat> it's mostly for me, so that I can dump stuff i needed once and find it again. it's not really tailored for other people
<drez> splitting into different files rather than headings/lists is better for this type of website
<zenomat> if it were for other people, yeah, that makes sense. and how the content is structured would have to be redone. at the moment i just dumped some stuff, without spereating it into proper topics
<zenomat> do you have your script somewhere, so i can take a look at it, sewn ?
<sewn> smu(1) does all the hard work
<sewn> imo markdown generation for a small personal site is pretty overkill, I've yet to put something meaningful on it
<zenomat> looks a lot nice than my abomination^^
<sewn> CSS is 16 lines
<aelspire> drawing triangles with OpenGL ES and Hare is fun
<midfavila> dude triangles
<aelspire> It starts from triangle
<midfavila> draw one with a sum of angles greater than 180 degrees, i dare you
<aelspire> on sphere, sure
<midfavila> fuck I didn't think you would know about that
<midfavila> oh well
<midfavila> i tried
<aelspire> I've used Vulkan in the past on C++
<aelspire> but now I've better understanding of what is happening
<aelspire> Learn OpenGL is great book
<zenomat> i've been meaning to try out hare, but never got around to it. how is it?
<aelspire> It depends what you want
<aelspire> really
<aelspire> there are abudance of programming langs and its hard to tell which one is "best"
<aelspire> but C++ and JavaScript sucks really hard
<zenomat> i'm not talking about "best", but does it feel nice to program in?
<aelspire> I've made mistake in my younger years and thougth that C++ is something like second "better" version of C
<aelspire> nice
<aelspire> It is C improved
<aelspire> only lang which deserve this title IMHO
<aelspire> but still incomplete
<aelspire> zig tries to be better C but tries too hard
<aelspire> package manager, build in whole clang to make zig compiler compile C and C++ too
<aelspire> I never understood last point
<aelspire> like, why?
<aelspire> but Hare is nice, but only if you are into small language which is small, simple and flexible
<testuser[m]> Lol no generics
<zenomat> sounds like a lang i'd like, at least for fun
<aelspire> I've thought that too
<aelspire> but generics basically generates functions for you
<midfavila> >small
<aelspire> there is no magic type erasure which makes machine code works
<midfavila> >flexible
<midfavila> scheme?
<aelspire> lisp is not for everybody
<midfavila> scheme!
<aelspire> so, like I said there is abudance of programming langs
<midfavila> like scheme
<midfavila> and clojure
<aelspire> finding your own is pretty fun journey but worth it IMHO
<aelspire> but there is no silver bullet
<aelspire> so knowing few of them helps
<midfavila> ...scheme...
<midfavila> ;w;
<aelspire> and try scheme too like midfavila says
<aelspire> I'm not into lisp but many people like it
<aelspire> as it makes metaprogramming something like low level operations
<zenomat> i tried to get into lisps once, but failed misserably, but i really have to try again
<aelspire> I've tried to use emacs
<midfavila> admittedly i don't like emacs
<zenomat> i used emacs for a while, but never really got into the lisp part, so basically missed the point completely
<midfavila> but that's mostly because elisp tries really hard to not be shit and fails miserably
<aelspire> so I did handmade glue in spirit of doom emacs without doom emacs
<aelspire> and didn't like lisp at all
<midfavila> i love having a GUI that can't update because there are packages being updated in the background
<midfavila> also, >no lexical scoping
<midfavila> extremely bad and lame
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> also also, >separate namespaces
<aelspire> and opening file takes few seconds
<midfavila> (foo) and foo shouldn't be two different things goddamnit
<aelspire> and when you use client-server some things need to be done differently
<aelspire> that was fonts?
<aelspire> or sth like this
<drez> >(foo) and foo shouldn't be two different things | ._.
<aelspire> zenomat: I would recommend to try zig, Hare and Rust
<midfavila> did I say something stupid? to my understanding elisp is a type two language
<aelspire> it is what I've done
<midfavila> functions and variables share the same namespace
<midfavila> er,
<midfavila> that's type one, fuck
* midfavila slaps self
<zenomat> i have the feeling mid will choke me through the monitor, but i love rust, i have to try hare and zig tho
<midfavila> they *don't* in type twos
<drez> no well mmm idk
<aelspire> rust is fine too
<midfavila> zenomat, you're allowed to disagree with me, but I won't take you seriously if you think rust is a legitimate solution to things
<drez> I have to try good old forth..
<drez> I guess gforth, in any case ..
<aelspire> but Rc<RefCell<Type>> and whole dance to update this
<midfavila> a shitty blacksmith won't make better horseshoes with a better hammer because at the end of the day he's still shit at his job
<aelspire> when you have one thread…
<zenomat> midfavila: rust isn't a silver bullet, totatly, and i agree it isn't a complete solution, but I jsut really like how it writes
<drez> you like that syntax ???
<aelspire> and in match you need to use ref and not & which does borrowing
<zenomat> it can be convoluted somethings, but mostly it is really nice. at least in my experience
<midfavila> shitty programmers, similarly, won't make better software because they have better tools. or, at least, the improvement won't be a) transferrable and b) of greater value equivalent to the difference between the value of the old and the new tools
<aelspire> some weird gotchas are in rust
<drez> O God, hasten to deliver me; O Lord, hasten to my help!
<midfavila> better craftsmanship can only ever be truly achieved through practice and a deeper understanding of the self and the work
<zenomat> i totally agree with that
<midfavila> for example
<midfavila> see the so-called senior developers who think that the C preprocessor is anything other than a disgusting abomination that needs to be killed with fire
<midfavila> (i'm sure those exist)
<zenomat> a person who doesn't know how to write clean code will suddenly do that by chaning to a different lang
<aelspire> midfavila: let people have fun
<midfavila> (if not I look silly)
<midfavila> aelspire: no
<midfavila> my greatest fear is of other people enjoying themselves >:C
<midfavila> i need to ruin everything
<drez> aelspire: I hear this but I think it is also badly-oriented
<midfavila> especially if that everything is going to be infesting my kernel
<drez> it may be fun but it is ugly and unsightly fun
<midfavila> i don't want my kernel to crash because someone got a char when they expected an int
<drez> like pigs rolling in mud
<midfavila> i don't know if rust does that and i don't care either fwiw
<zenomat> yeah, i agree, that i feel the inclusing in the kernel was a bit rash, esp. because the eco system isn't just there yet
<drez> wasn't C basically made to write UNIX?
<midfavila> yeap
<drez> right
<drez> so it is THE language to write linux
<drez> why are other languages being brought in after so long ?
<midfavila> and then people were like "hey this isn't pascal, basic, or assembler. nice."
<drez> c++ got rejected
<drez> but not rust
<drez> and rust is less portable than c++
<drez> go figure
<midfavila> dumbasses don't realize that none of that fucking matters if your code *can't compile for anything important*
<midfavila> like maybe i'm the one not seeing something important
<zenomat> i still think is isn't to bad to think about if there may be better ways to do things. after all c and linux is how old?
<midfavila> but i feel like rust not compiling for anything other than ARM and x86 stuff defeats most of the value it could have
<drez> there might be better ways
<drez> but I doubt making a mulatto OS is the answer
<midfavila> who gives a shit if your e-commerce shitware doesn't segfault? i'm more concerned about the z80 assembler controlling my local power generator
<zenomat> midfavila: yeah, thats what i meant by the ecosystem not being there
<drez> mongreux
<drez> mongrilux
<drez> and if there is anything to be said about OS design evolution
<drez> it would probably be found in finally making a non-monolithic kernel
<midfavila> >helenOS
<midfavila> >beos
<midfavila> i think there's plenty to be said about it
<midfavila> >House
<midfavila> >plan 9
<drez> in other words
<drez> abandoning linux
<midfavila> yes, which is never going to happen
<midfavila> we're stuck with unix
<midfavila> haiku is promising now that their hardware support is growing
<drez> this is not a nice way to try and improve the #1 unix-like in the world
<midfavila> adoption rate doesn't equate to quality
<drez> exactly
<aelspire> helios
<aelspire> in Hare
<drez> yeah helios
<midfavila> linus himself has said that he's at the point where he dreads waking up and not being able to understand linux any more because of its sheer scale
<aelspire> drez: what is badly-oriented>
<aelspire> ?
<midfavila> shit
<midfavila> but in a more polite phrasing
<drez> like I think it is a misunderstanding
<aelspire> mhm
<drez> there is nothing wrong in criticizing drug addicts
<drez> they may think they are 'having fun' but you probably do not
<aelspire> well I in the end didn't choose rust so my feelings are not hurt
<aelspire> but there is another factor to consider - developer productivity
<aelspire> in ideal world all programmers are great and knows their craft
<aelspire> but I can prove that this is bullshit simply by opening github and checking random projec
<aelspire> but yes, everybody should know what their are doing
<aelspire> but we do not live in ideal world
<drez> it does not seem like people working on linux don't know what they're doing
<aelspire> choose - Rust or JavaScript in Electron
<aelspire> this is the choice we have…
<aelspire> rust in linux is a mistake
<drez> this is like pretending chinese knockoffs are the only products that exist
<aelspire> that case closed
<drez> come on now o_O
<testuser[m]> aelspire: how is saving dev time a mistake
<midfavila> you'd save more developer time if you stopped trying to be clever
<midfavila> and didn't reinvent the wheel every year
<aelspire> mixing 2 different lang in such project is high barrier
<aelspire> now every linux maintainer will need to know rust
<aelspire> and what is gained?
<drez> twice the mental power now
<midfavila> simple algorithms, simple data structures, no premature optimization, self-explanatory code.
<drez> as said in the sabotage linux blog
<midfavila> if your problem is "too complex" for that to work, you're doing it wrong.
<midfavila> short of things like, I dunno, numerical analysis or other legitimately complicated tasks.
<drez> >Just make it too hard to build stuff from source and FOSS will exist only in name.
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> but if that approach is good enough for the patriarchs of unix i don't see why it doesn't work for joe blow
<drez> and likewise, just make it too hard to understand a codebase and FOSS will exist only in name
<aelspire> when code is obfuscated by default what is the point of OSS?
<midfavila> tl;dr put down the algorithms textbook and pick up the engineering philosophy textbook
<aelspire> but next thing is
<midfavila> aelspire: no think only compile
<aelspire> OSS is made mainly for fun in free time
<drez> >only compile
<drez> and barely
<drez> only in preapproved platforms
<aelspire> if someone passion is making games in brainfuck
<aelspire> go with it
<aelspire> have fun
<drez> eat the bugs yadayadayada
<midfavila> speaking of languages if i get this latest job then i'll probably need to learn go
<aelspire> so I'm not telling the rust is bad in every case
<aelspire> like gamedev
<midfavila> but rust is bad in gamedev
<aelspire> this is not mission critical software
<drez> rust is pretty stinky in gamedev
<drez> any language I have trouble building is bad
<midfavila> rust should be *used* for mission critical software if memory safety is as big of a deal as people claim
<aelspire> it is fine to cut corners and write it without understanding all layers
<drez> so go is bad
<drez> rust is bad
<drez> python is bad
<drez> etc
<midfavila> but, like one infamous gentoo user once said, "I'm sure all the people who can't use encryption any more really appreciate Rust's memory safety"
<aelspire> python is fine for which it was made
<midfavila> but it's not
<drez> python is just ok
<midfavila> it's just a shittier version of C
<drez> but i think it keeps getting worse
<midfavila> it's a perfect example of what I think is a symptom of people misunderstanding the idea of conserving programmer time in favor of machine time
<drez> i wish nothing more than python 2.x existed
<midfavila> mfw python 4 is soon
<drez> no way :(
<midfavila> mfw i need to have three pythons
<aelspire> I wish it had better thought types
<aelspire> but python is fine
<midfavila> and four gtks
<midfavila> and three qts
<drez> ikr
<midfavila> and two c++ compilers
<drez> i only have one gtk still
<midfavila> and one pill to manage the fucking stress this shit causes me
<drez> more like 3
<midfavila> earlier i had my blood pressure measured at a pharmacy and i'm edging into the high category
<midfavila> and i legitimately think that this shit contributes
<drez> oof
<drez> lennart poettering is going to give you a heart attacj
<aelspire> midfavila: chill
<drez> you should sue him
<midfavila> i'm barely 21 and i have greying hair from stress about this
<drez> D:
<midfavila> (and other things but this too)
<aelspire> why python is making you so stressed?
<midfavila> it's what python represents on an abstract level
<drez> b l o a t
<aelspire> show on the doll where python touched you
<midfavila> the idea of just throwing more technology at a problem to solve it T R I G G E R S me
<drez> overengineering
<aelspire> I once needed to render TTF font into C array
<aelspire> to display it on STM32F7
<midfavila> the only people who should be allowed to use computers are those who are intrinsically motivated, or *very* qualified
<aelspire> I did this in python and pillow
<midfavila> otherwise you get hordes of mumbling redditors lerning 2 kewd
<aelspire> for some problems batteries included is good solution
<midfavila> and then *they* end up writing the shitware that people end up depending on
<drez> so the only people allowed to use computers are ones capable of designing every computer they use?
<drez> like imagine if that was a prerequisite
<drez> you must design the computer
<midfavila> it was once :D
<drez> or you don't get to use one
<zenomat> but should that really be the goal?
<aelspire> mid is going too deep into this rabbit hole
<midfavila> back when men were men and every computer user knew how to wirewrap their front panel things were BETTER
<midfavila> now you've got these kids with their ARMs and Linuxes
<midfavila> but in all seriousness, no, in the current world I don't think that's a reasonable prereq
<midfavila> but honestly, in a sane world? i wouldn't be opposed to that
<drez> The Current World[TM]
<midfavila> like, you look at, say, the Ceres workstation? that was designed by a team of students and a couple of professors
<midfavila> no reason a person couldn't understand that in its entirety
<midfavila> or, something like the altair, or even older PDPs and stuff
<midfavila> i think it was in the 90s when hardware started getting insane
<aelspire> current GPUs are fun
<midfavila> but you look at what we use computers for, nothing has really changed in that regard save for multimedia stuff
<aelspire> games, CGI
<midfavila> sure, a lot of people depend on the web and in-browser programs, but what are those programs?
<midfavila> text editors
<midfavila> spreadsheets
<midfavila> image editors
<midfavila> these are things we've had for decades
<midfavila> sometimes half a century or longer
<midfavila> why do we need a computer so complex no human could understand it when we're doing the same things we have for decades?
<midfavila> why does society accept this?
<midfavila> what are we racing towards, other than the finish line?
<aelspire> well I agree that tech gone out ot the hand
<midfavila> most importantly, how schizophrenic am I getting?
<aelspire> but we are not doing the same thing
<aelspire> look at CGI
<midfavila> gonna start hearing lennart whisper into my ear at night i swear
<aelspire> look at modern games
<aelspire> this was impossible with '90 HW
<zenomat> lol
<midfavila> aelspire: literally not true but okay
<midfavila> anyway i already said that multimedia is the big exception when it comes to stuff that's been done
<aelspire> things gone awry
<midfavila> you used to need a big workstation to do realtime 3d rendering that wasn't ass
<midfavila> like an SGI or something
<midfavila> but I'm *certain* that even those machines were simpler than even the simplest PC of the past few years
<midfavila> idk maybe i'm stupid
<drez> Well they had these huge cards
<aelspire> I would like to see the change where computers will fell as fast as it should
<drez> But the software design was most definitely not as complex
<midfavila> aelspire: not going to happen on the current course
<aelspire> my first PC (I had C64 before) was 486
<aelspire> and I swear that worked faster than GNOME on my i7
<midfavila> i have a 48-thread workstation and any time i use stuff in a browser it feels like i have a two-thread pentium
<drez> > most importantly, how schizophrenic am I getting? | as far as I can tell, you have no angry voices telling you bad stuff
<midfavila> drez, yet
<aelspire> midfavila:
<aelspire> suckless
<drez> hey don't say that :(
<midfavila> RMS is one of my headmates and he's been talking about visiting redmond some time
<aelspire> It's happening
<midfavila> :^))))))))))
<aelspire> but change is slow
<drez> O_O
<midfavila> suckless is wrong and retarded
<midfavila> and i'll say it to their fucking faces
<aelspire> yeah, they took it too far
<midfavila> they suck rob pike's cock all day and yet their programs are a) impossible to read, b) their docs are shit, and c) they're hypocrites
<aelspire> but look at handmade network
<midfavila> no, they didn't, they missed the point completely
<drez> I wonder what would have happened to 3d graphics if shaders were never invented
<midfavila> suckless and people like them are just as bad as js soydes
<midfavila> soydevs*
<aelspire> but it ilustrates other point
<drez> *realtime 3d graphics
<midfavila> doesn't resolve for me
<aelspire> I wanted to show you that more and more programmers see how wrong current stack is
<midfavila> they see that it's a mess but then they don't see the solution
<midfavila> i hope this group is different
<drez> im sure the site's contents are good
<drez> however, soy website
<aelspire> geez
<drez> + discord icon
<midfavila> the only group i've seen thus far that's seen what i see is collapseos
<aelspire> chill people
<drez> + twitter icon
<midfavila> at least they have forums
<drez> at the very least...
<midfavila> but their use of twitter and dicksword doesn't inspire confidence
<aelspire> you want too much
<drez> why aspire for less
<midfavila> >we think modern software is a mess! come join us on our proprietary networks that rely on the same technology we proclaim is a problem!
<aelspire> twitter was fine until it gone insane
<midfavila> aelspire: asking people to not be fucking idiots isn't a lot
<drez> it doesn't take a genius to know what's soyware
<aelspire> I've used nitter and it worked
<midfavila> i'm at the point where i don't care if i come off as pretentious or ignorant or whatever
<drez> this is just laziness, guy
<aelspire> some migrations need time
<drez> like how much?
<midfavila> we don't *have* time!
<drez> two more weeks[TM]?
<drez> 5 years?
<midfavila> we haven't had time *ever*!
<drez> there is never time
<drez> there is always an excuse
<midfavila> who has *ever* implemented a temporary fix with a comment to fix it later, and then it *never* gets fixed?
<midfavila> no, we have to get shit right the first time, even if it means it takes longer to implement
<drez> whoever wants to actually do whatever they think they want to do, will do it
<midfavila> measure twice, measure once more for good measure, and then strike and strike *once*
<drez> in other words, why don't they just do it if they think they want to?
<midfavila> none of this push to prod patch it later fuckery
<drez> unless they don't really want to
<drez> in which case, they are soy
<midfavila> fuck this i'm going back to the 70s
<aelspire> too much black-white thinking
<drez> no I know what you will say
<aelspire> there are shades of grey too
<drez> that this is extreme
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<midfavila> fuck off
<drez> what is the point ?
<drez> in using all that painful stuff?
<drez> isn't the forum about rejecting all the cringe anyways?
<aelspire> that's the group of people that are trying to change something
<drez> why fail in such basic cringe tests?
<drez> they could simply ONLY have the forum
<drez> like lots of sites for the last few decades
<aelspire> 100cr
<midfavila> judging people based on surface level cringe is the cringiest thing you could do drez
<drez> what do you mean?
<midfavila> search deep inside yourself
<midfavila> you know it to be true
<drez> oh I know
<aelspire> I see the change and I'm optimistic
<midfavila> call me when we can bootstrap computing
<zenomat> the 100r people are really cool
<aelspire> maybe it will not become mainstream
<drez> but that stuff is too much trouble for nothing
<midfavila> until then i'm sticking to 16-bit bitsliced workstations
<aelspire> but small software doesn't need much manpower
<drez> the valuable people using those disgusting programs are normal enough to use something better
<aelspire> so we will survive despite of not being mainstream
<midfavila> 100r seemed cool last time i peeked
<aelspire> they are cool
<midfavila> i need to sort my bookmarks
<aelspire> so mid tone down your stress
<aelspire> we are getting there
* zenomat cries in 100 open tabs
<midfavila> christ, i tell you guys what, when i write my own browser it's either not going to do bookmarks or it's going to use the fortune format
<aelspire> software will be small and sane again
<midfavila> i fucking hope so
<midfavila> my heart can't handle this
<zenomat> except niche software i don't think we will get there
<aelspire> but why we want to be mainstream?
<midfavila> i will *literally* become a neoluddite to get away from this shit if I have to
<midfavila> also that
<midfavila> something something tragedy of the commons
<aelspire> as long as we are in self sufficient state
<aelspire> things will roll on
<midfavila> any solution to the problem that comes along will inevitably end up becoming just as shit
<midfavila> jwz expresses a similar sentiment with the whole "a program that does not read mail will expand until it does, or it will be replaced by one that reads mail"
<zenomat> yeah, as long as we manage to stay in our vacuum this works. but as soon as you get into contact with anything enterprise or mainstream it falls apart
<aelspire> thats the scope problem
<midfavila> we should like
<midfavila> create a micronation
<midfavila> and one of the laws is that we only use plan 9
<aelspire> what?
<aelspire> why?
<drez> too new
<midfavila> because it's the closest thing available to a sane OS
<drez> the micronation will only have a single mainframe
<aelspire> plan 9?
<aelspire> I wouldn't say so
<midfavila> drez unironically based
<aelspire> I prefer my system to be designed for offline-first
<midfavila> computing should be treated as a utility like electricity or telephony
<zenomat> let's declare independence!
<drez> that sounds so appealing its like a drug just thinking about it
<midfavila> all citizens get issued a libre-licensed pizza box-style desktop computer running plan 9 on their eighteenth birthday
* midfavila nods
<aelspire> and I wanted to write about sneakernet
<zenomat> what was sneakernet again?
<midfavila> networking via humans
<aelspire> you put files on sonething
<midfavila> aka some dude carries a usb stick down the hall to you
<aelspire> and go to somebody
<aelspire> and gives him it
<zenomat> ah true. it's such a cool concept
<drez> shareware in a nutshell
<midfavila> >physically interacting with other people and the world is cool
<midfavila> laughed
<drez> lol ikr
<drez> I mean it's pretty obvious right there
<aelspire> but one mainframe for nation and sneaker net doesn't match
<midfavila> i know that's not what was meant but it's still funny
<drez> it does not they are of different alignments
<midfavila> aelspire: who said the mainframe was the only computing resource?
<aelspire> i prefer offline first desing
<aelspire> I'm not productive untill I block all fun sites on firewall level
<midfavila> oh the mainframe also blocks all soysites
<midfavila> no reddit or twitter or youtube or any of that shit
<drez> so like maybe have a main tape library for the whole micronation
<midfavila> honestly should just block port 80
<drez> it would not use the internet unless connected to bittorrent or something
<drez> or no internet at all
<aelspire> I download all doc to use offline usually
<midfavila> nah you need internet access
<aelspire> and have laptop for fun where fun is not blocked
<drez> what's the point anyways, you got all the good people in your micronation
<drez> and the tape library has just about all you need to know
<aelspire> but blocking 80 port when I need to use outlook web app for work…
<drez> just a way of doing it
<midfavila> aelspire: such proprietary shitware will also be illegal
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> you can work in the micronation
<aelspire> or it should let me access my mails from unofficial client at last
<aelspire> even google let me use fdm
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<drez> so only email will be allowed
<drez> and html attachments are blocked by the mailserver
<drez> html does not exist there
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> burn html mails with fire
<aelspire> sorry for source
<aelspire> I've found about this attack somewhere else
<drez> renders fine without javascript
<aelspire> but cannot find it and fount that one instead
<aelspire> basically it renders fake browser window
<aelspire> faking OAUTH
<aelspire> fun
<aelspire> HTML + JS in mails enabled real shitshow
<drez> LOL
<midfavila> mfw
<drez> wait so browsers are so bloated that they are capable of rendering fake windows
<drez> and people are falling for that
<zenomat> the modern web was a mistake...
<drez> and it is basically impossible to prevent this method
<drez> without destroying css
<drez> and javascript
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> giving people freedom was a mistake
<aelspire> this is fun too
<aelspire> fake pdf which is exe
<aelspire> and have extension pdf
<aelspire> and pdf icon
<aelspire> I would get tricked into it
<midfavila> >tfw this only works because the OS cares about the file extension
<aelspire> and what about non-tech?
<aelspire> and why file manager run exe by default?
<aelspire> only launcher should be able to run exe file
<aelspire> or cmd
<midfavila> actually, isn't windows defender supposed to catch stuff like this?
<aelspire> what is the point of this "feature"?
<aelspire> it bails when file is bigg
<aelspire> and that file was padded with 0
<midfavila> you'd think the OS since it cares about extensions and stuff would see "hey this file has more than one extension..." or "hey this extension and this arrangement of bytes doesn't quite make sense...
<midfavila> "
<zenomat> if you try a little bit, you can circumvent windows defender
<aelspire> to over 700MB
<aelspire> so when they zipped it it was not so big
<aelspire> modern computing is such user hostile that it scares me
<midfavila> nonononono
<midfavila> it's friendly
<midfavila> stop being such a backwards-thinking luddite and get with the times
<aelspire> have fun checking every single file in hex viewer
<midfavila> FRIENDLY
<aelspire> to check if it is not exe
<aelspire> or check every window
<aelspire> if it is real window
<aelspire> before putting pass here
<midfavila> i get so angry about this shit
<midfavila> maybe i should start making religious rights claims to avoid using windows and stuff
<midfavila> "my religious restricts me to IRC, e-mail and operating systems that are open source and under 100k lines of code."
<midfavila> religious beliefs*
<midfavila> ...well, that still wouldn't work grammatically, but whatever
<aelspire> putting things aside
<aelspire> why file manager in winblows runs exe by default?
<aelspire> thats terrible desing TBH
<midfavila> user friendliness probably
<aelspire> where?
<midfavila> given they want to hand-hold people you'd think they would ask before running anything
<aelspire> to quickly run malvere?
<midfavila> yes
<aelspire> I'm thinking really hard about it
<midfavila> no think
<midfavila> only parse CSV
<aelspire> and still found 0 sane reason why somebody want to run app by finding its file in file manager
<aelspire> midfavila: what was the latest OpenGL or OpenGL ES version supported on your machine?
<aelspire> have you any way to check it?
<midfavila> glxgears says 4.6 compat
<aelspire> cool
<aelspire> thanks
<midfavila> why do you ask?
<midfavila> am I getting artisanal malware?
<drez> mine says gl 1.2... hmmm...
<drez> is it true gl 1.x allows for many less optimization possibilities than modern gl ?
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> sadly
<aelspire> GL 1 is fixed pipeline
<aelspire> so all shading is lambert and no real shaders
<aelspire> drez: prod year of HW?
<aelspire> I've made few tutorials using Godot and gamedev looks fun
<aelspire> but feel like lacking understanding things on deeper level
<aelspire> so I'm trying to render some model using OpenGL ES 3.2 + Hare
<aelspire> and test if I can make something more complicated like BRDF + reflection probes and maybe VXGI
<aelspire> but trying to find good compromise which OpenGL version should I target
<aelspire> oldest one doesn't do
<midfavila> most people probably have cards equivalent to 2014-2016 era hardware
<aelspire> some fun rendering stuff need 3.3 at last
<midfavila> so whatever the lowest common denominator of that era is would be my bet
<aelspire> and OpenGL ES 3.2 what I personally think works the best for me
<aelspire> ES 3.2 is from 2015
<aelspire> should work with range 2014-2016
<midfavila> probably took a year or two to implement save for the highest-end cards
<midfavila> i'd go for a little older if you wanted to be *really* safe
<aelspire> 3.2 requires the same HW as 2.0
<aelspire> I think
<aelspire> only API changed
<midfavila> oh, then nvm, fuck me i guess
<midfavila> i've never looked into 3D graphics programming and it doesn't interest me much in general
<aelspire> but I'm still on hello triangle so don't quote me
<midfavila> although i've considered a graphical MUD client using a rendering technique similar to DOOM's
<aelspire> I love 3D art
<aelspire> and joining 3D art with my other hobby - programming is something like holy grail for me
<midfavila> combination of asset packs for specific areas/games, generic assets for autodetection, and a fallback set, render each in a main window as you move through each area
<midfavila> could even have enemy sprites, attack and item animations, etc
<midfavila> i anticipate a layout sort of like the OG dragon quests
<aelspire> I want to know and understand how my 3D model becomes image
<aelspire> I more or less understand raytracing
<midfavila> apparently, lots and lots of trigonometry
<aelspire> but resterization in GPU is still mystery
<aelspire> but I'm getting there
<aelspire> now I know something
<aelspire> previously I "did" Vulkan tutorial
<midfavila> that reminds me, i ought to spend an hour or two studying mathematics today...
<aelspire> but didn't understood what I've done
<aelspire> just brute forced through tutorial
<midfavila> i mean, whatever works
<midfavila> pretty sure it was dmr who said "when in doubt, use brute force"
<aelspire> so it rendered tringle but I haven't become smarter in process
<midfavila> no that was ken thompson
<aelspire> now I'm reading book, reading reference manual doing all dirty stuff in Hare
<aelspire> and I feel I'm starting to understand this
<aelspire> midfavila: DOOM rendering was interesting
<aelspire> but I personally feel that GPU is better fit for drawing stuff
<aelspire> I've implemented software renderer and done one using OpenGL (drawed only rounded rectangle) in Rust and zig previously
<aelspire> and software renderers are slow
<aelspire> while GPU renders pixels in instant
<midfavila> mmmeh
<aelspire> and other thing
<aelspire> CPU is free to do other job
<aelspire> so one thread is enought
<aelspire> and this simplifies things like a lot
<midfavila> when i get around to it i'll probably start with software rendering and then add a generic oGL renderer
<aelspire> cool stuff when comes to effect
<aelspire> but better do not look into implementation
<aelspire> go to deviantart page
<aelspire> I've found wikipedia about OpenGL ES and it have info which HW support which version
<aelspire> Intel HD Graphics Skylake and Nvidia GeForce 400 series level HW supports 3.2
<midfavila> honestly I say "like doom" but it'll probably just be a braindead implementation of something similar to a painter's algorithm
<aelspire> sounds good for me
<aelspire> well its important to have fun which projects you feel passion
<midfavila> idk if there's a 3D analogue for the painter's algorithm but for a fallback i'd rather use something simple
<midfavila> oh boy is it ever
<aelspire> I remember games from this era foundly
<midfavila> unfortunately the only thing i feel when i sit in front of my computer these days is dread
<midfavila> even my personal projects are mostly fuelled by sheer autistic rage
<midfavila> it really sucks ._.
<aelspire> was there than stopped caring
<midfavila> i'm... slowly improving in that regard
<aelspire> suckless it too much of rabbit hole
<midfavila> i just want to be reasonably competent
<aelspire> it killed my motivation years ago
<aelspire> now I'm in good enought faction
<midfavila> perhaps ironically, that desire ends up leaving me rethinking things dozens or hundreds of times instead of actually implementing anything
<midfavila> i have design plans right now for maybe five or six different programs
<midfavila> and not a single line of code for any of them
<aelspire> thats normal
<midfavila> makes me feel a little better then, i guess
<aelspire> I've never finished anything in hobby projects
<aelspire> but thats cool
<midfavila> thing is, i don't want to have these be "just" hobby projects
<aelspire> I'm doing it to have fun not to actually make something
<midfavila> i completely and fully intend to daily drive these programs
<midfavila> like, once XIrc is done, Pidgin is getting removed from my repos
<midfavila> once I have my own editor, emacs is getting cut
<aelspire> I wanted to write my own pinentry at some point
<midfavila> once apport is stable, axel is out too
<aelspire> becouse gtk sucks
<aelspire> but come on
<midfavila> a toolkit is on the list of projects that I want to get to Soon:tm:
<aelspire> enabled pinentry-gnome3 on override of default package
<midfavila> ...honestly, it'll probably just be a reimplementation of athena
<aelspire> and this desire is gone
<aelspire> gtk and qt sucks
<midfavila> become one of us
<midfavila> use xaw
<aelspire> EFL is in constant rewrite state
<midfavila> embrace xt
<aelspire> no need
<midfavila> d o
<midfavila> i t
<aelspire> I embraced wayland
<midfavila> gay
<aelspire> why
<midfavila> doesn't support non-linux unix in a meaningful way
<midfavila> and no, one compositor on fbsd is not a meaningful way
<midfavila> it's token representation
<aelspire> you get mouse input, keyboard input and framebuffer for drawing
<midfavila> don't care
<midfavila> call me when it runs on more than one OS
<midfavila> MGR could do it in like 20k lines of C or less
<aelspire> my toy programs I'm making for fun doesn't need to work on plan 9
* midfavila shrugs
<aelspire> displaying label and button that prints button clicked in console
<midfavila> my personal take is that i don't take projects that don't take total stack complexity into account seriously
<aelspire> isn't something I expect to see in OpenBSD repo one day…
<midfavila> not that X is great... but linux is a hell of a lot more complicated than amiga or oBSD or what have you
<aelspire> mesa is not required part of wayland
<aelspire> there is framebuffer wayland compositor
<midfavila> a while ago someone said that i shouldn't be such a tryhard about hobby projects, because "it's not like anyone will use them", but i've gotten plenty of use out of other people's mere "hobby projects", so...
<midfavila> and sure, but it doesn't run on not-Linux, so I don't care
<aelspire> from my point of view I want to open window, get keyboard and mouse input and have some framebuffer for drawing
<midfavila> i don't intend to use linux long term
<aelspire> and wayland and X does it
<midfavila> the *attosecond* HyperBSD is a thing and it supports some amount of hardware, I'm gone
<midfavila> porting kiss and my repos and fucking off
<aelspire> well if it is what is fun for you
<aelspire> I want blender to do some modelling, like low level programming and building something like renderer now
<midfavila> it's less a matter of "fun" and more "I feel an unquenchable rage and moral outrage that drives me to lash out against perceived technical failings the only way I can"
<aelspire> and want my PC not to be extremly bloated
<midfavila> i'm like RMS but lamer
<aelspire> but I accept good enougth
<aelspire> chill
<aelspire> seriously
<midfavila> wish i could
<aelspire> this rabbit hole leads you to considering dropping computer and buing abbaccus
<aelspire> and than thinking if abbaccus need frame or you can just line pebbles on the ground
<aelspire> everything will suck more or less
<aelspire> and have features you don't need
<aelspire> because somebody else need them
<midfavila> solution:
<midfavila> design system that's flexible enough to accommodate most cases
<midfavila> example:
<midfavila> editor with engine backend program designed to be driven by an arbitrary frontend program
<aelspire> emacs, kakoune
<midfavila> editor can be written in strictly POSIX ANSI C, frontend in any language and with any toolkit desired
<midfavila> the problem with emacs is that it comes with everything by default
<midfavila> it's the slackware of editors
<midfavila> i want something like sam, but even more generic
<aelspire> so everything sucks more or less
<aelspire> I would like to remove go and rust from my KISS linux installation
<aelspire> but some guys like them so here we are
<midfavila> i want the same editor to be able to be driven by ten interfaces at once, all with different looks and feels, without needing to change a single line of code
<midfavila> and yes, everything does suck
<midfavila> at least everything that's required for a so-called modern computer
<aelspire> but it doesn't hurt me personally
<midfavila> unfortunately such things hurt me personally, so I'm taking measures to correct them where I can
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> difference in worldview
<aelspire> I have been there
<aelspire> and it is not fun
<aelspire> and this is what I dislike in suckless the most
<aelspire> I prefer to have fun and have happy life
<aelspire> and suckless foundation is negativity
<aelspire> yeah rust sucks
<aelspire> but if somebody managed to write program I like in it
<aelspire> does programming language matters if program works well and is fast?
<aelspire> I prefer to look at final result and not dirty details
<aelspire> bacause I've opinions and everywhere I'll find something I disagree with
<midfavila> suckless is also suckware tho
<midfavila> it doesn't even suck less
<midfavila> it just sucks differently
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> pushing whole job into terrible library
<drez> > and than thinking if abbaccus need frame or you can just line pebbles on the ground | except the abbaccus is a masterpiece
<aelspire> implementing unusable frontend on top of it
<drez> wayland and rust, however, are not
<zenomat> aelspire: depending from which angle. as a user: no. as a maintainer/coder: yes
<aelspire> and telling it sucks less is well…
<drez> it is all about beauty
<aelspire> dissapointing
<drez> » program works well and is fast? | not my experience with any soyware
<drez> a house with bad foundations is not a house I want to live in
<midfavila> indeed
<midfavila> it seems like most software falls into either the "works well" or "is fast" category
<aelspire> ripgrep works well
<midfavila> but not both
<drez> except when it's a masterpiece
<aelspire> fzf is cool
<drez> and also, some ideas may be cool, but implemented poorly
<aelspire> I've so called soyware on my PC and I'm living with it
<drez> I feel like the comparison with the abbaccus is a leap in logic
<aelspire> no it is not
<drez> yeah I bet I could "live" with GNOME4 as well
<drez> i could 'live' on ubuntu
<aelspire> it is where the rabbit hole of removing every unnecessary feature leads
<drez> but that is not the performance and beauty I demand
<aelspire> final stage
<midfavila> friendly reminder that leaps in logic and leaps in reasoning are different things and that good logic can be bad reasoning and vice versa
* midfavila pushes up glasses smugly, anime-style
<drez> okay I'll
<drez> living in a pod eating the bugs will have you alive and all
<drez> "all you need"
<midfavila> the criticism is valid logically but it's not the best reasoning considering i've said repeatedly that some things are desirable from my point of view
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> unironically give me an altair, but with like
<midfavila> a slightly more capable CPU and more memory
<midfavila> maybe a 68k era chip
<aelspire> put the need first
<aelspire> I want to download some anime from torrents
<aelspire> I'm gonna install some torrent app and call it the day
<drez> I do that too
<drez> I haven't used kiss in like 2 years
<midfavila> TRAITOR
<drez> I used it right when gtk3 had been added
<aelspire> looking if this app sucks or not is counter-productive
<drez> but no wayland
<aelspire> I've packed transmission-gtk 4.02
<aelspire> it sucks?
<drez> sure it does
<aelspire> absolutely
<midfavila> i use btpd
<drez> that's the worst torrent client there is
<midfavila> it's not terrible
<aelspire> but I used this app since forever and don't care if it sucks
<drez> I'm on devuan and I still manage to avoid gtk3&4
<midfavila> the lack of magnets is unfortunate, and the maintainers do some overly-clever things in implementation
<midfavila> but it's reasonably small and flexible
<aelspire> maybe one day I'll find time to check btpd
<midfavila> i showed it to a friend of mine with a bach in CS and a few years of C experience and he had a hard time wrapping his head around what was going on
<aelspire> but I'll not go and write my own torrent app because all of them sucks
<drez> I regularly use qt5 programs, it's not the best but it's not the torture that nu-gnome is
<drez> so I use qbittorrent
<midfavila> something about a stack *on* the stack or something
<drez> it is also very slow
<midfavila> it's been a while since we've talked
<aelspire> I'll find one good enough and stay with it
<drez> but it looks prettt
<drez> y
<aelspire> I recently removed thunderbird and I'm proud of it
<drez> I am so lazy that I just ssh into sdf to check my mail
<midfavila> unfortunately i'm too paranoid to pay meta dues
<aelspire> but breaking all my workflows everythere will make me lose all motivation to use computer
<midfavila> at some point i need to put together like 360$ and send it in
<aelspire> so I'm keeping trasmission for now
<drez> rip
<aelspire> there are more important things for me to come with replacement
<drez> I use mail without meta though
<midfavila> you can't use smtp without meta
<drez> arpa gets you permanent mail
<midfavila> i have arpa
<drez> really ? no smtp?
<drez> dude weak
<drez> wait no way
<midfavila> yes, it needs tls, which is restricted to meta
<drez> I already responded to someone's mail
<drez> and not on sdf
<midfavila> if it was recent you might have gotten lucky
<midfavila> membership is in the middle of a system upgrade
<midfavila> on a few machines
<midfavila> and configs aren't quite ported yet
<drez> I know I think it finished now
<drez> for my machine
<drez> thats so weak
<midfavila> i don't think it's unfair
<midfavila> SDF isn't a small operation
<drez> I guess so
<drez> but if can do it...
<midfavila> is probably a lot smaller than SDF
<midfavila> in both scale and userbase
<drez> That's likely
<midfavila> i mean
<drez> I actually wonder though
<midfavila> keep in mind that SDF is the single largest install base of nBSD in the world
<drez> what does it cost them to offer smtp tls to everybody?
<drez> isn't that basically just a toggle?
<midfavila> drez, bandwidth and stuff i imagine
<aelspire> worse
<drez> does all the cryptography really take up so many resources?
<aelspire> IP can get banned for spamming
<drez> or is it like "muh spam"?
<midfavila> plus you- yeah
<drez> every single mail I sent on cockli has landed
<midfavila> i was going to say, giving people free or low-cost emails with no real strings attached is a great way to get spam
<drez> weak
<aelspire> and unbanning it is impossible uphill battle
<midfavila> drez, that's because has restricted signup for years afaik
<drez> not very long
<aelspire> if you are paying this is some kind of barriers what keep spammers away
<midfavila> that and nobody wants to send email from a "cock" address
<drez> I signed up 4 years ago
<drez> and I also do not use the cock domain
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> either way, i don't mind supporting SDF
<drez> I guess I basically got arpa for nothing
<drez> I can't even do mail
<midfavila> and if they get charitable organization status then donations will be tax deductible
<midfavila> so you basically wouldn't be paying at that point
<drez> my index files can't be called index.htm
<aelspire> midfavila: can you enlighten me why NetBSD and not OpenBSD?
<drez> got cockblocked when I asked them to bring it back
<midfavila> aelspire, *shrug*
<aelspire> I've thought about getting into some tilde
<aelspire> but than decided that this is again me wanting to get into some kind of social media and never post anything
<aelspire> I've made mastodon account twice
<aelspire> and deleted it twice
<aelspire> tilde will end in the same way
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<aelspire> but I've thought about OS for my server
<aelspire> it uses alpine currently
<aelspire> and I've heard a lot good things about OpenBSD
<aelspire> but it need something akin to "data mode" in alpine
<aelspire> so OS loads to RAM via mounting things over initramfs
<aelspire> and only /var is mounted as real disk
<aelspire> rest is tmpfs
<aelspire> as my server is OrangePi PC with SD card…
<midfavila> puppy linux as a server
* midfavila nods sagely
<aelspire> nah
<aelspire> changing linux for linux is change for the sake of the change
<aelspire> alpine works so if I'm going to change it I would change it or for KISS so I'll have the same OS on 2 computers
<aelspire> or to OpenBSD as it is something different
<midfavila> oh
<midfavila> unrelated
<midfavila> but i've wanted to ask for a while and i keep forgetting
<midfavila> does anyone here know of a MISRA C style checker?
<zenomat> never heard of it
<midfavila> it's a dialect of/style guide for C that's primarily used in high reliability, high security environments
<midfavila> it does things like restrict how control flow can be handled and what sort of functions can be used
<aelspire> I've heard about MISRA
<midfavila> if I *can*, I want to write programs that comply as closely as possible with established, well-tested guidelines
<aelspire> but this is "industrial" open standard
<zenomat> ah ok, interesting
<midfavila> just because it's industrial doesn't mean it's automatically shit
<aelspire> so it is open for everybody willing to pay $$$$$$$ for access to it
<midfavila> ...oh, that's what you meant
<midfavila> fair enough . -.
<aelspire> tools probably are available but it will cost something like 1 mil $
<zenomat> oh, "open"...
<aelspire> for seat
<midfavila> i just figured that misra might have some good ideas
<midfavila> just little things that eliminate classes of potential errors
<midfavila> like, you know, putting constants on the left-hand side of equivalency checks
<midfavila> >eclipse
<midfavila> i hate to be a goalpost mover but i was hoping for something more like lint
<midfavila> this looks potentially promising-
<midfavila> oh
<midfavila> lmao
<midfavila> jinx
<midfavila> i figure if written code passes (most of) SPLint and CPPCheck it ought to be pretty decent
<aelspire> but those are not official misra
<midfavila> it doesn't have to be official
<aelspire> you will not get any cert for using it
<midfavila> that's fie
<midfavila> fine*
<midfavila> it's not about certifications, it's about trying to be more rigorous
<midfavila> maybe it's futile or naive
<aelspire> pass on misra
<aelspire> it's not worth anything
<midfavila> are there similar in spirit specs that are better?
<aelspire> write some test, get coverage raport with gcovr, run valgrind
<aelspire> and use perf to check where app is spending time
<aelspire> simple solutions are non existent
<aelspire> sadly
<aelspire> nobody find anything which will prevent bugs other than thinking, well designed code and testing
<aelspire> MISRA and Rust is marketing slogan
<midfavila> i think the intent behind misra is at least better than that behind rust
<aelspire> "follow those simple rules, pay us monies and your software will be better"
<midfavila> it places the ownance of responsibility onto the programmer and not the environment, recognizing correctly that it's a people-problem and not a technology-problem that demands a people-fix, not a technology-fix
<midfavila> to be clear i'm not saying i intended blind compliance or figured it would magically make things faster and more secure
<midfavila> i just figured they might have some useful style tips
<aelspire> well
<aelspire> find bug: if (i + 1 > INT_MAX) overflow = true;
<midfavila> har har, very funny
<aelspire> such things are in production code usually
<aelspire> and MISRA is basically about such things
<midfavila> well, fair enough, then
<midfavila> production code also seems to think that use of the preprocessor is vali
<midfavila> valid*
<midfavila> even pike and bwk basically say that using the preprocessor is a symptom of bad design
<aelspire> but don't take my word for much worth
<midfavila> in pike's rules of C programming and in their book "The Practice of Programming", pike lambasts conditional compilation and the use of macros, respectively
<aelspire> I only skimmed MISRA unofficial spec
<midfavila> to quote TPoP, "... the argument for use of macros instead of functions is the performance cost of a function call ... This was, even originally, a flimsy excuse."
<midfavila> i think that was around page 28
<aelspire> macros are worst thing in C
<aelspire> even C++ managed to do it better
<midfavila> pike also shits all over #define
<midfavila> and says you should just use enumerations
<aelspire> in C++ there is constexpr
<aelspire> which is #define but with type
<midfavila> reading that made me feel really validated because i reached the same conclusion early on in TCPL
<midfavila> ;w;
<aelspire> C have its flaws
<aelspire> but except of Hare every lang trying to fix C failed
<aelspire> because C is simple
<midfavila> huhbuh
<midfavila> muh alef
<aelspire> and if we fix C and adds this one small feature…
<zenomat> imma head to bed, night guys
* zenomat waves
<midfavila> see you
<aelspire> bye
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<aelspire> I'll need head to bed soon too
<aelspire> zig is close too
<aelspire> but it agains tries to: manage packages, compile C++, compile C, translate C headers into zig… etc
<aelspire> and simplicity is gone
<aelspire> while I'm understand why language package managers exists
<aelspire> I think this might not be a solution
<aelspire> but I'm guilty of using pip when I'm lazy
<aelspire> generally such tool is cool to have
<aelspire> but add non-moderated central repo without proper namespaces for orgs and running some script during install/build whithout ability for user to disable it
<aelspire> makes it sucks
<aelspire> something like suicide linux
<aelspire> do one typo in your deps and your whole machine is compromised
<aelspire> and your git repos now contains malware too
<midfavila> as god intended
<aelspire> ok, bye
* midfavila waves
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