ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
<midfavila> the package manager would, but the packages might not
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<Gremlin8483> midfavila thats what i figured, still very awesome, basically like switching architectures
<Gremlin8483> btw i got it up and running, what a great system, for the first time ever i feel like i have complete control
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<sad_plan> hi
<Gremlin8483> yo whats up
<sad_plan> not much. rebuilding webkit with a patch from alpine. aswell being annoyed by webkit 2.40.1 errors out on some gettext stuff
<sad_plan> and you?
<Gremlin8483> im laerning the kiss system right now
<Gremlin8483> last night i set it up for the first time, today finally got everything working
<Gremlin8483> love it so far!
<sad_plan> nice. kiss is awesome. I fell in love instantly the moment I discovered it myself
<Gremlin8483> webkit must be a complicated mess, how bad is it?
<Gremlin8483> this has got to be the best kept secret in linux
<Gremlin8483> i love posix shell so naturally its a fit
<sad_plan> well.. browsers are less ideal in any case. seieing as how the web has developed, webkit browsers is usually not on par with i.e. firefox..
<sad_plan> sure, it is rather niche though
<Gremlin8483> yea im not too familiar with it is it like what android uses natively to render web content
<sad_plan> youre refering to webview right? I belive thats an interiely differnt thing. webkit2gtk is just the engine
<Gremlin8483> yes, i got the terms confused
<Gremlin8483> is there something about web kit browser that makes it attractive? like more freedom or easier to customize
<sad_plan> sure. surf is easily modifieable in any case. its simpler software in any case
<sad_plan> I also find it easier to build than firefox and its dependencies
<Gremlin8483> i mean i wouldnt ever be able to understand ffox or chrome source code
<Gremlin8483> as much as i love firefox
<sad_plan> Im mostly using sbase/ubase stuff, so building firefox can be cumbersome
<Gremlin8483> its basically the linux kernel at this point to me
<Gremlin8483> interesting
<sad_plan> in terms of codebase, sure. theyre absoletly massive
<Gremlin8483> i plan doing librewolf and w3m once i have other priorities sorted
<Gremlin8483> but i might look into webkit
<Gremlin8483> if you dont mind me asking a question, have you tried to do full disk encryption with LUKS with kiss? i know it requires more work and a initramfs version
<Gremlin8483> curious if anyone else here has insights
<sad_plan> why use w3m if youre already going to use librewolf?
<sad_plan> no, not on kiss. Ive used it on fedora and artix, but never kiss
<sad_plan> illiliti has tinyramfs iirc, you can use that
<Gremlin8483> firefox and chrome sometimes have memory leaks and i like to open hundred tabs sometimes
<Gremlin8483> yea thats the one i saw
<Gremlin8483> i guess ill just have to figure it out as i go, no biggie
<sad_plan> I would just use firefox unless theres a fundamental reason not to, or the rest of your setup would stand in the way. its just an overall better experience with the web. however, webkit is mostly easier to get up and running, aswell as more hackable browsers, if youre into that
<sad_plan> you will. 1 step at a time.
<Gremlin8483> i love trying new stuff hehe
<sad_plan> I broke my system more than I can count probably
<sad_plan> sure
<sad_plan> new stuff is cool
<Gremlin8483> same here, i have 8 machines with linux, one of them has 9 linux partitions
<Gremlin8483> what made you decide to use kiss?
<sad_plan> why 9?
<Gremlin8483> distro hopping like mad
<sad_plan> its really simple, and minimalistic, which was something that appealed to me really
<Gremlin8483> agreed, in the end i was trying to decide between this, gentoo, and guix
<sad_plan> it was also my first source based distro. I was eager to learn, so hopping from artix to kiss was a big leap initially. wasnt that knowledgeable about linux either, so it proved to be a challenge for me
<Gremlin8483> in the end i could actually understand the package management
<Gremlin8483> yea i had artix installed to
<sad_plan> with kiss, you can anyway. its ~2k loc
<Gremlin8483> well i didnt even understand that most of a distro is the package manager
<Gremlin8483> everything else is just a logo and a brand
<sad_plan> it is. most distros dont really do much things different. appart from package manager, maybe init/service manager. appart from that, not much
<sad_plan> so yeah, mostly just logo and brand as you said
<sad_plan> its actually a bit ridiculous if you ask me
<Gremlin8483> but you get locked into the packages and philosophy
<Gremlin8483> just because they know how to manage packages
<Gremlin8483> and we "dont"
<Gremlin8483> now i seen the light
<sad_plan> packaging stuff isnt rocket science, and once you peak at the buildscripts for pacman, or and so on, you start to notice a trend. theyre mostly the same
<Gremlin8483> good to hear, i actually did not stay on arch that much
<Gremlin8483> how long did you use linux for?
<sad_plan> if you look at a buildscript from kiss, and then look at the same for i.e. arch, or alpine, even gentoo. you start to see some similarities
<sad_plan> uh.. its 5 years now I belive?
<Gremlin8483> the shell scripts are super easy to understand, i uunderstand most of them except the ones from busybox and one other important one
<Gremlin8483> most of the simplier stuff like vim was very barebones and just a few compile flags
<Gremlin8483> once there are more logic i tend to have a bit trouble
<Gremlin8483> 5 yrs is longer than me
<sad_plan> busybox isnt that awefull. its just renaming the busybox bin, and then rebuild it, aswell as symlinking everything afterwards really
<Gremlin8483> ah ok
<sad_plan> wait untill you see rust stuff. theyre rather awefull imo
<Gremlin8483> rust is really cool, i learned it a few months
<sad_plan> how long have you been using linux for?
<Gremlin8483> almost 2 years or so, but i used pcs almost 30 yrs, mostly windows
<Gremlin8483> cant believe i used windows that long honestly
<Gremlin8483> it was "ok" for a while
<sad_plan> let me guess, you know programming already?
<sad_plan> windows is terrible though, but its what most people use
<Gremlin8483> a little bit, i didnt really start learning programming until linux
<Gremlin8483> maybe a bit of python before that
<sad_plan> used it most of my life too, through school and everything. most people dont really know of the alternatives, except maybe apples bs
<sad_plan> I see
<Gremlin8483> yea even my dad who was a programmer for decades, great at unix, just uses windows for personal computing
<sad_plan> probably find it less cumbersome to use on a day to day basis. I dunno, I dont get it tbh.
<sad_plan> I still belive using a regular distro is less combersome than using windows, unless you use specialized software
<Gremlin8483> difference in living philosophy, usually its people who like to tackle a bit of hassle, versus people who want to avoid any hassle at all costs
<Gremlin8483> but maybe thats too broad a brush, some ppl simply werent shown the light
<Gremlin8483> windows probably one of the greatest propaganda campagins in history
<Gremlin8483> plus photoshop and office, the two biggest vendor locking handcuffs
<testuser[m]> Hi
<Gremlin8483> whatsup
<Gremlin8483> has anyone tried to set up/maintain multiple versions of the same package? for example if i wanted two different versions of vim with different build flags to coexist on the same system
<sad_plan> yeah, something like that. people are prone to be affected by comercials, aswell as w/e comes with w/e they just bought.
<sad_plan> theres no issue in that. kiss has an alternative system, so aslong as you have them named differently, you can
<Gremlin8483> now they are forced to watch youtube ads
<Gremlin8483> especially if they dont know how to use adblockers on tv
<sad_plan> they are, but not me
<sad_plan> adblockers arent really effective on youtube anyway
<sad_plan> gotta use invidous, or newpipe etc
<sad_plan> or just download the damn video with yt-dlp
<Gremlin8483> also i think garuda linux
<Gremlin8483> oh so i just have to name the package differntly, the binaries that the build generates can be teh same
<Gremlin8483> thats huge
<Gremlin8483> trying it out right now
<sad_plan> yep. because kiss has the alternative system, you can easily swap between packages. i.e. if youre having issues with gcc 13, you can just create a new package called than, and promptly revert to gcc 12 if you need to. swap inbetween them on the get go. easy as pie
<Gremlin8483> thats incredible, on debian you would have to manually install an estranged version in some other obscure folder, and call it by the direct path to the binary, otherwise you would have name conflicts
<sad_plan> yeah, thats not an issue on kiss at all
<sad_plan> you can still do it like that, but you dont have to atleast. imo thats amazing
<Gremlin8483> yea its incredible
<Gremlin8483> i just did it, and it detected the conflicts no problem
<Gremlin8483> its not clear how to swap to the alternative, typing kiss a package_2 gave an error
<Gremlin8483> im reading the kiss shell script right now
<sad_plan> kiss a path alternative
<sad_plan> i.e. kiss a /usr/bin/cp sbase
<Gremlin8483> oh its a path??
<sad_plan> yep
<Gremlin8483> dang i was way off
<Gremlin8483> lol
<Gremlin8483> the kiss script is really well documented
<Gremlin8483> still taking me a bit to read the logic
<sad_plan> it is
<sad_plan> you can also just use grep to switch everything for said package aswell
<sad_plan> kiss a | grep ^sbase | kiss a -
<sad_plan> switches every alternative available to that one
<Gremlin8483> thanks for the tip, im having a blast reading the kiss script tho, damn its written well
<sad_plan> yw
<Gremlin8483> how goes the webkit stuff?
<sad_plan> im still looking, I found a few hits that wasnt already included, not sure if those are it, but we'll see once we get all of them, or those ive found anyway
<Gremlin8483> gotta collect all the clues to unlock the final boss i see
<sad_plan> something like that. im just grepping the source for any gettext references basically. I have no clue if they work though :p
<Gremlin8483> fingers crossed!
<sad_plan> yeah, thats wasnt it, but I found something else. just gotta.. decypher it. lol
<Gremlin8483> need to get a couple of interns for the dirty work
<Gremlin8483> are you using ripgrep or the regular one
<sad_plan> sbase grep, so regular grep
<sad_plan> isnt ripgrep written in rust?
<Gremlin8483> yea its multi threaded and might save a bit of time
<sad_plan> yeah, perhaps when grepping massive stuff, but for me I dont really belive I save much of anything. seeing as rust takes ages to build
<sad_plan> it doesnt add up to build rust for just this one thing :p
<Gremlin8483> hehe why not spend hours builidng a 50kb file
<sad_plan> exacly :p
<sad_plan> I do however know gnu grep is rather fast, but I dont really need it to be immensly optimizsed. its not really so slow that it.. hinders me in any way
<Gremlin8483> fair enough, i used ripgrep in other distros where its easy to isntall, it helps if you have to grep through a massive codebase or filesystem
<sad_plan> sure. thats where it shines, but when im grepping like 10 files or so, it doesnt really matter :p
<Gremlin8483> was just curious what power users prefer these days
<Gremlin8483> absolutely
<sad_plan> that would probably be gnu grep, as thats whats installed on most systems. that is unless you use something niche like kiss, or Oaiss linux
<Gremlin8483> gotcha, sometimes simple and common is better
<sad_plan> yeah. I also sometimes ask myself, does this even matter? would I even be able to notice this on a regular basis?
<Gremlin8483> kiss!
<sad_plan> thats one significant change that youll for sure notice if someone switched from arch to kiss on your pc :p
<Gremlin8483> but no, lets write our package manager in some obscure functional language
<sad_plan> lets write it in rc
<sad_plan> ultimate niche. or something
<Gremlin8483> better yet invent a new language tahts turing complete and write it in that
<sad_plan> yeah, or some other useless language like brainfuck
<Gremlin8483> weve hit a plateau for sure in this type of stuff
<sad_plan> yup
<Gremlin8483> reinventing the wheel has gone to a new level
<sad_plan> indeed
<Gremlin8483> more complexity =/= novel and progress
<sad_plan> lol
<Gremlin8483> im still having a bit of trouble with the alternative thing
<Gremlin8483> when i give the args /path package it gives some null error
<sad_plan> hm. does the alternative actually exist though?
<Gremlin8483> i went back and put the paths in >path>to>alt format
<Gremlin8483> since i saw the code replaces > with /s
<Gremlin8483> stil dont work
<Gremlin8483> so all the files are in /var/db/kiss/choices
<Gremlin8483> they are all >path>to>vim format
<Gremlin8483> flat directory
<sad_plan> strange
<Gremlin8483> do i have some new kiss version?
<sad_plan> yeah, thats correct
<sad_plan> its suppose to be like that
<Gremlin8483> maybe they changed it since you installed
<Gremlin8483> ok
<sad_plan> util-linux>usr>bin>rev on my end
<Gremlin8483> and i run kiss a >path>to>vim vim2
<sad_plan> and it just errors out?
<sad_plan> could try to delete both, and reinstall one, then the second
<Gremlin8483> says alternative vim2 vim2 doesnt exist
<sad_plan> yeah, then reinstall them
<Gremlin8483> kiss a vim2>usr>bin>vim vim2 is what i ran
<sad_plan> kiss a /usr/bin/vim vim2
<Gremlin8483> /var/db/kiss/choices/vim2>usr>bin>vim does exist tho
<Gremlin8483> that gives invalid argument
<sad_plan> correct is 'kiss a pathtofile pkgname
<Gremlin8483> doesnt let me use '/'
<sad_plan> what
<Gremlin8483> the code says he filtered '/' out along with other symbols
<Gremlin8483> i have no idea
<Gremlin8483> lol
<Gremlin8483> i can only use the '>' symbol
<sad_plan> uninstall and install them
<Gremlin8483> in $2
<Gremlin8483> ok
<sad_plan> that isnt neccessary, you should just de kiss a /usr/bin/vim vim2
<Gremlin8483> that makes sense to me
<Gremlin8483> ok something broke i think
<sad_plan> what output did you get?
<Gremlin8483> probably in for a reinstall, kiss l says error bin not found
<Gremlin8483> wierd cuz i dont remember doing anything foolish, but probably i did
<Gremlin8483> the only env var kiss needs is KISS_PATH right
<Gremlin8483> i read about KISS_ROOT in the source but didnt think you need to set that yourself
<sad_plan> yes
<sad_plan> actually you dont even need that, you can just cd into every package you wanna build. combersome, yes, but doable
<Gremlin8483> thats cool
<Gremlin8483> really cool system
<Gremlin8483> i dont mind reinstalling
<Gremlin8483> gonna try to update first, and reboot
<Gremlin8483> gonna work my windows troubleshooting magic haha
<sad_plan> shouldnt need to reinstall just because you cant switch between vim1 and vim2
<Gremlin8483> kiss is saying bin not found with every command tho
<sad_plan> but sure, reinstalling kiss is a breeze initially once you have the kernel config ready
<Gremlin8483> cant list the packages
<sad_plan> did you unset PATH or something?
<Gremlin8483> might just copy the kernel bin over lol
<Gremlin8483> both path and kiss path are intact
<Gremlin8483> hmm
<sad_plan> hm
<Gremlin8483> need to make frequent disk images of this install
<Gremlin8483> at least when starting out
<sad_plan> I never did that, and I got by. did reinstall some times though because things absolutly broke down for me
<Gremlin8483> what kind of things for you?
<sad_plan> like nothing in /bin works. compiler breaks, and copying a working one dont work. all kinds of stuff. ive messed alot with my system :p
<Gremlin8483> i look forward to it
<Gremlin8483> the taste of freedom
<Gremlin8483> time to rm -rf / this mofo
<sad_plan> yeah, its frustrating when youre actually trying to do something, but its still something that gives you an oppurtinuty to learn
<sad_plan> you can actually just re extract the tarball
<Gremlin8483> maybe i should just do taht
<Gremlin8483> the kernel and modules are OK
<Gremlin8483> but yea my future strategy will be to create a restore image per day, maybe
<sad_plan> having a tarball laying around will save you most of the time. also if you have it unpacked into a dir can make you set that to beginning of PATH, if all you utilities break
<Gremlin8483> i still have the tarball sitting around in / lol
<Gremlin8483> also the kernel make directories
<Gremlin8483> so this wont take long
<sad_plan> yeah, just unpack it somewhere in $HOME or w/e. that way you always have a spare if you need it
<Gremlin8483> oh i know what happend i think
<Gremlin8483> i pressed control c during a package build
<Gremlin8483> shouldnt have done that
<Gremlin8483> might have itnerfered with kiss's state
<sad_plan> no, just the package you didnt install
<Gremlin8483> i got it
<Gremlin8483> either arch or ubuntu sent out a hit squad after my machine after they found out i left them
<sad_plan> canonical sent an army of sysd plebs because someone is trying to break free from sysd jail
<Gremlin8483> they are pretty rabid about sysd
<Gremlin8483> but only because sysd distracts from all the other "d"'s that pollute the ecoysstem
<Gremlin8483> at one time i thought it was just sysd, how naive of me
<sad_plan> some peple are, but I dont really find it very productive to argue about why sysd bad, and runit good or w/e. just use whatever works man
<Gremlin8483> i dont argue either i just read about it
<sad_plan> its websites about it. its a shitstorm really
<Gremlin8483> its also scary, my fear is eventually all new software will be developed for sysd
<sad_plan> while I do appreciate distros that stray away from the mainstream gnu/sysd stuff, I dont really see a point in trying to argue as to wether theyre better or worse :p
<Gremlin8483> while we may ahve the non sysd stuff, eventually upstream may not cater to us anymore
<sad_plan> unlikely
<Gremlin8483> i hope youre right
<sad_plan> then dont use upstream. use something else.
<sad_plan> open source is great that way. if people disagree, they fork and go in a diffrent direction
<Gremlin8483> thats the hope that will keep going this way
<sad_plan> also, you might find this interesting if you wanted to use w3m
<Gremlin8483> the danger is the groupthink and crowd mentality, there needs to be always alternatives
<sad_plan> its a.. debloated if you will, w3m
<sad_plan> > groupthink
<Gremlin8483> oh wow
<sad_plan> thats some 1984 stuff ritght there
<Gremlin8483> let me check it out
<sad_plan> if youve ever read it
<Gremlin8483> we read it in high school
<Gremlin8483> i bought a copy for family to read recently
<Gremlin8483> they liked it
<sad_plan> cool
<Gremlin8483> thanks for the link, i had no idea
<Gremlin8483> of course i used w3m because it was supported by distros
<Gremlin8483> didnt really go outside of distroware till now
<Gremlin8483> i hope they still support my shells scripts
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<sad_plan> just look through it. aloooooot of stuff has been removed. then its stopped dead in the water 2yrs ago or so
<Gremlin8483> yea it never struck me as bloated, maybe the code wasnt so clean, but i wonder what features could be removed
<Gremlin8483> tabs, images, shell execution, were all useful things, but ill check it out
<sad_plan> I belive he eventually removed 90k loc or somthing. ill doublecheck
<Gremlin8483> wow what a boss
<sad_plan> yeah, upstream w3m is 123k loc, where as w3l, the fork is 34k
<Gremlin8483> he is the kiss king of browsers
<sad_plan> so.. he removed quite a bit to say the least.
<Gremlin8483> he better leave me tabs alone!
<Gremlin8483> tahts all i have left!
<sad_plan> check the readme, I dont recall if he removed them or not
<sad_plan> lol
<sad_plan> could just use tabbed instead though
<sad_plan> or tmux, or something similar
<sad_plan> you can also check out gotbletu on youtube. he has some content on w3m. might be of interest
<Gremlin8483> tabs looks like its still there
<Gremlin8483> i was hoping to implement something like treetabs myself eventually
<Gremlin8483> maybe his leaner code base will allow me to do taht
<Gremlin8483> since i can read it now maybe
<Gremlin8483> my alternative was just using a shell script wrapper around it to make tabs
<sad_plan> would be easier to work with anyway, seeing as its waaay less cruft
<sad_plan> you can that too
<Gremlin8483> im faster with shell anyway
<Gremlin8483> im still pretty new with c
<sad_plan> cool. dont know much C myself either, but I really wanna learn more of it
<Gremlin8483> i just started learning in the last 2 months, but i been trying to read it for ages, like peeking at source codes
<Gremlin8483> the problem with c, after language hopping, is that the project structure is bloated and non intuitive
<Gremlin8483> in my opinion
<Gremlin8483> otherwise think its a simple straightforward language
<sad_plan> why on earth are you language hopping? why not just use w/e works for what youre working on?
<Gremlin8483> you just have to implement all the libraries and functions yourself rather than importing like python
<sad_plan> or.. just use C for everything, or sh
<Gremlin8483> same reason i distro hop hehe
<Gremlin8483> i think i went through 10 languages in the last 2 years
<Gremlin8483> i still like doing some of them, just not unless i need them
<sad_plan> I dont know what to say...
<Gremlin8483> anyone can pick up all the languages, they are pretty mcuh the same
<Gremlin8483> just some fancy features here and there
<Gremlin8483> like distros, brand, etc
<Gremlin8483> as long as i stick to the simple loops and logic its ok
<Gremlin8483> the fancy language features arent always necessary
<Gremlin8483> like if you dont need oop or functional programming everything is very similar
<acidbong> Gremlin8483: I wonder if it's possible to go LSF way, but in a BSD chroot
<Gremlin8483> just use a linux install to bootstrap a BSD install?
<acidbong> no, kernels can't crosscompile
<acidbong> i mean, using BSD host
<Gremlin8483> as long as the package manger can be portable to bsd
<Gremlin8483> i see
<Gremlin8483> makes sense
<Gremlin8483> that would make kiss the ultimate distro, can drop in any kernel and any packages
<sad_plan> bsd's cant really be built separatly initially. most ship kernel+userland together in same source tree
<Gremlin8483> thats a bummer
<Gremlin8483> i only installed bsd once and dont use it much at all
<sad_plan> well.. yeah, but thats just the way its made
<Gremlin8483> so ultimately kiss is more flexible than most bsds
<sad_plan> its supposed to be like that, so its more intertwined.
<Gremlin8483> good to know
<sad_plan> yes, it is
<Gremlin8483> their kernel is what i was interested in, supposedly its more lightweight and more kiss than linux kernel
<Gremlin8483> wasnt interested in t heir ecosystem as much
<sewn> jo
<raph_ael> Gremlin8483: all bsds are different
<Gremlin8483> they are too tricksy
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<raph_ael> depends what you need / want
<raph_ael> debugging source packages failing is also a pain and tricky
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<Gremlin8483> is there any practical difference between kiss update and cd /var/db/kiss/installed && kiss b *? i ran both in succession when following the install guide but seems like the second command is redundant?
<Gremlin8483> meant to rephrase that, the first command includes the second i think?
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