jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<dnhester26> thanks!
<dnhester26> jcowan: ^^
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<dnhester26> jcowan: ;)
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<port19_> Hi all. Considering a background in clojure and solid emacs proficiency, what's a common lisp book you can recommend that doesn't do too much handholding?
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<beach> port19_: Portable Common Lisp is good.
<beach> It is for people who already know some programming. If you are more adventurous, you might try Paradigms of Artificial Programming instead.
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<beach> port19_: PCL is probably still better, because he mentions CLOS, whereas PAIP not so much in most of the code.
<beach> port19_: CLOS is used a lot in modern Common Lisp code, and that would be a big difference compared to what you already know.
<port19_> I have a copy of Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach collecting dust somewhere, PAIP could be a nice primer
<beach> As I recall, the one you have does not use Common Lisp.
<port19_> I'm a bit burned on OO due to poor java classes in college, I'd assume CL does things a bit different
<beach> But PAIP is really a book about programming in general and in Common Lisp in particular. Not so much about AI.
<beach> Yes, CLOS does it right.
<beach> i.e., very differently.
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<beach> It does not confuse representation and encapsulation the way most object-oriented languages do.
<port19_> Ah, that's nice. I'll check out PAIP then. I've been warming up to the idea of mutating code again by writing my advent of code solutions in emacs lisp this year. If only elisp wasn't so slow :(
<port19_> Continuations aren't available in clojure, PAIP explains those right?
<beach> Common Lisp does not have first-class continuations.
<port19_> Oh well, not like I'm loosing a feature I know. In terms of setup, just sbcl + sly/slime in emacs?
<beach> That's the best we have.
<beach> Debugging facilities are not great, though. Most people don't seem to mind.
<port19_> Do you have sth like cider-inspect? Like some introspection capability to display the last return in a more detailed way than just throwing it into the message area? Mostly useful for inspecting nested lists and how they change
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<beach> I don't know about cider-inspect. But you have a built-in inspector and SLIME has one that is a bit better. I use Clouseau myself, which is part of the McCLIM library.
<port19_> I'm sure I'll be fine, thx for the suggestions
<beach> ywlcm
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<dnhester26> beach: ok, I just added a bunch of additional links that were missing. Only a few dictionary item links, but a bunch of glossary links, and as I was checking the output and comparing it to the clhs I think I even found a place where it seems my parsing was better for "environment parameter" here https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/f_find_c.htm yet it is an entry by itself in the glossary see here: https://lisp-docs.
<dnhester26> github.io/cl-language-reference/chap-7/h-h-dictionary/find-class_accessor
<ixelp> CLHS: Accessor FIND-CLASS
<ixelp> find-class | Common Lisp (New) Language Reference
<beach> Great!
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<dnhester26> beach: when you said Portable Common Lisp, was that a typo and you really meant Practical Common Lisp instead? If not, where can I access that book? I couldn't find it on Google...
<beach> Oh, yes, typo. Sorry.
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<dnhester26> got it, thanks.
<dnhester26> beach: what is the purpose of writing SICL https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/ ?
<ixelp> GitHub - robert-strandh/SICL: A fresh implementation of Common Lisp
<beach> dnhester26: The main idea is to cut down the collective maintenance burden of free and open-source Common Lisp implementations by providing modules that can be used in any such Common Lisp implementation.
<beach> dnhester26: And, ultimately, to create a new Common Lisp implementation based on those modules.
<beach> dnhester26: Most existing Common Lisp implementation started life before the standard existed, and the code could be structured better than it is.
<beach> Error reporting could be better. Debugging support could be better, etc.
<dnhester26> meaning this would allow them to replace their code which may be non standard compliant with an already given open source module?
<dnhester26> beach: yeah, I was just reading the slides on the eclector project
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<beach> Sort of. Usually, their code is already conforming to the standard.
<yitzi> All implementations pass ansi-test for the most part, so they are already really standard compliant.
<beach> dnhester26: Eclector is one of the first modules we created. It has since developed into a very good library.
<pfdietz> SICL also has some cool new ideas for better efficiency.   I would really, really like fast implementations where there is no substantial penalty for using generic functions over ordinary functions.
<beach> And that, yes.
<beach> I am particularly excited about the use of call-site optimization according to the ELS paper.
<pfdietz> Me too!
<pfdietz> (he says in bystander mode)
<beach> But even more important to me is better debugging support.
<yitzi> And the ability to test and use individual sub-systems of the CL standard in a host implmentation is very useful.
<beach> Absolutely.
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<pfdietz> The other place where I feel CL could use sprucing up is in better aligning it with modern realities of arrays being preferable to linked structures.  But I don't know how that could be done and keep it CL.
<dnhester26> beach: you said for debugging you use McCLIM, how do you do that exactly? Or what would you recommend to someone like me, just keep to the SLIME frames and worry about better debugging tools later?
<beach> dnhester26: I use the Clouseau inspector from McCLIM. That's all for now, but we are working on more stuff.
<beach> dnhester26: Oh, and I wrote some tools specific to SICL that use McCLIM.
<beach> dnhester26: Like a backtrace inspector and some visualizers for ASTs and intermediate code.
<beach> dnhester26: Most existing Common Lisp systems don't use the full language for many of their modules. This is often because they were written before CLOS was part of the language. Not using CLOS often makes the code less maintainable. So the modules we produce use the full language for their implementation.
<dnhester26> beach: would you recommend I try to learn how to use McCLIM for the inspector or just stick to regular SLIME
<beach> dnhester26: Clouseau is very easy to use. No need to learn all of McCLIM for that.
<beach>
<pfdietz> Even in SBCL, you better not call a user-defined generic function in the macroexpand hook.
<dnhester26> beach: you said above that instead of PCL we could try PAIP, in the book itself, Norvig recommends two other books for experienced programmers: "A Programmer's Guide to Common Lisp" and "Common LISPcraft". However they were written it seems before the ANSI Standard came out. Have you read those books? What are your thoughts on them?
<dnhester26> Here's the link: https://norvig.github.io/paip-lisp/#/preface?id=supplementary-texts-and-reference-books
<ixelp> Document
<pfdietz> Because of how CLOS is implemented there, this rapidly crashes, as compiling code on the fly during such a call causes a "vicious metacircle".
<beach> dnhester26: I don't think those books will give any more insight.
<dnhester26> beach: any more insight than PAIP or than just going through CLTL2 or PCL?
<beach> dnhester26: After PAIP is probably Keene's book and then perhaps AMOP.
<dnhester26> beach: for some reason I find reading PCL painful, I find CLTL2 much better, should I stick to reading sections of CLTL2 as I need to learn something more in depth, or try PAIP? AMOP and Keene's are just for CLOS from what I could tell
<dnhester26> I just couldn't bare the time about examples and projects, I just wanted to learn what's different from say C, Java, Python etc... I don't have the patience for books for non programmers explaining what an if expression is...
<beach> If you don't need help structuring your code, you can read CLtL2. But people who learn Common Lisp usually have no idea how to use it, so then you need something else, like PAIP.
<beach> People who come from other languages have a tendency to write Common Lisp with an "accent" from their old language.
<beach> Then the code is absolutely not nice.
<dnhester26> beach: Ah, got it. Thanks. So CLtL2 and PAID together is enough, and then object oriented depth can be with AMOP and Keene's. Is that the conclusion?
<dnhester26> beach: ha! that's probably me then, so PAIP should hopefully help me with that
<beach> Almost. Keene's book is for the application writer.
<beach> AMOP is more for implementers, and way more advanced.
<beach> It took me three attempts to read AMOP.
<beach> PAIP is good in that it has great insight into the way Common Lisp programs can be structured.
<beach> Unfortunately, it is a bit skimpy on the use of CLOS.
<beach> We need a book that is like PAIP but that uses CLOS a lot more.
<dnhester26> got it, thanks a lot
<beach> Sure.
<dnhester26> beach: By structuring code in the PAIP do you mean how to break up functions or how to break up packages and files?
<beach> Mainly the former.
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<beach> In Common Lisp, one way of parameterizing code is to use first-class functions, and that way is often not available in other languages. Of course, with CLOS, it is often even better to use instances of standard classes and methods specialized to those classes.
<aeth> pfdietz: The way to do a data structure that looks like a list to the user and looks like an array to the machine is CDR coding, from the '70s... it can be done to immutable lists, so you'd just need a separate ilist/icons sequence type. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDR_coding
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<aeth> or I guess I should say, a separate ilist, from (or null icons), sequence type
<beach> dnhester26: If you get bored with books like PCL, and perhaps PAIP too, then I can suggest reading the code of some good libraries.
<beach> dnhester26: Or you can submit your code here (or in #clschool) to get feedback.
<dnhester26> beach: thanks. I enjoy when it's a straight to the point definition and concept, with maybe some examples provided if I need them, but I don't want to waste my time reading tons of examples for building up a concept... I'm more used to reading math textbooks, so I just don't need the build up necessarily unless it's in a section called motivation or the why...
<dnhester26> What libraries would you recommend?
<beach> Hard to say. I might need help from others here. The libraries I know of are often tuned to Common Lisp implementation task.
<beach> It would probably be better to start with some application library.
<beach> Maybe Shinmera has some.
<dnhester26> beach: I will take a look at PAIP but just going over it without caring so much about reviewing AI could be boring
<Shinmera> hm?
<Shinmera> sorry, I'm out of the loop, has some for what?
<dnhester26> beach: that's a lot of what I've done mainly as I was trying to understand undocumented libraries haha and I learned a few things that way
<beach> Libraries for dnhester26 to study rather than getting bored from reading text books.
<Shinmera> Ah
<dnhester26> Shinmera: code examples to learn how to structure common lisp code
<dnhester26> thanks to you both
<beach> Shinmera: You have more general-purpose libraries than we do I think.
<Shinmera> uuuuh, I always say that I have no idea about the quality of my code for others to look at. Some say I write good code, but I can't really say what would be exemplary myself.
<beach> Hmm.
<Shinmera> you'd have to ask someone besides me that's actually read them
<Shinmera> I think phoe read a bunch?
<beach> dnhester26: Oh, I recommend Cluffer.
<beach> dnhester26: It is a library that implements an editor buffer.
<Shinmera> I had fun with https://github.com/shinmera/iclendar to bend MOP to force the iclendar protocol into something that feels "native".
<ixelp> GitHub - Shinmera/iclendar: iCalendar/RFC5545 file format library for Common Lisp
<Shinmera> but it'd probably be hard to grok without any MOP understanding prior
<beach> dnhester26: Cluffer comes with a test suite and documentation.
<dnhester26> beach: great, looking into it. thanks
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<beach> Sure. Almost forgot about it. :)
<dnhester26> Shinmera: thanks, will take a look, I have some CLOS understanding and had to do things with closer-mop before so I'll give it a try
<dnhester26> beach: ah you wrote that one :D
<beach> Yes. The result of some 3 decades of thinking. :)
<beach> And scymtym is working on a library that uses Cluffer, and that provides most of the basic editing functions needed in an editor. When that library is published, it will be very easy to write a new text editor.
<dnhester26> beach: interesting, the second result in google was second-climacs, how come there was now collaboration with lem? did they use your project or just start from scratch?
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<beach> dnhester26: Lem does not have any sophisticated analysis of the Lisp code as far as I know.
<dnhester26> ^^there was no*
<beach> dnhester26: I think they started from scratch. But the goals are very different it seems.
<beach> dnhester26: Second Climacs uses Eclector to parse the contents of the Common Lisp buffer, simply because the Common Lisp reader is the only true parser for Common Lisp code. Anything based on a fixed grammar or regular expressions will be a very rough approximation.
<dnhester26> So second climacs is about providing a more integrated environment to the CL code to allow better debugging and dealing with the text? So it's a proper approach to developing an IDE, whereas lem is just implementing emacs in CL meaning make an text editor we can extend with CL but not really innovating on the IDE side of things. Did I understand correctly?
<Shinmera> Lem's goal is to replace Emacs, pretty much
<beach> dnhester26: I don't know much about Lem, so I can't compare.
<jcowan> It would be nice to have a guide to CL for Scheme programmers, covering both incidental differences (Lisp-2, defun vs. define, #t vs else in cond, etc.) and then LOOP and CLOS
<beach> dnhester26: But yes, Second Climacs is meant to be a better editor for Common Lisp code.
<dnhester26> beach: did I understand the goal for Second Climacs correctly though?
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<beach> Yes.
<dnhester26> Shinmera: is lem just implementing emacs in CL meaning make an text editor we can extend with CL but not really innovating on the IDE side of things?
<dnhester26> beach: thanks
<Guest3777> A belated merry solstice to all!
<beach> Guest3777: Thanks. You too.
<Shinmera> dnhester26: I don't know enough to say
<Guest3777> Emacs in CL? How far along?
<Shinmera> But the author would like to make it good enough for people to use instead of emacs
<Shinmera> that's all I know
<beach> dnhester26: But of course, to use Eclector to parse the buffer, I had to invent an incremental parsing technique so as to avoid having to parse the entire buffer contents after each. And the plan is to use something like Common Boot to apply the first passes of a Common Lisp compiler to the buffer at typing speed. Then the user will get much better feedback.
<dnhester26> Shinmera: thanks for answering
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<Guest3777> Most of the Emacs C code I've seen looks like humans emulated a Lisp-to-C compiler.
<beach> dnhester26: Most of this functionality will be extracted into libraries, so that someone could write a VIM-like editor but still get excellent Common Lisp support.
<dnhester26> beach: got it. So will you or someone write an editor with all this work from Eclector in addition to providing the libraries? or will you leave the actual editor to someone else? Since you already wrote Second Climacs I would assume the former
<beach> dnhester26: Second Climacs already uses Eclector, so yes.
<dnhester26> got it
<beach> dnhester26: Currently, scymtym is the one working on this stuff, and I don't know whether he is going to continue using Second Climacs or write something better.
<dnhester26> got it
<beach> Maybe scymtym can give more insight, if he is around. But he is probably busy with his family.
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<dnhester26> jcowan: if you get inspired to write one, I made a page that you can edit (edit link on the bottom or you can just join or fork the repo) https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/tutorial/for_programmers/scheme
<ixelp> CL from Scheme | Common Lisp Docs
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<dnhester26> What are the main concepts an experienced programmer learning lisp should learn? I started a list here: https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/tutorial/for_programmers anyone have any more ideas?
<ixelp> Common Lisp for Experienced Programmers | Common Lisp Docs
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<beach> The package system, the condition system, CLOS. And depending on the previous experience, the use of first-class functions.
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<beach> Macros, of course.
<beach> They are not used often, but when they are needed, they are essential for eliminating boilerplate code.
<dnhester26> beach: thanks
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<beach> Sure. And, again, feel free to submit your code for feedback.
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<jcowan> I've been thinking about what it might be to write an Emacs in CL. Specifically, start by writing a compiler from Elisp to CL, in which case CL:COMPILE is effectively the JIT. Then replace the C parts of Emacs with CL code. (Some of it could be rewritten in Elisp instead if the main reason for not using Elisp in C-Emacs is efficiency.)
<jcowan> This is basically the strategy used to convert from Racket BC ("Before Chez") to Racket CS ("Chez Scheme")
<jcowan> It's a lot easier to maintain Emacs if all its code is either Elisp or CL
<jcowan> There would be some performance cost relative to EmacsGCC, but hopefully not too bad
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<pfdietz> So, this would still support elisp?
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<aeth> I think any popular Emacs-like editor would support elisp whether it wanted to or not
<pfdietz> Yes.
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