jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<kevingal_> When I inspect the class asdf/system:system after finding a system with asdf:find-system, it lists the slot 'absolute-pathname'. But I can't access that slot when I call (slot-value sys 'absolute-pathname). Any ideas why?
<kevingal_> Also, when I use MOP functions to list all the slots, it doesn't show up there either.
<kevingal_> *I inspect an object of that type
<pfdietz> Is the slot name you're giving in the correct package?
<kevingal_> Hmm, probably not.
<bike> i see absolute-pathname in the slots of asdf/system:system.
<kevingal_> That did the trick, thank you!
<pfdietz> You're welcome!
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<hayley> Lazy survey on my behalf - when someone runs SBCL with parallel GC with the environment GC_THREADS=4, should that mean that 4 threads are used to GC, or that 4 helper threads and one Lisp thread are used to GC?
<hayley> s/4 threads/4 threads in total/
<aeth> why would GC_THREADS=4 mean 5 threads?
<hayley> Why would it?
<hayley> Well, the question is more if you count the total number of threads, or how many helpers are used, and those numbers differ by one.
<moon-child> can you make other lisp threads help gc too?
<hayley> It's possible. What "number of GC threads" means is hairier with concurrent GC too.
<aeth> if you wanted 4, GC_HELPER_THREADS, then... sure it's verbose, but it's less surprising/confusing than GC_THREADS
<aeth> HTHREADS
<moon-child> hayley: I think it should be the overall number of threads used
<moon-child> to gc
<moon-child> that one of those threads also runs lisp code is an implementation detail
<hayley> That's my line of thinking too.
<aeth> I think people only care about the number of threads if they're doing multithreading that will utilize 100% of a certain number of threads
<aeth> so practically speaking, the total is more useful because otherwise they'll off-by-one
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<jobhdez> beach I remember you spoke positively about Muchnick's compiler book so i bought it. im more interested in the backend of the compiler.
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<beach> Yes, his book is essentially about various optimizations a compiler can do.
<beach> So he does not discuss parsing at all for instance.
<jobhdez> it seem pretty up to date. do you agree with this?
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<beach> Yes, the field does not evolve very fast it seems.
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<beach> Maybe there is something more recent that talks about issues like cache, threads/cores, etc. But I am unaware of something like that.
<jobhdez> thats great. thanks. the dragon book second edition is also good. i skipped the first 4-5 chapters but this book gave me a big picture of the field. other than this book do you have recommendations to learn register allocation in depth?
<beach> And I should warn you (again perhaps?) that his pseudo language is crap. So to understand the main ideas of a technique, the book is great, but if you want to implement it, you are better off going to the source, i.e., the published paper.
<beach> I don't know of anything specifically dedicated to register allocation. Perhaps hayley knows.
<jobhdez> ok thanks. ill search for the references. thank you very much
<beach> Sure.
<hayley> I don't know of any books on register allocation. There's papers on particular algorithms like linear scan, graph colouring and estimated distance to use. But I'm not sure if those suffice - Cliff Click told me that it's important to split in cold code with graph colouring, there might be other important details.
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<jobhdez> hayley its so impressive what you did with respect to the garbage collector you did for sbcl. did you start by implementing toy garbage collectors?
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<hayley> Yes, <https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/baker-gc> and <https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/gc-noodling> though they didn't really influence the collector I wrote for SBCL.
<ixelp> GitHub - no-defun-allowed/baker-gc: A loose interpretation of an incremental copying collector
<hayley> For the collector in SBCL I just kept adding parts. First was the allocator, which I can use (for a little while) without garbage collecting. Then a serial non-generational collector, then generations, then parallelism, then incremental compaction.
<jobhdez> i see. thats so cool. i see that you wrote the garbage collector in racket. im using racket right now for a project and i think im going back to common lisp. i havent utilized the whole power of common lisp
<hayley> I used Racket because it has a language for teaching garbage collection, but it's a bit too simple to have fun in my opinion.
<jobhdez> very cool. thanks for sharing
* moon-child thinks contrariwise that some of the most important work in compilers has come out in the last 5-10 years. But.
<beach> moon-child: Please let us know.
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<ixelp> egg
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<moon-child> also modular analysis (cousot and cousot, 2003 I think?). To a lesser extent https://arxiv.org/pdf/2104.01270.pdf and https://pointersgonewild.com/2015/09/24/basic-block-versioning-my-best-result-yet/
<bike> and yet this is mostly reminding me i need to stare even harder at cousot
<bike> i guess his book is new, even if he isn't
<bike> their book/they aren't, rather
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<bike> thanks for the links
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<moon-child> bike: on the egraphs site they have a bunch of links--the important ones are the original one, ruler, and egglog
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<dnhester_> hi beach
<dnhester_> good afternoon
<dnhester_> sorry, just saw your message now
<dnhester_> I just finished basically parsing the whole spec again
<ixelp> and | Common Lisp (New) Language Reference
<dnhester_> I hope
<dnhester_> I went by hand into every commit I could find that you did to add your changes after I parsed the spec again
<dnhester_> There were some pages missing because of similarly named dictionary items
<dnhester_> a function and class or type having the same name
<dnhester_> I also wanted to ask you: is it ok to add the textual additions in this section: https://lisp-docs.github.io/cl-language-reference/chap-5/f-d-dictionary/and_macro#expanded-reference-and ?
<ixelp> and | Common Lisp (New) Language Reference
<dnhester_> That way the "info" boxes are only for changes to the specification, and anything in the expanded reference is understood to be in addition to the original spec
<dnhester_> What do you think?
<dnhester_> I added links and tooltips to the whole reference as well. I think the vast majority of links should be working now, if there are any that you notice missing, you can add them and even let me know. I added them programmatically with a script
<dnhester_> So I don't expect it to be 100% perfect
<dnhester_> Here's the script for reference, but not need to look into it https://github.com/lisp-docs/process-dpans3r/blob/master/add-cl-links.py
<epony> Happy Christ Nativity!
<Josh_2> Merry Christmas :D
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<epony> happy merry
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<beach> dnhester_: The fix of the indentation of the first example is gone.
<dnhester_> beach, let me check, my bad
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<beach> dnhester_: I don't want to tell you how you want the language reference to look. It seems you want it to be a slight modification plus an addition to the standard. I saw it as a different document altogether, but with text from the standard used where appropriate.
<dnhester_> beach: I ran the emacs indentation on all the files. but I missed deleting some white space you had deleted. Just fixed it, will deploy it now.
<beach> dnhester_: But I will work with your idea.
<beach> dnhester_: OK.
<dnhester_> beach: just do whatever you think is best. I was only worried for people who are not experts like you who may modify things and make mistakes. But I guess it's somewhat safe to assume that if someone doesn't really know what he is doing he is not going to change the text
<dnhester_> you can probably change anything you want and it will remain correct, I was more worried about newbies like me haha
<beach> OK. Well, the most important thing is to fix the examples, and to get more explanations in there, no matter where they appear.
<ixelp> and | Common Lisp (New) Language Reference
<beach> dnhester_: That's not the traditional indentation for IF, but this one works too.
<dnhester_> beach: Do you think it's enough to have the links we have now, or should I make another script to add all the Section Links in the "See Also" section? Please take a look here: https://lisp-docs.github.io/cl-language-reference/chap-5/f-d-dictionary/apply_function
<ixelp> apply | Common Lisp (New) Language Reference
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<dnhester_> beach: hm, I can run the script again, or maybe my emacs has some setting that makes it indent differently??
<madnificent> dnhester_: It seems the and example misses a closing paren
<beach> I wouldn't worry about additional references right now. Again, the most important part is to get more explanations in there.
<beach> dnhester_: Oh, wow, I see a mistake on the APPLY page.
<beach> You turned the argument FUNCTION into a link, and it is in bold.
<beach> But it shouldn't be, because it is a parameter variable. Not the name of an operator.
<dnhester_> madnificent: thanks, just in the end?
<beach> dnhester_: The only occurrence of FUNCTION that should be a link is the one in See Also.
<dnhester_> beach: yeah, those happend in a few places, I wasn't sure if it was a problem. Should remove all the tooltips and dictionary links for the Syntax and Arguments and Values sections?
<madnificent> dnhester_: I misread. Got thrown off by the indentation beach mentioned. Sorry.
<beach> dnhester_: The tooltip for the dictionary entry is fine.
<beach> dnhester_: But it should not be a link to the operator, since it is the name of a lexical variable.
<dnhester_> beach: even in the clhs there are links everywhere: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_apply.htm
<ixelp> CLHS: Function APPLY
<beach> dnhester_: Same thing for LIST in that paragraph.
<dnhester_> I would've saved a lot of work by trying to parse it. I made a script to identify any glossary terms and dictionary items to add links and tooltips. Are the tooltips OK, it's just the links that are no good?
<beach> dnhester_: Look at the third word of the second paragraph of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<beach> "When the function receives..."
<beach> That is not a link.
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<beach> dnhester_: And the things like "rest list" are links to the glossary.
<dnhester_> madnificent thanks
<beach> dnhester_: Sorry, bad example...
<beach> Take the last two words of that paragraph "... list structure".
<dnhester_> beach: just saw it
<beach> OK.
<dnhester_> I'm re running the clean all double white lines and indent code scripts on the code blocks, once it's finished t'll try to figure out why it happened.
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<beach> OK.
<dnhester_> Should I add/keep glossary definition tooltips whenever a dictionary item is linked or not?
<dnhester_> beach, ok. Should I add/keep glossary definition tooltips whenever a dictionary item is linked or not?
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<beach> dnhester_: You might as well have both the tooltip for and a link to the glossary wherever the Common Lisp HyperSpec has just a link.
<beach> dnhester_: The problem here was that you turned names that happened to be names of operators into operator links.
<beach> ... and rendered them in bold.
<dnhester_> beach: yeah, but I meant whenever it's a dictionary item and not a glossary item. For example if you hover over apply which is a link to the same page (same as clhs) it also has a tooltip definition because it is an item in the glossary
<beach> dnhester_: That issue has to be resolved for each case.
<beach> dnhester_: If you have something like "APPLY will apply the function..." then the first APPLY is the name of the operator and the second is a glossary reference.
<beach> Same with "LIST will build a list..."
<beach> Or "FUNCTION returns a function"
<dnhester_> beach: The rendering in bold when it shouldn't is an issue, though I think it may have been an issue in something I added, I'm going to check something that may be a quick fix
<beach> It is not only the rendering. It is also a link to the operator dictionary entry.
<dnhester_> beach: are you referring in those examples to the bold?
<beach> Yes.
<dnhester_> ok so both the bolding and the link
<beach> Yes, look at that "... list structure".
<beach> The "list" is a link to the operator LIST.
<beach> It shouldn't be.
<beach> It should be a link to the glossary, or no link at all.
<beach> dnhester_: Would you be better off to start with the result of parsing the TeX source that scymtym did?
<beach> Or that of gilberth? I don't know the copyright of those.
<beach> They must have preserved the original markup in the TeX source so you wouldn't have this kind of ambiguity.
<dnhester_> beach: Nope, I just fixed the bolding everywhere, it's a bug I added this last time around because of foregtting to remove something old.
<dnhester_> As for the link, I am basically almost finished
<dnhester_> I'm just making another quick component in react and will have to run the scripts again
<beach> OK.
<dnhester_> The scripts do take a bit of time to run though
<beach> Sure.
<dnhester_> beach: whenever something is a dictionary item, but not a glossary link, and nevertheless the glossary has a definition for it, like in the "apply" example, which is both the operator and there is a glossary entry for it. Should I have a definition tooltip or not?
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<beach> If the word refers to the operator, it should be a link to the operator. The glossary entry is then not an explanation of the operator.
<beach> So you should not have a tooltip then. The glossary entry would refer to something else, like in the case of "apply" is is a verb.
<beach> it is
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<dnhester_> beach: got it, thanks. Will let you know when it's done
<beach> Great!
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<beach> dnhester_: For indentation, are you using slime-indentation? If not, you might be getting Emacs Lisp indentation, which would explain the unusual indentation of IF.
<dnhester_> beach: this is what I'm using: `"emacs --batch {} --eval '(indent-region {} {})' -f 'save-buffer'"`
<beach> So how do you know that you are in Lisp mode, and which Lisp mode is it?
<dnhester_> replacing the brackets with file name and 0 and the length of the file
<dnhester_> beach: I have no idea
<beach> Then you are very likely not using slime-indentation.
<dnhester_> do you know if it's possible to add some argument to the command to do that?
<dnhester_> I named the file .lisp
<beach> Not me, no.
<dnhester_> one sec, let me verify, I just don't remember
<beach> Then that will take care of the Lisp mode, but not slime-indentation.
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<dnhester_> beach: Two questions: what is the difference between `slime` and `slime-mode`? if I open a file in `slime-mode` will it automatically use slime-indentation if I run `indent-region`?
<beach> It didn't use to, but I have been told it does that automatically now. I am not the one to ask probablyh.
<beach> probably
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<beach> `slime' is a command that starts up the entire interaction with the Common Lisp implementation. `slime-mode' I guess is the sub mode of lisp mode that is then used for Common Lisp source code. Just guessing.
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<beach> So weird things happen in this situation: I execute some code, and it errors, so I end up in the SLIME "debugger". Then I switch back to the REPL buffer and hit RETURN to get a REPL prompt. There, I try to load a new system, typically Clouseau. But then some other system is loaded as well (in this case Bordeaux Threads) and this causes another error, which would not have been caused, had I tried to load Clouseau without first bei
<beach> in the SLIME "debugger".
<beach> It happened the other day, and it happened again right now. Last time it happened, I had to remove my entire cache because there were systems in there that would no longer load.
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<beach> Maybe something happens to *FEATURES* when I do it that way.
<beach> Ah, yes, got it.
<beach> I am the one modifying *FEATURES* when I load the system that fails, so it is in a strange state when the SLIME "debugger" is invoked.
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<dnhester26> beach: should be online now
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<beach> Great!
<beach> Oh, the indentation of the AND example is very wrong.
<beach> The (< n length...) should be aligned under (>= n 0), but I admit that SLIME has been doing AND wrong for me lately.
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<dnhester26> beach: wait, for some reason some changes didn't make it, re deploying again... sorry
<beach> Oh!
<dnhester26> didn't make the slime indent yet, I was just changing the dictionary links, bolding, removing the definition for dictionary items, and having only terms have the definition tooltip with a link to the glossary
<beach> I see.
<beach> That seems to have fixed it, yes.
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<jobhdez> what do you all think about this article https://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html
<ixelp> The Bipolar Lisp Programmer
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<jcowan> dnhester26: when you forget to label a posting with the nick of the person you are addressing, you can follow it up with "nick: ^^", where "^^" means "see the above", rather than repeating it
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<jcowan> jobhdez: I think the ending is sort of self-illustrating: it starts out great, but ends incomplete and in melancholia, just like the kind of Lisp work it describes
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<gilberth> jobhdez: First of all, I was one of the students who at school never did any homework and never prepared for some exam longer than maybe half a day. Then at uni I was all of the sudden confronted with Bs and Cs. In math at least, my CS grades still were As. So I can relate to that part. I came across this elsewhere: Bright people when exposed to school don't need to put any effort whatsoever into it, that when they hit uni, ...
<gilberth> ... they have not learned yet, that at times, you actually need to put in effort. So much for the first part where I find myself.
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<jobhdez> jcowan, gilberth: thanks
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<gilberth> btw, I actually managed to fail one math exam. Would I have failed second time, I would have fail all of the CS program. Painful experience to me. I just haven't taken it serious enough.
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<zyd> With quicklisp, is there a way to have more verbose output as a system/package loads? I'm trying to load mcclim but for some reason the loading of packages it depends on eventually stalls out and I don't know how to poke at it to inspect what's happening.
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<zyd> Nevermind, I believe its some issue with Emacs and/or slime as I can perfectly load mcclim from a terminal in the sbcl repl. Hm.
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