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<jcowan>
That's not so good either: under what circumstances would the form in WITH-HASH-TABLE-ITERATOR *not* produce a hash table?
<Reinhilde>
We live on borrowed sunshine
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<moon-child>
jcowan: when the user's code is in error, presumably
<jcowan>
I was talking about the SHOULD, which is defined by RFC 2119 (following ISO) as "This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood andcarefully weighed before choosing a different course." I can't see what particular circumstances there might be; I think the right modal verb is MUST.
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<moon-child>
rfc 2119 postdates common lisp by quite a bit
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<prokhor>
is there any cl implementation written in a minimal subset of lisp? (so i could load the definitions in hylang or norvig's minimal lisp interpreter and have a complete cl in python)?
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<beach>
prokhor: We initially wanted to do that for SICL, but it turned out to be a bad idea. Each new "module" could use only a the restricted language defined by the previously loaded modules, which in turn made those modules unmaintainable. The code was ugly, and it would require a strict definition of what could and could not be used.
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<prokhor>
beach: i think i remember lisp being defined in itself in mezzano somewhere: do you think, that would work? (is that even a complete cl impl?)
<ixelp>
GitHub - snmsts/burgled-batteries3: A bridge between Python and Lisp (FFI bindings, etc.)
<beach>
prokhor: Well, in any major system, a large part of it will be defined in (perhaps some subset of) Common Lisp. But I think Mezzano relies on the existence of another Common Lisp system to build.
<beach>
prokhor: But froggey is around, so you an ask.
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<beach>
prokhor: Maybe ECL is a better fit. You can ask jackdaniel.
<prokhor>
beach: thx for advice... i asked froggey in #mezzano... the main thing is to identify that smaller subset though...
<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, are you trying to smuggle CL into another language?
<beach>
prokhor: Yeah, like I said, many Common Lisp system won't be written that way.
<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: yup, but i want to test whether it is possible to also smuggle open genera into eg python as there are complete implementations within...
<beach>
prokhor: Wouldn't such a thing be horrendously slow, given that Python is (as I recall) some 50 times slower than a good Common Lisp implementation?
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<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, cool. what would it let you do that you are currently unable to do?
<prokhor>
beach: it is my genera-mania again (i am sure, you remember) given moores law, speed would be negligible ;)
<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, what about medley interlisp? (it's working right now)
<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: its just an idea (i tend to have seizures of megalomania now and then ;) )
<prokhor>
first i must find a suitable impementation of cl at least in any lisp
<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: unfortunately, i dont know much about that... but genera has the advantage that all the source code is accessible / modifiable with a keystroke...
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<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, then do what explorers do: <echo> explore </echo>
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<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: as Eurisko has been rediscovered & run in interlispm, that time soon will come ;)
<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, I've run it. it's pretty straightforward. Now, I have no idea what the hell to do with Eurisko but I can confirm that it 'turns on'.
<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: I know Lenat's name & Eurisko since im like 10yo... that alone was exciting for me... but one usecase: somebody is trying to port eurisko to python...
<prokhor>
the real use will be when those kbs will be rediscovered...
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<varjag>
wait, eurisko? where
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<varjag>
found it
<varjag>
incredible
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<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: github.com/clozure/ccl ;)
<prokhor>
now i only have to find out what the initial subset is :D (and the load order of course)
<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, you're looking for an axiomatic CL.
<bjorkintosh>
I'm not sure it exists. I could be wrong.
<bjorkintosh>
If I am, you might have to bring one into existence. real-ize it.
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<Demosthenex>
hrm, so cl-ppcre:all-matches returns a flat list of integers which are the start and end of each match... what's a good way to iterate over these pairs?
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<bike>
(loop for (begin end) on matches by #'cddr ...)?
<bike>
or do-scans or do-matches.
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<Demosthenex>
bike: oh! yeah i guess do-scans/matches is best
<Demosthenex>
i should read the doc closer ;] ty
<bike>
no problem.
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<Demosthenex>
working thru my AOC puzzles ;]
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<prokhor>
bjorkintosh: such an endeavour would be far above my level ;)
<prokhor>
but it shure would be a nice thing to have...
<beach>
prokhor: Tell us again why you want this in Python!
<jcowan>
Where can I find an example of the use of restarters, especially ones other than the standardly-named restarters?
<beach>
restarts?
<jcowan>
yes
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<beach>
You can go to SICL/Code/Cleavir/CST-to-AST and grep for "restart".
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<beach>
But those are quite compiler specific. Maybe there are better ones elsewhere.
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<beach>
I think it was Pitman who described restarts as alternatives given to high-level code by low-level code, where low-level code detects an issue, but doesn't know what to do, and high-level code communicates what to do by invoking a restart.
<beach>
This description also explains why exception systems that always unwind the stack are broken.
<beach>
As I recall "Practical Common Lisp" has an example of that scenario in some logging code.
<aeth>
most software, especially desktop software, is basically designed to crash if it encounters unexpected behavior of any sort... while Common Lisp is designed to run multiple things that would seem like separate programs from within one shell-like REPL
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<jcowan>
okay, I'll read up on that example from PCL
<prokhor>
beach: after a quick overview i figured, i would have to implement ~150 funs/macros myself: If I ever wanted i dont want anymore ;)
<bjorkintosh>
prokhor, that's approximately 1 every 2 days or so.
<bjorkintosh>
with holidays in between.
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<beach>
prokhor: Heh, I see.
<beach>
prokhor: Maybe sometime in the future, you could tell me why Python. No rush of course.
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<NotThatRPG>
Quick design question: I have a GF that is dispatched based on a keyword (EQL) in all its main methods, of which there are four. There's an AROUND method that captures common set-up code. Here's the problem: one of the four keywords represents a different model (out-of-process execution) for which some of the set-up is inappropriate.
<NotThatRPG>
For now I just have conditionalized code that checks for that fourth keyword which works, but is ugly. I'd love to have an :around method that applies to all and then one that applies to the other three, as well. But it's not obvious how to do that in an elegant way.
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<NotThatRPG>
Note that this works as is, it just looks very ugly to me. So if the only available solutions are too ugly, it's fine to just leave it as is
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<prokhor>
beach: I simply wanted sht to not run in a dec alpha vm... hy first seemed a viable option.. of course, i am aware there are ffis for python as well...
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* Pixel_Outlaw
parsed GF temporarily as "Girl Friend"
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<earl-ducaine>
prokhor: I'm stumbling into thread midstream, but the FASLs for OpenGenera were recompiled for standard linux and modern X windows (with some patches)
<earl-ducaine>
If you wanted to run opengenera in python that would be the place to start I would think.
<earl-ducaine>
I suffered from (and still get bouts of) lisp machine mania. It does get better, but there's no cure that I'm aware of.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
@earl-ducaine, I know the InterLisp folks are looking for a hand unless you're very decided upon for your "lisp machine" dialect.
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<earl-ducaine>
Pixel_Oulaw: Larry Masinter was sitting in on the LispNYC meetup where Pitman was giving a talk (a lot about the ANSI standard process). Great presentation and Melogy was was mentioned. Definite twinges of incipient mania. :)
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