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<Pirx>
good morning
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<Inline>
morning
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<beach>
Hello Inline.
<Inline>
hello beach
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<edgar-rft>
(declaim (inline morning))
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<Pirx>
good morning
<Pirx>
oops
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<seok>
The term hash table refers to data structures which implements key-value data structures through use of hash function matching on the keys. Is there a term which is more general to this kind of structures which not only refers to such implementations but all kinds of structures which describes hierarchal objects referenced by keys, including arrays
<seok>
(refers by number), classes and other key-value implements like dictionaries
<bike>
what's hierarchical about them?
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<seok>
well you have the origin object, such as the hash table, and children objects which can be referenced by keys on the origin object
<seok>
Is that not a hierarchal structure?
<seok>
although you can have looping references, we could say those are special cases
<bike>
well, if that's hierarchical pretty much any kind of data structure would be, is all
<seok>
It would seem so
<bike>
you say "hierarchical" and i think something with multiple defined levels of hierarchy, like a tree
<Shinmera>
pointer soup? :)
<seok>
A tree is indeed a hierarchy, but in a way, isn't every data structure a tree?
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<Shinmera>
no
<seok>
what's not a tree?
<Shinmera>
a cycle
<bike>
arrays?
<seok>
well lists are trees in lisp, and they can be cyclic lists
<Shinmera>
no
<Shinmera>
a tree by definition is acyclic
<Shinmera>
if you change what that definition is you're speaking a different language
<seok>
ok, we could limit trees to structures that do not have cyclic references, and if we say only these kinds of structures are hierarchal, then my initial question would be wrongly worded as I referred to hash tables as a kind of hierarchal structure
<Shinmera>
i have no idea what you're going on about in general or what the point of this is meant to be
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<Shinmera>
or how it relates to lisp
<Shinmera>
for that matter
<seok>
its a conceptual topic that would be used in lisp, are those off limits?
<Shinmera>
it seems like an exercise in semantic pedantry, which I would hope is off topic since it's tedious and little else
<Shinmera>
but again I have no idea what you're going on about or why
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<bike>
i don't think there si any commonly used term to encompass both associative arrays and regular arrays while excluding other containers like sets.
<seok>
Hm ok
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<Pirx>
"indexed list" works for hashlists and arrays (difference is hashtables are not ordered)
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<phantomics>
Does anyone know what's going on with this? (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable* nil))) (set-macro-character #\~ handler-function nil *readtable*) (slot-value *readtable* 'sb-impl::extended-char-table))
<phantomics>
It gives me a 0-member hash table (note this is SBCL-specific)
<phantomics>
I'm trying to create a reader macro for a character but it doesn't work and my (set-macro-character) doesn't seem to cause any change in the readtable
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<beach>
It should.
<yitzi>
Why are you using slot-value? Why not just call get-macro-character?
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<phantomics>
get-macro-character returns it, but evaluating code inside the (let) form still doesn't work as if the reader macro is enabled
<beach>
phantomics: The entire form is read before *READTABLE* is bound.
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<phantomics>
If I throw an (eval "...") into the form it doesn't get applied
<phantomics>
In practice what I do is I have a macro that builds the (let) form around an invocation of (asdf:load-system something)
<beach>
phantomics: Did you see what I wrote?
<beach>
phantomics: You may try using (READ-FROM-STRING "...") inside the LET.
<phantomics>
Yes, I know the form is read without the readtable being changed, but if use a macro to wrap a (let) form around an invocation of (asdf:load-system ...) then the compilation of its code isn't using the macro as far as I can see
<phantomics>
Now I'm doing a (load) in there and it's appearing to work. I'll see if I can make it work in practice
<beach>
phantomics: Are you sure your files got recompiled, so that the FASL was not used?
<phantomics>
That may have been it
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<beach>
Was it?
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<Shinmera>
ASDF massages the readtable
<Shinmera>
you should use named-readtables and add an in-readtable to the top of each of your source files.
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<phantomics>
Hmm, that's not going to scale to my use case, the idea is creating a reader macro that can be applied to any system without needing to change the system
<phantomics>
Hence my approach of doing (let ((*readtable* changed-readtable)) (asdf:load-system system-name))
<mfiano>
Also note that user code needs to switch the readtable too
<phantomics>
One other thing, is there a good straightforward way of checking whether a character is eligible for use in an unescaped symbol? So far I'm just checking for membership in '(#\ #\Tab #\Newline #\Return)
<phantomics>
The idea in my system is that the readtable will be switched during a specific step in the build process
<mfiano>
For the symbol question, see the reader algorithm in clhs
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
I'm relatively new to threads in Common Lisp, are there rough edges to watch out for given they were not in the original spec? Is stuff like Let and friends safe for threads?
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<bike>
Pixel_Outlaw: sure. keep in mind that special variable bindings are thread local but the global variable is shared (and so you should only access it synchronized)
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Thanks for the insight. :)
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<bjorkintosh>
hmm. is nodgui a good way to do GUIs in cl?
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<Gleefre>
I wrote a macro MLET that is (kinda) same to MACROLET as FLET is to LABELS. Is there any existing library that provides such a macro?
<Gleefre>
I'm asking mostly because I'm not sure it works without bugs, as it uses &environment argument to macro (twice!), macro-function and embeds a function object as a literal object into code during macroexpansion...
<Pixel_Outlaw>
bjorkintosh, I've done a bit of LTK which is fine for simple forms but not good for speedy raster rendering. I think it might be built on it as a Tcl thing.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
If you're doing form bassed stuff and just want callbacks TCL can be OKish. If you need fast realtime rendering and more threaded structure other toolkits might be better.
<bjorkintosh>
Pixel_Outlaw, 'other' being?
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Something like GTK or similar. Though I think there are currently portability problems if I recall.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Something about a main thread locking/freezing on Windows.
<bjorkintosh>
ah great.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
However, since the TK stuff is message based you can always just send raw TK and have the latest features provided by Tk.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I would just never use it for realtime drawing and such because the canvas widget expects to store and render geometric shapes ... slowly.
<bjorkintosh>
oh this is a GUI app I'm thinking of, not a drawing app.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
But if you're recreating some data collection tool it's nice-enough-p.
<bjorkintosh>
more on the WIMPy side of things than the CAD/Paint side.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Should be OK for that.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Oh, one other thing. I believe destroying child nodes in the GUI are not provided by default in the CL wrapper and I had to look up that stuff. If you want a dynamic gui (populating options and removing them) you might have to look up the Tk command and send it directly.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
You need to "destroy" those not "delete" them.
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<Gleefre>
moon-child: Thanks for responce! I tried to come up with a way of using define-setf-expander here, but failed.
<Gleefre>
In particular it seems that you cannot use it on symbols in CL package :/
<moon-child>
that's right, you are not allowed to redefine things in the cl package
<bike>
Gleefre: you can define a setf expander for xx2 regardless of how xx2 itself is defined, is the point.
<bike>
if you want "defmacro! but works for setf" that's basically a matter of defmacro! being written appropriately
<Gleefre>
bike: Aha, I see, I though for some reason that the xx2 will expand first in any case.
<bike>
defining a setf expander for let is not the best path forward, if that's what you tried to do
<bike>
nope, setf is specifically defined to go for macroexpansion last
<Gleefre>
Hm, I suppose it should be possible to write a simple "wrapper" to let - say %let, that macroexpands to let but has a setf-expander
<bike>
clhs 5.1.2.7
<bike>
god damn robots
<Gleefre>
Although my original problem was with macrolet rather than let, so I should be able to make it work even if it has bindings by applying macroexpand-all first.
<yitzi>
bike: I think you need two colons in front now.
<Gleefre>
I should be able to successfully macroexpand-all & discard macrolet + bindings part in define-setf-expander, if I'm not mistaken
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<Gleefre>
... Although it seems that it would only work if the macroexpand-all uses the environment object :/
<Gleefre>
At least it doesn't work on CLISP for example
<Gleefre>
Oh, CLISP's macroexpantion doesn't have the macrolet part
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<Gleefre>
It seems that calling macroexpand-all on macrolet doesn't guarantee anything :/ CCL returns (progn ...), ABCL - (locally ...), most implementations return (macrolet ...), CLISP returns just the body...
<bike>
this is probably not the best way to do whatever you're trying to do. defmacro! already is pretty sketchy
<Gleefre>
Well, I started talking about defmacro! because thought that it was a simpler case