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<jobhdez>
what type of garbage collector does SBCL have? is it still a generational garbage collector? i think someone implemented a new one recently though - a concurrent one
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<contrapunctus>
jobhdez: hayley's working on a parallel (not concurrent) GC, as far as I know
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<beach>
Apparently, both hayley and Katzman are each working on a new garbage collector for SBCL.
<beach>
The one by Katzman is said to be "pauseless".
<hayley>
SBCL has a single-threaded generational copying garbage collector. I've made a parallel generational mostly-non-moving garbage collector, and Doug Katzman reported that he is implementing a non-moving pauseless non-generational garbage collector.
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<aeth>
pauseless as in RT?
<aeth>
real-time
<aeth>
oh no
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<aeth>
parallel + pauseless is basically what you want for, say, games
<aeth>
parallel or pauseless pick one before booting is...
<aeth>
oh no
<hayley>
aeth: Pauseless as in the GC does not have to stop all threads at once.
<aeth>
(games or really anything UI-oriented instead of batch-oriented... just games tend to use more CPU)
<hayley>
I suspect there's an interesting throughput hit though.
<aeth>
yes
<aeth>
afaik the GC tradeoff is do you want to be overall faster (e.g. take 5 minutes to do a task vs 5.1 minutes or whatever) or do you want no pauses in I/O that the user can notice
<aeth>
I am not an expert, though
<hayley>
More or less. But the gap between the pauseless collector and a sequential version is about 12%, and I witnessed non-generational GC being quite a bit slower too (without hard numbers).
<aeth>
well, I hesitated to make up numbers, but the way to get the right answer on the internet is to give the wrong answer
<aeth>
so 5 minutes vs 5.6 minutes (5 minutes 36 seconds)
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<hayley>
I'm also waiting to get results on how much (incremental) compaction affects things.
<hayley>
There's certainly a difference; on my desktop the non-moving GC takes 12.6 seconds to run Regrind in a 1 GB heap, wheres the incrementally compacting GC takes 12.1 seconds. I'm sure the ,(/ (- 12.6 12.1) 12.6) % speedup is that crucial to your video games.
<ixelp>
(/ (- 12.6 12.1) 12.6) => 0.039682537
<hayley>
Eh, that's not a percentage.
<hayley>
And that's with single-threaded GC in both cases; with four threads the results are 10.9 and 10.8 seconds respectively.
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<Josh_2>
Hey :trumpet:
<Josh_2>
Has anyone here tried copilot with common lisp?
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<pkal>
who is trumpet?
<Josh_2>
Whoever
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<pjb>
Josh_2: I use it with any language.
<pjb>
including CL.
<Josh_2>
How do you find it?
<pjb>
it's about the same with all languages. It's a kind of auto-complete. Sometimes it works ok, sometimes it's wrong.
<pjb>
It depends if you're coding something already done, or something new.
<Josh_2>
I got that impression
<Josh_2>
Have you tried using it to write tests?
<pjb>
Not specifically copilot. I tried chatgpt on tests, but it's basically unusable, because they don't reason, and they don't understand the specifications.
<pjb>
But you can use them to help you write them yourself.
<pjb>
For example, I wrote a little access rights module, where the database was abstracted away: the client provides the database. So to test it, I wrote a little in RAM database, and of course, the test must first test it, then test the access rights module. But they cannot make the difference and are completely puzzled by this.
<pjb>
You know how autocomplete on your phone is constantly trying to substitute what you type with its own words. Same with copilot or chatgpt. When they find a good completion, it's ok, but often it's not and you have to write it yourself.
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<Nilby>
pusillanimous (probe-file "") ⇒ NIL
<Nilby>
I should have learnt long ago to never use anything from CLHS chap 19 & 20
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<jcowan>
Nilby: What OS are you using?
<Nilby>
It seems it can work that way on all of '(linux bsd macos windows)
<Nilby>
jcowan: It seems I'm always using multiple OS's
<jcowan>
Hmm. I would expect "" to refer to the working directory on general principles.
<jcowan>
Windows of course is sui generis, and MacOS has all these strange unPosix restrictions.
<Nilby>
It usually does.
<jcowan>
This is SBCL?
<Nilby>
Yes
<Nilby>
Unfortunately the 3 most popular are all "sui generis"
<pjb>
Nilby: 1- use clisp, it's the best implementation.
<Nilby>
wow, clisp's pedanticness wins again
<pjb>
Nilby: 2- if you accept the extensions provided by the other implementation (probe-file "") is not bad. The pathname is merged with *default-pathname-defaults* which COULD be a file pathname anyways, as specified by the standard, and then it's probed, returning nil or true as specified.
<pjb>
So I don't know what you're complaining about. Really.
<pjb>
jcowan: not the working directory, but *default-pathname-defaults*, which could be a file pathname.
<Nilby>
In my replacements (file-exists-p "") is (constantly nil) and a better working equivalent of (probe-file "") is (file-exists-p (current-directory)) which could return nil, specificly in the case I have where the current directory is deleted.
<pjb>
you could post an issue to ccl and other implementations behaving like it.
<pjb>
But at least, sbcl is consistent.
<Nilby>
Sorry, for complaining. I'm used theses problems and have fine workarounds. This whole thing just bit me today in old code where I actually used probe-file.
<pjb>
Now, what you can read from a directory file, we may wonder.
<pjb>
Don't use "" as a namestring, and manage your *default-pathname-defaults*.
<pjb>
And don't pass a non-file pathname to probe-file or open.
<Nilby>
Basically, passing a string to ANY CL thing that takes pathname-designators is trouble.
<pjb>
Well, it could be a logical pathname namestring.
<pjb>
"HOST:DIR;FILE.TYPE" ; note the uppercase!
<Nilby>
I wish I could manage it by (makunbound '*default-pathname-defaults*)
<pjb>
(setf *default-pathname-defaults* (user-homedir-pathname)) is a good solution.
<pjb>
(setf *default-pathname-defaults* #P"") too, if the implementation uses cwd as default default.
<Nilby>
that *default-pathname-defaults* can be sync with the OS is bad enough, but the implementation variance makes useless to me
<kreuter>
All of this is largely quirks of evolution. AFAICT, the people who created CL and ANSI CL more or less envisioned that implementations would offer extensions that were more comprehensive and/or idiomatic for individual operating systems, and that need not involve the pathnames system involved. That hasn't much happened, however.
<Nilby>
In some way I feels *default-pathname-defaults* was envisioning something like a portable $XDG_DATA_DIRS, "\AppData\Local" etc, but it can't work that way in stuck in the past without change
<kreuter>
s/involved//
<Nilby>
I like the concept of portable universal file systems interface that CL was going for.k It just the current
<Nilby>
way is impractical
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<kreuter>
Well, depending on what the scope of each of "portable", "universal", and "file system" are meant to be, there might not be much in the intersection. :-)
<Nilby>
Right now it seems we're blessed/cursed with only two types of file names posix and windows, (if you don't count URLS which try to be a similar universal thing)
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<Nilby>
I mean it's cool that CL could still do VMS, Genera, ITS, names, but sadly there's posix file names it has trouble with.
* Nilby
apologizes for bringing up this issue again.
<kreuter>
Would you entertain the possibility of a CL that could interact with a "local" posix or windows and also the S3 protocol, unifying the naming problems under a pathnames model?
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<Nilby>
Sure. That would be great.
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<Nilby>
Windows pathnames are insane though and include ipv6 addresses.
<Shinmera>
To which gods do I have to pray to get a jpeg-xl implementation (that also isn't as doggone slow as cl-jpeg)
<Nilby>
Shinmera: I think you're the closest to our Fabrice Bellard of Common Lisp
<Shinmera>
I am absolute trash at implementing mathematical algorithms
<Shinmera>
So I do not think that comparison is apt at all
<Shinmera>
All I'm good at is tediously translating C code into Lisp, or tediously writing bindings to a C library.
<Nilby>
I started on a new jpeg library, which you'd think I could do because I wrote one in C, but now I start to fall asleep whenever I read a jpeg spec.
<kreuter>
So suppose you wanted a program to work "equivalently" (for some definition of "equivalent") across local posix/windows and S3. Everybody knows that to for a program on POSIX or Win32, a name like "abc" refers to something according to the process's cwd, so you want your program to be able to accept and do something useful with the name "abc" across posix/windows and S3. Well, S3 doesn't have any intrinsic notion of a "cwd"; i
<kreuter>
to refer to an S3 object, you have to spell out a "whole" name for it at some layer in your stack. What should, say, OPEN do with (make-pathname :host "S3" :name "abc")?
<Shinmera>
Nilby: maybe jpeg-xl will provide the needed amount of freshness, then ;)
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<Nilby>
i really don't understand the more mathy parts, but i like zig zags and cosines, but my CL code is always very slow :(
<Shinmera>
ah :1
<Shinmera>
:(
<Shinmera>
I'd probably try to take inspiration from |3b|'s code like 3bz
<Shinmera>
first you have to design things to have single paths for each storage type you want to support
<Shinmera>
so dispatch can be eliminated
<pjb>
But if you want STRINGs, then there will always be some path that are not accessible from namestrings or pathnames.
<Nilby>
i love my all CL image viewer, but it's the amazingly slow, (except for the parts 3b wrote of course). my dream is one day it'll be fast and format compatible
<kreuter>
@pjb, Sure, though any implementation could adopt something like UTF-8b or Python's surrogateescape encoding to allow a 1-1 correspondence between all octet sequences and Lisp strings.
<Nilby>
pjb: Yes, I especially want an octet filename type to eliminate encoding issues
* Nilby
cheers for UTF-8b !
<pjb>
You won't eliminate them. unix is agnostic on encoding of path. And various toolkits have their own interpretation, using different unicode normalisations etc. It's a mess and will remain a mess.
<pjb>
Also, the POSIX API allows you to access different file systems mounted hierarchically, where different rules apply to different components of a single path!
<pjb>
So if you mount a MS-Windows FS on a macOS FS on a unix FS on a MS-DOS FS, etc (and there are different FS of each OS), your unicode to octet mapping needs to change from one component to the other, with different normalisations, encoding, etc.
<pjb>
A lot of fun could be have implementing a correct such system…
<Nilby>
I think it's too much for me to consider different encoding for each path component. Worse, some things can be just encoded wrong.
<pjb>
exactly!
<pjb>
Notably, on unix systems, the encoding is user-dependent. each user specifies the locale he wants to use, so his own accents can translate differently to octets.
<pjb>
The fun of multi-user unix (or linux) systems…
<Nilby>
pjb: Sounds like you're all set to write us a new groovy universal lispy file system library.
<jackdaniel>
groovyard-of-files
<jackdaniel>
cl-*
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<kreuter>
All those things are true, though IME rarer year by year. Anyhow, ISTM the main things are (a) that the correspondence between the Lispy layer and the outside world be information-preserving and (b) IWBNI the Lispy layer were "onto", i.e., every external name had a representation. ISTM an unavoidable fact that sometimes the Lisp representation will be ugly mojibake, however.
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<NotThatRPG>
Nilby: Fare did a bunch of work in ASDF+UIOP to try to deal with the filesystems that we actually have, as opposed to the Burgess Shale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgess_Shale) level of diversity we had in the days when the ANSI CL spec was written
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<NotThatRPG>
Unfortunately, without support from the implementors, that requires a heroic level of engagement with implementation specific details that no one else has had to date.
<yitzi>
Is there something that you need help with there? I can help with Clasp specific stuff.
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<yitzi>
NotThatRPG: ^
<Nilby>
NotThatRPG: To me, the problem with that is that ASDF can't assume FFI, so it can't get it really right. I know it tries quite hard to work around all the implementations, but I it can be much simplified to just call OS API.
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<jackdaniel>
Nilby: there is osicat that does the right thing on this department
<jackdaniel>
(by using ffi n.b)
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<Nilby>
jackdaniel: Sadly I can't use osicat because it requires C code and external library.
<jackdaniel>
I'm sure that it would be easier to agree on something if there was a document discussing possible solutions. I remember Fare raised an issue with pathnames once against ecl (regarding symlinks), and that was promptly fixed
<jackdaniel>
I don't think that writing wrappers with bunch of #-whatnot will solve anything (even more, it may solidify wrong behavior, because "changing it will break uiop" or something)
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<Nilby>
jackdaniel: I agree a document would be great and #-whatnot should be avoided.
<Nilby>
I fear a standard FFI would have to be in place.
<Nilby>
I started and experiment where CFFI loads without ASDF and a UIOP compatible library uses CFFI.
<Nilby>
but that would throw my code even farther in outer space
<adeht>
Nilby: what external library are you referring to?
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<Nilby>
_death: Am I wrong that it needs a libosicat to work? I haven't looked at it in a while.
<_death>
is that not a library generated by the cffi grovel code?
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<Nilby>
_death: oh, i guess it's just temporary then, but I can't grovel in first place since my environment is just lisp and an OS kernel
<jobhdez>
hayley how was it like implementing the garbage collector for common lisp?
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<_death>
Nilby: I see.. unfortunately I take it the OS doesn't come with introspective capabilities that make grovel unnecessary..
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<jackdaniel>
Nilby: osicat needs grovel because different posix (or windows, I think osicat covers that too) systems vary in behavior
<jackdaniel>
so to have a consistent interface you need to fix these things. similar to the idea behind fe[nl]ix's libfixposix I think
<Nilby>
_death: I wish OS's had introspection, that wasn't just cat /proc/foo.
<_death>
I remember there was osquery though I never used it
<Nilby>
It's okay because I already have a library which has enough that I can write on linux and it sort of works on macos and windows.
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<Gleefre>
I just thought about another feature of symbol links.
<Gleefre>
You can create an alias for lambda
<Gleefre>
(I'm not sure, but seems like there is no other way to create an alias for it, right?)
<bike>
for cl:function, no
<bike>
you can of course do (setf (macro-function whatever) (macro-function 'lambda))
<Gleefre>
It says ; (WHATEVER (X) X) is not a legal function name.
<Gleefre>
Also it seems like it wouldn't work in place where lambda would be the first symbol in the list, like ((λ (x) x) 10)
<Gleefre>
But symbol links gets expanded at read-time, so it would work perfectly :)
<pjb>
it should depend on how the lambda macro is written. Apparently, it uses &whole, so the expansion is not correct.
<pjb>
patch the implementation so it does: (defmacro lambda ((&rest lambda-list) &body body) `(cl:function (cl:lambda (,@lambda-list) ,@body))) and then it'll work.
<Nilby>
Does anyone use a lambda expression in first place outside of generated code?
<Gleefre>
I'm pretty sure that it is the same as doing (defmacro whatever ...)
<Gleefre>
And my-lambda won't work when used with #' syntax or when put as the first element of the list
<Gleefre>
Nilby: I'm pretty sure it is used often, for example as parameter to map* functions
<Gleefre>
Search through quicklisp/dist/quicklisp/software with grep shows many lines
<pjb>
and it's not whatever, in general, it's another-package:lambda
<Shinmera>
Still a lot to do, and many sections that are in need of expansion
<Shinmera>
but it should be much easier to get started now
<Gleefre>
Still can't click "getting started" though
<Gleefre>
But updated documentation looks cool!
<Shinmera>
yeah, still haven't figured out what all should even be in there
<Gleefre>
pjb: sure, its not whatever. But it still doesn't create a full alias.
<Gleefre>
You can't use it with #', you can't use it as an operator
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<agm>
this is probably basic, but does MAKUNBOUND only delete dynamic bindings? sbcl seems to work that way, but clhs doesn't say so, while it talks about global environment in FMAKUNBOUND
<bike>
makunbound makes dynamic variable unbound, yes
<bike>
fmakunbound is pretty much entirely distinct
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<jcowan>
WTF-8 is a low-level solution to the problem of random encodings.
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<agm`>
bike: thanks
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<NotThatRPG>
yitzi: Thanks for the info about clasp. I think clasp is mostly working now, but I will check the issues.
<NotThatRPG>
I keep hoping that I can go to some CL-related meeting (ELS or maybe some day there will be an ILC again, or maybe a North American Lisp Symposium) and have an asdf hackathon. The issues are piling up more than I like.
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<nij->
How to ignore errors but print as much as the information into a stream?
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<nij->
e.g. those info from the debugger
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<hayley>
jobhdez: Tricky, but not for reasons really related to Common Lisp.