<jcowan>
beach: You write that a system class (specifically FUNCTION) cannot be subclassed, but this is incorrect. A built-in class cannot be subclassed, and a system class *may* be a built-in class but does not have to be: it depends on the implementation. It is not, of course, portable to depend on being able to subclass a system class.
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<tevo>
bike: I see, I imagined I was missing something. But the basic approach seems sound, at least?
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<astrophage>
hi everyone
<Lycurgus>
yello astrophage
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<astrophage>
what's up fellow lisp lovers.
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<beach>
astrophage: Lots of progress on several libraries, like Iconoclast, Constrictor, Predicament, Common Macros, Common Boot, etc.
<astrophage>
i just finished my highschool
<beach>
Congratulations!
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<astrophage>
gonna go to college. i plan to be wiz with lisp.
<beach>
Excellent!
<beach>
Oh, so you are new here?
<astrophage>
yes
<astrophage>
just joined for the first time.
<beach>
Welcome then.
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<beach>
Then my list of libraries makes very little sense. Sorry.
<beach>
astrophage: If you are learning Common Lisp, then you might consider joining #clschool.
<beach>
This channel is not really meant for newbie questions, but they are tolerated to some extent. Especially if it is otherwise quiet.
<astrophage>
joined that. thanks for it.
<astrophage>
i was just here to chill and see what goes here.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
astrophage: In this channel, there are often discussions about the standard, and how to interpret certain aspects of it. But there are also discussions about libraries, applications, Common Lisp implementations, etc.
<jackdaniel>
this is also the official place that receives petitions to make a new standard
<Lycurgus>
i thought the cl standard was a never ending story
<aeth>
and since jackdaniel has an @
<aeth>
I guess jackdaniel has the final say
<aeth>
(your client might not render 'op' as @)
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<Gleefre>
jackdaniel: I guess I'm too impatient, so I'm not going to wait for phoe's review to discuss some present issues with PLN...
<jackdaniel>
sure, I've just suggested him because I remember him working on PLN support actively
<Gleefre>
And it would be nice to discuss them with someone :/
<Gleefre>
I guess the biggest issue is with print-read consistency (and was raised more than 10 years ago by |3b| if I understand correctly, when he implemented a prototype for PLN on sbcl, but was never addressed it seems)
<jackdaniel>
at the moment I'm busy, so I can't just jump in into this - sorry. if you don't find someone for discussion until the next week then please let me know and I'll read what you wrote and discuss it with you (if you are interested)
<jackdaniel>
I think that tying loose ends for PLN support and making cdr is a worthwhile effort
<Gleefre>
Sure, don't worry
<Gleefre>
I am posting it here because there are a lot of smart people here... [ also because it is "the official place that receives petitions to make a new standard" ]
<Gleefre>
And I hope to discuss it with at lease some of you all :)
<jackdaniel>
that was a jest :) the (somewhat unnoticed) part of the joke is that I did not mention processing them, only receiving
<Gleefre>
:)
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<jackdaniel>
green_: how is the emscripten support in libffi? I saw sam "yolo" commits so I'm curious
<green_>
I think it's in fine shape, from what I recall. Test results are good. It's being testing in github actions CI.
<green_>
(with different browsers, IIRC)
<jackdaniel>
I see, thanks :)
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<alcor>
green_: Awesome 🥳
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<alcor>
green_: Are there any plans for asdf integration?
<alcor>
green_: Ah, sorry, I misread the README. ocicl already has asdf integration! 😼
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<green_>
Yes, you just asdf:load-system and it works
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<green_>
Please try it out
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<Gleefre>
Hm, could it be possible to have symbol nicknames?
<Gleefre>
Like (add-symbol-nickname '#:x '#:y), then 'x => 'y and (eq 'x 'y) => T
<boigahs_>
Any reason symbol macros couldn't handle the job?
<Gleefre>
It should be possible to export such "pseudo" symbols
<NotThatRPG>
Is it possible to control the output of TRACE on SBCL? Here's why I'm asking: I have code that does unification for logic programming. I would like to trace some of the function calls. Unfortunately, one of the arguments to the functions in question is a UNIFIER, which is very big. I'd really like it for the TRACER to just not print this argument, or print it in abbreviated form.
<NotThatRPG>
For now, I will just use printf debugging, but I wish I could use TRACE for this
<bike>
you might be able to bind *print-length* or *print-level* to abbreviate the object
<Gleefre>
boigahs_: though I guess symbol macros can also be exported. The problem with them is the time when they are expanded. After (define-symbol-macro x y) 'x => 'x, not 'y
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<Gleefre>
Also that creates a new symbol, while that "symbol nickname" (or "symbol link"?) would be resolved at read time, and won't create a new symbol
<Gleefre>
That would make super easy to create an alias
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<jackdaniel>
Gleefre: the key question is what's the practical value of "symbol nicknames"
<jackdaniel>
package local nicknames solve a very real problem of long package names vs short package name conflicts
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<Gleefre>
Well, aliases probably
<Gleefre>
Not sure if they solve it, but suggest you have two functions you want to have in a new package
<pve>
Gleefre: perhaps with a reader extension? Your client would need to use the same extension, I guess.
<Gleefre>
But they have same name
<Gleefre>
Then you could use a symbol nickname/link to have second one in the package under another name
<bike>
package local nicknames are already good for that.
<Gleefre>
That's true
<Gleefre>
But I wouldn't like to create a pln for a single symbol/function though
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<Gleefre>
pve: I don't think a reader extension would be good since the whole goal is to minimize amount of typing, and the reader macro would require 1-2 characters before each such symbol...
<ixelp>
eclector-access/examples/slots-and-accessors-test.lisp at master · pve1/eclector-access · GitHub
<pve>
so you could have any pattern you like, or perhaps maintain a hash-table of aliased symbols
<Gleefre>
I see
<Gleefre>
Seems to be a bit complicated though
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<Gleefre>
And wouldn't that work on implementations using eclector only (SICL I guess?)
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<pve>
I think anyone can use eclector, no?
<Gleefre>
Ok, I see
<yitzi>
That's what the client architecture of Eclector is for.
<nij_>
Hello! Is there anyway to print a log message whenever a dynamic variable is being accessed? (at runtime)
<bike>
No.
<bike>
If you don't mind limiting it to some lexical extent, you could do something with symbol macros. But that wouldn't cover symbol-value or anything.
<Gleefre>
Well, using eclector would make it possible to use it inside the project, I guess
<pve>
Gleefre: let me give you an example, just a second
<Gleefre>
That would be cool :)
<Gleefre>
But it still seems like it won't be possible to export two functions with same name as API of the library
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<pjb>
Gleefre: you mentionned the solution yourself: reader macros.
<pjb>
Gleefre: as you observed, symbol-macros only apply when the symbol is evaluated, not when it's quoted, and of course, it interns the new symbol. With reader macros you can implement whatever algorithm you want.
<pjb>
Gleefre: however, if you want to avoid any distinguishing syntax, ie. if you want something like: (define-symbol-nickname foo "BAR") '(bar foo) --> (foo foo), you will need to put reader macros on a lot of characters (eg. all the initial constituent characters of a symbol nickname, or basically on all the characters).
<pjb>
Gleefre: this may be inefficient (some implementations use a-list for the readtable…
<pjb>
)
<pjb>
Gleefre: as for functions, since they're called, ie. function calls are evaluated, defining aliases with (setf (fdefinition 'alias) (fdefinition 'original)) (alias) instead of (original) is ok. And yes, it allows you to export both. You couldn't export symbol nicknames if they were just reader macros.
<nij->
bike :(
<nij->
How about printing out all symbols that are currently bound dynamically?
<nij->
s/print/collect/
<bike>
(let ((ss ())) (do-all-symbols (s ss) (when (boundp s) (push s ss))))
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<Gleefre>
pjb: Sure, reader macro would not be efficient / easy to write. I though about it more like an extension dual to PLN
<Gleefre>
setf'ing fdefinition has a problem though
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<Gleefre>
On redefining the initial function the alias doesn't change
<ixelp>
eclector-access/examples/symbol-patterns.lisp at master · pve1/eclector-access · GitHub
<pve>
sorry, those examples aren't asdf-ized
<pve>
so you need to manually C-c C-k
<Gleefre>
All righ
<Gleefre>
*right
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<Nilby>
Gleefre: I came up with this bogus alias thing https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/3842#3842 , but I only use it occasionally for temporary compatibility, when I change my mind what I want to call something.
<pve>
Gleefre: there's other cool/silly stuff in the examples/ folder, feel free to browse. Check to org file for an overview:
<ixelp>
eclector-access/eclector-access.lisp at master · pve1/eclector-access · GitHub
<Gleefre>
Nilby: Well, it doesn't resolve multiple problems... :/
<pve>
Gleefre: so basically hijack "all" characters and do your own thing, like pjb said
<Gleefre>
pve: Well, then it only works on standard characters... :/
<Gleefre>
Right now I gonna try to make a prototype on a SBCL's fork and see if it will go well
<pve>
Gleefre: but you get to decide on the character set
<pve>
if you need more that the standard chars, feel free to add whatever you need
<Gleefre>
(I doubt I can define a reader macro on all unicode charecters... :/)
<pve>
so you need them all?
<Nilby>
yet another thing that could likely be easily done by *read-intern*
<Gleefre>
pve: For a prototype not really, but it just isn't nice...
<Gleefre>
Nilby: what do you mean?
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<Nilby>
a reader patch I use on sbcl/ccl that is very simple but enables all sorts of useful things. *read-intern* can be set to function that replaces cl:intern in the reader
<Gleefre>
I see
<Gleefre>
Looks like that still would be hard to make it play nice with all sort of `use-package` and `export` as well as it won't affect the cl:intern / cl:find-symbol itself
<pve>
Gleefre: I should point out that it works on any form that *starts* with a standard-char, so "(å ä ö • σ)" should work fine
<Nilby>
typical use of it is dynamic binding like the other *read-<x>* variables
<Nilby>
like changing the global binding *read-base* is trouble
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<Nilby>
the cool thing about *read-intern* is that you can make it work however you want with packages, because like intern it takes a package
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