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<ika_>
hi folks
<beach>
Hello ika_.
<ika_>
what is the difference between (funcall 'func-name params...) and (funcall #'func-name params...) ？
<beach>
It differs when func-name is the name of a local function.
<beach>
Introduced by flet or labels.
<ika_>
oh yeah i got it
<beach>
Then the first form refers to the global function with that name, and the second form refers to the local function with that name.
<beach>
ika_: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<ika_>
so the former passes a quoted symbol and the latter passes a function object, so if the symbol is bound to another thing in the local scope if might return different result while the latter always returns the correct(meant) one
<ika_>
beach: yes i am
<beach>
Welcome!
<ika_>
thanks!
<beach>
Sort of...
<beach>
FUNCALL takes a "function designator" as an argument. So #'NAME is shorthand for (FUNCTION NAME), and FUNCTION is a special operator that returns the function with the name NAME.
<beach>
And if FUNCALL instead receives a function name (instead of a function) it looks up that name in the global environment.
<ika_>
oh it looks it up the global environment?
<beach>
It has no other choice since the lexical run-time environment is not available to it.
<beach>
FUNCALL is a global function, and all it has access to is the global environment.
<ika_>
huh
<ika_>
interesting
<beach>
Lexical environments are available only at compile time. It was done this way so that it would be easier for people who implement Common Lisp to write optimizing compilers.
<beach>
You can perhaps appreciate this better if, instead of (FUNCALL 'NAME) you would write (FUNCALL (READ)). I mean 'NAME is just a form that evaluates to the symbol NAME, and you can substitute any form that evaluates to a name.
<beach>
Then you can see that the symbol given to FUNCALL can be known only at run-time.
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<ika_>
oh
<ika_>
i get it now
<ika_>
im gonna go test some more cases
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<ika_>
thanks
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<beach>
Pleasure.
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<Shinmera>
aeth: I implemented v-clip exactly according to the original (absolutely awful) C++ implementation and I get the same results in both.... but the results are wrong for some cases
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<Shinmera>
Anyway, now to translate ~6k lines of C++ for convex decomposition :u
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<beach>
Wow! Good luck!
<Shinmera>
Thanks, I'll need it :/
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<Shinmera>
The nice thing at least is that I don't need to worry about allocation with this, since the algorithm will only be run statically. Unlike the collision detection stuff, which has to avoid producing garbage :/
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<Shinmera>
Doing all this stuff one of my biggest wishes is that there were an easier way to do stack allocation. To do it at all you have to very carefully design the interfaces and very specifically massage the construction point (you have to call the structure constructor directly).
<Shinmera>
I understand why things are the way they are, I'm just shouting at the clouds, I suppose.
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<mgl>
I seem to recall that there were some guidelines on when to directly expose a generic function and when to put a normal function in front for more flexibility (e.g. to be able to add keyword args without having to change all method definitions or to require &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS).
<mgl>
There was a question in there, but I ran out of #\?.
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<beach>
You shouldn't have to add &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS to method definitions.
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<beach>
My memory says that it is as if methods are called with :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS T.
<beach>
Of course, if your generic function initially does not allow keyword arguments at all, then you need to add &KEY or &REST to methods.
<beach>
All this from memory; I may have gotten some things wrong.
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<Shinmera>
you need either &key or &rest in the method lambda list if the generic function has &key
<beach>
So my memory was right.
<Shinmera>
methods can add additional keys on their own that aren't part of the generic function, but *must* allow all keys that are part of the generic function.
<Shinmera>
methods can also specify &allow-other-keys on their own to simply ignore keys they don't care about. If the generic function has &allow-other-keys, all methods implicitly allow other keys, too.
<Shinmera>
whether they have &allow-other-keys or not
<beach>
Hmm.
<paulapatience>
mgl: If you want do dispatch on keyword or optional arguments, you need to make them required in the generic function and write a nongeneric function that supplies the defaults (if that was the question)
<paulapatience>
s/do dispatch/to dispatch/
<mgl>
The whole &key bit was just an example of what I vaguely recall these aforementioned guidelines were about.
<beach>
Shinmera: Right. So a method can have &REST and still accept keyword arguments. Thanks for the details.
<Shinmera>
yes
<mgl>
To ask the original question differently, do you sometimes put a plain function in front a generic function for the flexibility it provides? If so, under what circumstances?
<Shinmera>
notably if the generic function does not have &allow-other-keys, using &rest in a method that just delegates to another function via apply, you will probably need to add &key &allow-other-keys to avoid it erroring due to unaccepted keys.
<Shinmera>
mgl: I don't think I've ever done so, not with the same signature.
<Shinmera>
sometimes it can be useful to have control inversion by flipping the order, allowing overriding in more complicated ways, but I've never done so purely for "internal organisation" as you seem to be thinking about
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<mgl>
I'm thinking about how to future proof a design. I'd like to have the option of adding arguments to the function without requiring or even *allowing* methods to have keys. Hence, having a normal function that calls a generic function is an obvious choice, but the resulting parallel definitions have a cumbersome feel to them, and I'm wondering if
<mgl>
there are other factors that would make me climb down from the fence (on one side).
<Shinmera>
I like not thinking about things I can't predict too much :)
<Shinmera>
I'm also a bit confused about your application. If you allow users to define their own methods than either way they'll have to update *something* or it won't integrate properly anymore. If you don't, then who cares, you can add &key to the generic function and internal methods yourself. The calling code doesn't need to be updated.
<mgl>
I wouldn't even consider this scheme if it's all code that *I* can change, but exposing an interface introduces a lot of friction.
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<Shinmera>
If you expect to possibly extend things with keywords later, just slap the &key on the generic function now and be done with it
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<mgl>
We kind of got bogged down in discussion of the specifics of keyword arguments, because those are the only things that came to my mind when I asked the original question. I'm aware of the possible choices there, but they have drawbacks. Maybe there are no other considerations to have, but those are what I'm looking for.
<mgl>
Sorry about the vagueness.
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<Josh_2>
hi hi :trumpet: Is #'change-class a particularly intense task? If there are no new initargs and the new class is a direct subclass?
<Josh_2>
In context the slowest part would be grabbing the info from the db rather than maybe performing a change class at the final step
<Josh_2>
Okay from what I can see it makes almost no difference whatsoever
<Josh_2>
maybe few more cycles here and there :shrug:
<bike>
it usually requires conses, and implementations may not bother optimizing out the initargs check
<bike>
requires consing*
<Josh_2>
Okay :thumbsup:
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<Josh_2>
I dont think its going to matter. Less effort to just change class right at the end than fiddle with my database
<bike>
as usual, profile, premature optimization is the root of all evil, etc. i wouldn't be surprised if a database query will be more important for performance
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<Josh_2>
Yep
<Josh_2>
I think you are right
<Josh_2>
Although now I have to have my <class> <class testing> <class deleted> <class testing deleted> :joy:
<Josh_2>
Nothing more methods wont fix :joy:
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