<farkuhar>
ppetrov^: SiFuh just informed you I wasn't here
<SiFuh>
ppetrov^: farkuhar just informed you that I had informed him that I had informed you that he was not here. Now he is here
<farkuhar>
ppetrov^: Did you patch the seaview code so it doesn't think 1.3.11 >= 1.4.0?
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: You are in trouble
<SiFuh>
[14 58 19] [r0ni> he is right about the docs tho, its designed so one would completely miss steps, I get that. people prob want a numbered list instead or available
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: I haven't listened to the podcast yet.
<SiFuh>
It sucks
<farkuhar>
The arrangement of the handbook was established long before I made any revisions. I just edited a few sections so they would align with the changes introduced in CRUX 3.7
<farkuhar>
And if people wanted a numbered list, the wiki has some QuickInstallReference pages (admittedly they date back to the CRUX 2.* era)
<SiFuh>
Excuse, excuses
<farkuhar>
The reviewer's first mention of the handbook occurs within the first 5 minutes, and it's positive. I have to listen longer to hear anything negative on that front.
<SiFuh>
He's a soy boy
<SiFuh>
He says negative stuff then tries to soten it with nancy talk
<SiFuh>
soften
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<farkuhar>
Approaching the 11-minute mark, he starts criticising the setup-chroot and setup scripts for not being "very robust" (if you run them at the wrong time, it can break your system). It reminds me of SiFuh's comment more generally, that CRUX scripts are not written to anticipate every eventuality (rc and udev in particular).
<SiFuh>
Udev? You adding words into my sentences
<farkuhar>
Around the 14-minute mark, he explains the formatting issues in the handbook. Specifically, the use of bulleted lists for steps that are supposed to be performed in sequence (which would normally deserve a numbered list). And when the user *does* have a choice among different paths to follow, it's easy to read too quickly and attempt the steps in one of the paths not taken.
<SiFuh>
ppetrov^: farkuhar is going to narrate the entire thing now
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: sorry, I was looking at the commit d1ff6504e88b99aa45abc8ce48c600eba07c2b07 which moved some of the mounting logic from eudev to core/rc
<farkuhar>
ppetrov^: Speaking of formatting decisions, is it common in biology papers for authors to capitalize Rubisco (the enzyme that catalyses the first step of carbon fixation)? It's not a brand or trademark, right?
<zorz>
farkuhar: without --enable-apparmor cause you dont have apparmor
<zorz>
firejail firefox | firejail x|mu|zath pdf
<farkuhar>
At 16:25 he boasts about compiling the kernel "8 times in one day"
<zorz>
time is precious... we dont have enough time... and you spent it listenning to soy boys
<farkuhar>
One minute later, I'm still waiting for him to notice SiFuh's modular kernel config provided on the ISO.
<SiFuh>
He doesn't and I was pissed off when he started talking about GRUB.
<farkuhar>
zorz: Ever heard of multitasking?
<zorz>
this is from the people that use fzf, bat, fgrep
<zorz>
stupid rust communists
<zorz>
farkuhar: yes i heard.
<farkuhar>
zorz: Then what's wrong with listening to soy boys with one part of the brain, and working on something else with the rest of the brain?
<zorz>
half of the brain get over heated frustrated
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: RUBISCO? That should be written as RuBisCO
<farkuhar>
In the 28th minute he resumes complaining about how the handbook is written. He's "not a fan of the passive voice" and prefers to be told exactly what to do, not what could be done depending on a user's circumstances. It reminds me of the tension between imperative and declarative styles of configuration.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: And suggesting to install slackware's package manager is bullshit.
<zorz>
oooooooooo he complained about the handbook?
<SiFuh>
zorz: No, he was complaing about farkuhar
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: What pissed you off about his GRUB comments? That he deemed it marginally easier than SYSLINUX?
<zorz>
SiFuh: farkuhar is not goin to sleep tonight
<farkuhar>
Or would a Slackware user prefer that LILO be available instead?
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: That he went straight to GRUB being the default
<zorz>
tell him to try slack 14, has no pam:P
<zorz>
in slackware it took them how many years to move from 14 to 15 because of linux-pam....
<zorz>
We adopted PAM (finally)
<zorz>
as projects we needed dropped support for pure shadow passwords.
<farkuhar>
In the 34th minute he complains that CRUX packaging doesn't have enough templates to handle common adjustments; each maintainer comes up with a new way to solve the same problem.
<farkuhar>
In the 37th minute he boasts about having run slackpkg on Debian. He doesn't seem patient enough to try learning a new distro on its own terms, he quickly reaches for something more familiar.
* zorz
listens │ 3 │ MIX 94.5 FM Malaysia │ Malaysia │
<zorz>
gay music
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I don't even think he is qualified to have an opinion. He is a distro whore like zorz
<SiFuh>
zorz: No, fuck off. I already have farkuhar pissing me off with running comentaries. I don't need another person trying to piss me off.
<zorz>
hahahahahahaa
<farkuhar>
zorz: Does slack 14 still get updates?
<zorz>
farkuhar: i think you should ask ppetrov^
<SiFuh>
HAHAHAHA "I went to my doctor and asked him who his doctor is. So now I switched doctors."
<zorz>
hahahahaah stupido
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: SBo packages
<farkuhar>
zorz: Which projects "dropped support for pure shadow passwords" and hence prompted the inclusion of linux-pam in Slack 15?
<farkuhar>
In the 48th minute he finally describes the "steal from the AUR" method that beerman employs with so many of his ports. It comes too late, after he's already pushed his listeners to try using alien packaging systems (slackpkg, pkgsrc) on CRUX.
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<farkuhar>
When we get around to revising the handbook for CRUX 3.8, we can introduce numbered lists in one of two ways: native PmWiki syntax (https://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/TextFormattingRules#BulletedLists) or Markdown syntax (now that beerman has installed a Markdown plugin for PmWiki).
<SiFuh>
We?
<remiliascarlet>
farkuhar: In my opinion, /bin, /sbin, and /lib shall be reserved to statically linked binaries or libraries for rescue purposes, just like how the BSD's do it.
<remiliascarlet>
zorz: Debian is fake and gay, so of course they'll switch to Gayland!
<farkuhar>
remiliascarlet: So you're agreeing that meritocracy didn't prevail in the case of UsrMerge, although it does describe Devuan governance in other decisions?
<remiliascarlet>
farkuhar: As SiFuh, also known as SiFuh-Jungle said, Trump supporters didn't invade the US Capitol, it were Antifa rioters who did so after the DC police allowed them in. This hoax has been called out on day 0 already, it's this obvious.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: I'm just following zorz's example, "We adopted PAM (finally)", as if zorz was personally involved in the Slack 14 -> 15 migration.
<farkuhar>
But zorz has been known to mix up pronouns. Witness his invitation for us to `rm -rf /home/zorz/.local/share/pipx/venvs` whenever we mess up.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh: That's because AI are just glorified chatbots, something that already existed all the way back in the 1990s.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh: Tell ChatGPT something bad about LGBT if you want it to reduce your IQ points by a 100 per sentence.
<farkuhar>
1990s? How about 1960s? (ELIZA, the natural language processing program created by J. Weizenbaum at MIT)
<remiliascarlet>
farkuhar: "although it does describe Devuan governance in other decisions?" It could.
<farkuhar>
remiliascarlet: It could? Sounds like a weaker version of what you wrote on Saturday, "Devuan came out as meritocratic, just like OpenBSD, CRUX, and OpenMandriva."
<remiliascarlet>
I wasn't aware of the UsrMerge thing, didn't even know what that was until you explained it.
<remiliascarlet>
But doing something stupid like that could possibly mean they'll fuck up again later.
<remiliascarlet>
I can understand merging /usr and /usr/local, since Linux doesn't have first party software other than the kernel itself anyway.
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: I find talking to women usually reduces IQ points. Biggest mistake I ever did was get married.
<remiliascarlet>
So I'm reducing your IQ points?
<SiFuh>
I think we all consider you a man to be honest
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: contrib and user's repo ports should use /usr/local
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: The three stages that the BSDs use is much better. But ever since Linux faggots got lazy and started making one giant / partition. It seems that was also around the time they just merged everything together between / /usr and /usr/local like one big shit pile of a hill.
<remiliascarlet>
You mean the many separate partitions on OpenBSD? I've only seen this to be a thing on OpenBSD.
<remiliascarlet>
FreeBSD and NetBSD put everything on 1 partition by default.
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: No. We use to make separate partitions in Linux.
<remiliascarlet>
And separating /, /usr, and /usr/local in the BSD's makes sense (and NetBSD additionally has /usr/pkg too), because the core developers of each BSD makes their own software.
<remiliascarlet>
Even macOS separates /usr from /usr/local.
<remiliascarlet>
Although you can't modify /usr in macOS at all, because Apple.
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: Go find an old Linux distro like Mandrake for example from the year 2000 and try installing it. You will see what I mean.
<remiliascarlet>
Yes, I know what you mean.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh: By the way, you know that men say to each other "Dude!", right? I've seen somebody say "Dude in drag!" to a transformer a few days ago.
<remiliascarlet>
The transformer was mad.
<SiFuh>
I say dude to women as well.
<SiFuh>
Sometimes dudette ;-)
<SiFuh>
You have dude's in drag in Tokyo?
<remiliascarlet>
If you count westerners, then there's a few of them.
<SiFuh>
We have them here, but very rare to see. They are also quite shy. That is because they don't last long in public if they start preaching.
<SiFuh>
I have seen many dudes in drag in the US. Never bothered me at all. But after that fucking moron Obama came in, then legalized poofter marriage and the liberals started swinging from the chandeliers and preaching it. It was clearly obvious that what Obama had done was actually a bad thing for them.
<SiFuh>
And to make it worse, the dudes in drag went to the extreme thinking it mattered and turned many people against them. They should never have gone with it.
<SiFuh>
Anyway, what is done is done.
<remiliascarlet>
The reason why they bother me is because they came into things like Unix, open source, gaming, movies, and all the other stuff apart from light novels and manga, and forced it all to turn into LGBT propaganda.
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: Heard a good one. "The election divided us here in the US. But it got me thinking. Hillary is 70, Trump is 70. So I told me grandmother that there is plenty of work out there for her. No need to be sitting a rocking chair looking all cute."
<SiFuh>
"I went to my doctor and asked him who his doctor is. So now I switched doctors." — Rahn Hortman
<zorz>
remiliascarlet: they switched allready... but they dont know it yet. debian has strong woke angenda.
<SiFuh>
zorz: Stop zorzing remiliascarlet. She was the first to tell you.
<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: zorz probably recieved too many injections in the army so his memory is kind of fscked up.
<zorz>
SiFuh: why you intervene?
<zorz>
:pP
<zorz>
Am I talkin to you?
<zorz>
Does remiliascarlet needs a lawyer? :pP
<SiFuh>
Why are you zorzin'? Your bad habits are rubbing off onto remiliascarlet because she was zorzin' me earlier
<SiFuh>
[21 50 24] [remiliascarlet> SiFuh: That's because AI are just glorified chatbots, something that already existed all the way back in the 1990s.
<SiFuh>
She forgets how old I am I guess. So I took it as a compliment :-P
<ukky>
farkuhar: replace extension to md5 or sha256 to download checksum file(s)
<zorz>
hahaahaha
<zorz>
SiFuh: remiliascarlet was zorzin you??? That the way to go girl!
<zorz>
zorz, is busy,, bybit hacked, 1.4B... and then withdraws of 4+B... and I am with the finger on the trigger.
<SiFuh>
zorz: Didn't think you had a trigger with jeans as tight as you wear
<zorz>
Hugeeeeeeee fingerrrrrrrrrrrr
<zorz>
SiFuh: by the way, best engine, infrastructure... from all exchanges is bybit. I was waiting to see when it will go offline... and it did not.
<SiFuh>
zorz: Wrong. JZ1 and JZ2 are the best engines
<SiFuh>
Or I should say 1JZ and 2JZ
<farkuhar>
ukky: Okay, I've downloaded your ISO and checksums, but it will take some time before I'm able to write to a bootable medium and test the install process.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Me too because I am still backing up... slowly... my old system.
<ukky>
farkuhar: test it at your own pace and schedule. I will try to test it too.
<ukky>
farkuhar: Yes, the commit above will make it easier to use alternative device manager, or even static /dev entries. eudev should not touch mountpoints /dev not /run
<farkuhar>
I wasn't trying to be annoying by giving a live narration as I listened to the Hacker Public Radio podcast shared by luna. I meant to create a rough index, so that later listeners could navigate quickly to specific segments of the hour-long podcast, rather than hearing the entire thing just to extract one or two comments.
<ukky>
s|/dev not /run|/dev, nor /run|
<farkuhar>
Still no comment from ppetrov^ about the HPR podcast reviewing CRUX? I'm curious whether ppetrov^s Slackware experience would make it easier for him to empathize with some of the points raised in the podcast. Plus, ppetrov^ wrote his own CRUX review several years ago.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Maybe he doesn't care ;-)
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: Easier explanation is that he's AFK
<SiFuh>
Or maybe the keyboard is away from ppetrov^
<farkuhar>
I've done that before: tuned into the conversation through the whitequark log, on a touchscreen device with no easy way of contributing back.
<ukky>
Whether handbook should have numbered list or simple bullet point is not important at all and is a matter of personal preferences.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I prefer it. But that is my preference.
<SiFuh>
The manual is fine otherwise. My Colombian friend was confused with it as a first time installer because it wasn't as direct as he expected.
<ukky>
For spoon-feeding, probably a numbered list is preferred
<SiFuh>
He's now using void. He said CRUX can fuck off.
<SiFuh>
He's been using linux longer than most people here so I find it funny that he isn't as adept at it as he should be.
<ukky>
Using Linux and knowing how Linux works are not related
<SiFuh>
He's a former arch linux user
<farkuhar>
The formatting could be improved, when back-to-back sections provide the steps of mutually-exclusive choices that the user might make (GRUB, in UEFI mode; GRUB, in legacy mode; ...). Readability is impacted here by the decision to put everything into a linear document, with no interactivity allowing the user to expand only the section that applies to them.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: I myself would like to see ALL documentation in one manual. Rather than multiple documents spread throughout the website.
<farkuhar>
It would be nice to include a flowchart graphic at the beginning, with links to the individual sections. That way the reader could easily identify when they're in a section for which multiple alternatives exist (and they don't need to follow the steps from those alternative sections).
<farkuhar>
I don't think my Wiki editing privileges extend to the upload of graphics onto crux.nu. At best I could self-host a flowchart somewhere else, and write the wiki syntax that pulls up the image from that remote URL.
<SiFuh>
CRUX doesn't have that much farkuhar so it wouldn't be intimidating. Besides, my Colombian friend has read that entire manual already :-P
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<zorz>
farkuhar: put chatgpt to write a handbook
<SiFuh>
zorz: Why? It's stupid
<zorz>
no man... for easiness... give the allready handbook... and ask it to add the things.
<zorz>
check it, correct
<SiFuh>
zorz: Okay, listen to this then
<SiFuh>
Well read it
<SiFuh>
ChatGPT gave to me a latteral puzzle to solve. I solved it straight away. Then ChatGPT thanked me for giving it the problem and the solution even though it gave me the problem to begin with.
<zorz>
SiFuh: ==> < SiFuh> He's now using void. He said CRUX can fuck off. <== I know why...
<zorz>
SiFuh: what is the connection of a lateral problem.... with a simple usage essay
<zorz>
since.... they learned archwiki, debian manual.
<SiFuh>
Out of over 300 latteral problems. Only two I can't solve because ChatGPT was stupid. And after it gave the answer, I had to tell it off.
<SiFuh>
Something dumb like this "A man is found dead in the room. It has no windows and doors and it is locked" "Err how is it locked then?" "Okay the man is found dead in a room with no windows and doors. How did he die?" "Suffocated?" "No, he was hit in the head by a baseball bat" "What the fuck?"
<SiFuh>
And I'd say it guesses the answer for maybe 54% of what I give it.
<SiFuh>
zorz: Here is one today I gave it. "A woman calls her husband and says my car won't start. The engine is flooded. Why?"
<SiFuh>
Answer "She's in the river"
<SiFuh>
It took 9 goes to give up. Never figured out that flooded doesn't mean fuel.
<SiFuh>
A simple one "A man throws a curve ball. He get's hit in the face with ball. Why?" The answer was "The batter hit it and the pitcher didn't duck"
<SiFuh>
ChatGPT wouldn't shut up about throwing a ball into a mirror.
<SiFuh>
Apple Goes MAGA: $500 Billion Investment Plan In America, 20,000 New Jobs
<zorz>
yes
<zorz>
they will stop manufacturing chips in asia.
<zorz>
all of them
<zorz>
nvidia
<zorz>
but quantum computers , they say moscow is ahead
<SiFuh>
It is
<zorz>
cool
<zorz>
when soviet cpu? wanna run linux with soviet cpu.
<zorz>
heh
<zorz>
SiFuh: do you know if russian society has the same hype for openai as western and asia?
<SiFuh>
Yes
<SiFuh>
zorz: They have many CPUs
<SiFuh>
I am also wanting
<SiFuh>
AI existed in Russia long before OpenAI
<SiFuh>
Their military system is based on it.
<ppetrov^>
farkuhar, SiFuh -- yes I was not here
<SiFuh>
ppetrov^: Liar
<zorz>
russians implanted a spy hear... ppetrov^ .
<zorz>
here.
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: ppetrov^ just informed us he was not here
<ppetrov^>
ppetrov^ just informed us he *had not been* here
<ppetrov^>
jeez, do i have to teach you guys English?!
<farkuhar>
About the CRUX handbook ... there's a lot of repetition between sections 3.2 and 3.3; maybe we can eliminate 3.3 entirely (or fold it somehow into 3.2).
<farkuhar>
Section 3.2.1 (Installing a Bootloader) ... I know SiFuh prefers to have all the documentation in one place, but maybe it would be less confusing for new users if we presented only one option, and referred them to an appendix for the less-common bootloader setups.
<farkuhar>
We already relegate the EFI stub instructions to an appendix; why not move the instructions for other bootloader setups to an appendix too?
<ukky>
farkuhar: It is less convenient to jump to last section, then back, in case user prefers an alternative bootloader. It is tidier if alternatives are grouped in a single section. But again, this is just personal preference.
<farkuhar>
ukky: The way that PmWiki numbers these sections, it might mislead the reader into thinking that all the subsubsubsections must be followed in order (think: numbered list versus bulleted list). If we could override PmWiki on the subsubsubsection numbering, then they would appear unambiguously as alternatives.
<ukky>
Wiki might just indicate: Skip to section 3.2.1.4 if you intend to use syslinux in legacy boot mode.
<farkuhar>
Anyway, it's not just the HPR podcaster who had trouble following the handbook, there's also SiFuh's Colombian friend (who probably has something more useful to say than "now using void, CRUX can fuck off.")
<farkuhar>
Section 5.6 can be removed entirely, now that Pkgfile has its own man-page. Then we could move section 5.3 (prt-get frontend) to the end of chapter 5, to keep all the pkgutils documentation together (and presented first).
<farkuhar>
Large parts of Chapter 6 (Ports System) can be eliminated altogether. Since the listing and diff functionality is done more efficiently by prt-get, those sections can be dropped, leaving only a few sections which might as well be folded into the Chapter 5 discussion of pkgutils.