<SiFuh>
Last night I sleep on the foot path next to Maybank at Bukit Bintang with the other street people
<SiFuh>
7 am the security guard came and said "SiFuh, (He knows me) the bank is preparing to open" I said "Ahh, okay. Thanks brother"
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<farkuhar>
The core/kmod Pkgfile takes a convoluted route to delivering man-pages. Why go to the trouble of running ./configure --disable-manpages, and then write *three* additional commands to populate $PKG/usr/share/man/man{5,8}? It would have been easier to drop those manual 'install' commands, and just call ./configure without --disable-manpages.
<farkuhar>
My first thought was that --disable-manpages might have the side effect of not trying to regenerate man/*.{5,8} using scdoc, thereby guaranteeing that the upstream-provided man-pages are left intact, regardless of whether the user happens to have the scdoc conversion tool installed.
<farkuhar>
Heh, even with contrib/scdoc installed, and ./configure called without --disable-manpages, there's no attempt to regenerate man/*.{5,8} --- all of whose timestamps are later than the corresponding *.{5,8}.scd file, at least in the latest (kmod-33) tarball.
<farkuhar>
It looks a lot cleaner when you don't try to micro-manage the man-page installation: https://0x0.st/8Py_.txt
<farkuhar>
ukky: That makes sense. But lately the tarball has been providing pre-generated man-pages, so the --disable-manpages option is not having any effect at compile-time, whether or not the user has scdoc in $PATH. And the effect at install-time is to necessitate additional `install -d` and `install -m 0644` commands in the Pkgfile.
<ukky>
farkuhar: afaik, autoconf-based projects do not re-create all targets if they already exist and timestamp is greater than the source. Try 'touch' the source of manpage file and see if '--enable-manpages' breakes the build.
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<farkuhar>
ukky: yes, the build breaks if scdoc is not installed and --disable-manpages is not given, regardless of the timestamp comparison. I now see that ./configure doesn't actually have fallback behaviour to rely on the pre-generated man-pages, if scdoc is not found in $PATH.
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<farkuhar>
It would seem easy enough to code for the absence of scdoc, and just rely on the pre-generated man-pages in that case. Why nobody ever bothered to add that logic to the configure script?
<farkuhar>
Anyway, I'd love to hear more about what ukky sees as the flaws in the meson build system. If meson was meant to be such an improvement over autotools, how did they go astray in pursuit of that goal?
<ukky>
farkuhar: ideally, ./configure from tarball cannot be used to build a project. ./configure has to be re-generated from ./configure.ac on a specific system.
<ukky>
farkuhar: Re: meson, it is a Python-based tool, for once. Plus, what is the point of inventing new tool to track timestamps and dependencies when make(1) does a perfect job?
<farkuhar>
ukky: Don't let zorz hear you talking so negatively about Python.
<ukky>
farkuhar: zorz: please don't get me wrong. Python is nice language for private scripts, like what zorz is doing. But using Python in install, deployment, build systems is just wrong. It will be bloated from the beginning and you need half of the full-blown OS installed to build a tiny project.
<ukky>
Each task should be handled with appropriate tool, but it seems I am zorzing here.
<ukky>
make(1) is bleeding/crazy fast handling strings, timestamps and dependencies.
<ukky>
make(1) lacks built-in math operations, but there open-source macros that add math operations to make(1) using strings and it is pretty fast.
<ukky>
cmake, another project management tool, is just overbloated and limited to building targets for one (single) CPU arch, i.e. on amd64 you cannot build arm64 targets plus native amd64 targets in a single run, or arm64 and arm32 in a single build.
<ukky>
cmake was created on R&D grant, to accomodate Microsoft Visual Studio users so that they continue using MS Windows to participate in open-source projects.
<farkuhar>
It's possible to fool the ./configure from the kmod tarball, forcing it to install the pre-generated manpages even if you don't have scdoc in $PATH. Just pass an explicit path, and it will skip the test. For example, SCDOC=$(prt-get isinst scdoc && echo "/usr/bin/scdoc" || echo "/bin/cat") ./configure --prefix=/usr --bindir=/sbin --sysconfdir=/etc --with-xz --with-zlib --with-zstd
<farkuhar>
--with-rootlibdir=/lib
<ukky>
farkuhar: if scdoc is _not_ installed, the next check should be whether man-pages are already pre-generated, otherwise footprint will be missing them, maybe even 'touch' man-pages to make sure they are not being rebuilt.
<farkuhar>
The hack with SCDOC=$( ) relies on the timestamps of the man/*.{5,8} actually being newer than the corresponding *.scd files, which is true for the kmod-33 tarball, but might be violated in subsequent tarballs. By the time you add the 'touch' commands to ensure that the timestamp comparison is satisfied, your Pkgfile is no less cluttered than the current approach (installing the man-pages with three
<farkuhar>
separate commands, after `make DESTDIR=$PKG install`).
<ukky>
that's the point. It is better to either never install man-pages if kmod needs to avoid dependency on scdoc, or add dependency on scdoc and add '-enable-manpages'.
<ukky>
Same thing applies to ./configure, as it may be missing in tarball and build system can re-generate it from ./configure.ac
<farkuhar>
Well, scdoc is not currently a core port, so it's against distro policy for a core port to depend on it. The upstream project will probably keep providing pre-generated manpages, though, so it shouldn't be a problem to fool the configure script with some dummy value for SCDOC, as long as `make` doesn't then try to use that program to overwrite the pre-generated manpages.
<ukky>
In that case it should be okay to have '[ -e man/*.[58] ] && install' in Pkgfile, to cut some slack for core/kmod. But, in theory, that is wrong.
<farkuhar>
As for why I asked the other day about threading MUAs and their reliance on the Subject field ... my inbox had two separate emails from my boss, one a department-wide announcement of free food, and the other containing private feedback. I replied to the latter, but changed the subject line to match the former email, and then addressed the private feedback below his quoted words. Since he's more
<farkuhar>
accustomed to reading top-posted replies, he might not even see the second half of my reply, even if his threading MUA associates it with the private feedback.
<farkuhar>
In other words, he might only read the part I wrote above his quoted email, a generic "thank you for leaving free food in the copy room."
<ukky>
If you changed To: and Subject:, your private reply might still be threaded under public thread as your headers would still contain public References: and/or In-reply-To:
<farkuhar>
No, the References: and In-reply-To: would definitely refer to his email with well-meaning career advice directed at me personally. If his MUA is going to do any threading, it would link my reply to that email, not to the announcement of free food. The only thing I changed was the Subject line, matching the announcement of free food, so that I could hide my cynical response to his career advice
<farkuhar>
under a generic "thank you for bringing food to share."
<ukky>
zorz: not yet, I'm building NetBSD userland from scratch just to have basic X11 working. CVS would be one of the things worth investigation, but right now I can get by with git instead of cvs repo.
<zorz>
okay
<ukky>
It seems Firefox source became more resource-hungry these days. Building it on Xeon 35XX, 4C8T, 16G RAM, 10G swap, and it has been building for 1 hour (and going) and max swap use was 3G so far.
<zorz>
holly shit... i think me to with 16g ram i am on reds
<zorz>
ukky: do you use clang?
<ukky>
zorz: it's a mix, NetBSD can have both at the same time, depending on port/package build requirement.
<zorz>
i build firefox, with alsa, lto, clang... as the have it in void. i could not build it with pgo, i think because of ram
<zorz>
i have disabled dbus, wayland, pulse, pipewire, all this crap.
<ukky>
zorz: my build also has dbus/wayland/pulse/pipewire disabled
<zorz>
cool
<zorz>
if you have dbus enabled, in order to open new pages you need to run dbus daemon
<zorz>
fuckin hell
<zorz>
135 works fast... Iam ok with it.
<ukky>
Firefox might launch dbus as user anyway, without dbus (daemon) being run as root
<zorz>
yes
<zorz>
just compiled 6.12.13 time to reboot be back
<SiFuh>
zorz: Some one put Ritalin in my Sake today
<SiFuh>
And I know it wasn't the sexy Japanese lady.
<SiFuh>
I think it was the guy.
<SiFuh>
I drove back home fucked, seriously fucked.
<zorz>
hahahaha
<zorz>
what is Ritalin?
<zorz>
i get the picture but what is it?
<SiFuh>
Date rape drug
<ukky>
SiFuh: It was just 1.5 liters of Sake, nothing was added.
<SiFuh>
It was 4 shots
<ukky>
and that's it?...
<SiFuh>
I wish 1.5 litres. At lease I could see and it would have been watered down :-P
<SiFuh>
Yes. I told the wife. I know alcohol and I know this effect if ritalin
<SiFuh>
if/is
<SiFuh>
She didn't know what it is. I had to explain to her. But she was shocked. I said. I can feel it even in my legs.
<SiFuh>
Can you drive? Yeah, I can fight it. But fuck... I want to send whomever did it to hospital.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I will talk to the other guys tomorrow ask them if they were fucked up.
<zorz>
so no joy of a rape? hahahha
<ukky>
That lady on the left in the first picture tried to date-rape you?
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: you suspect the Ritalin was added to the other guys' drinks, not just to yours?
<SiFuh>
ukky: Hahaha I treat her like a sexy 20 year old. She is a two faced lying bitch. Everyone is disgusted when I flirt with her. Even today the wife asked. Why do you do this? I said "It is simple. As bad as she is, she will be dead soon. Best treat her well without regrets"
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: yes
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Unless the young Japanese guy wanted only me :-P
<SiFuh>
ukky: I actually can't stand these people. They are soy boy week cowardly stupid morons. But I always treat them with respect and care.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I hate weak men. But that is all we have here.
<ukky>
SiFuh: I'd say 50/50, either the lady in red, or guy in red, one of them wanted to rape you.
<SiFuh>
Chris Deburgh is singing
<SiFuh>
ukky: Not them. I think it was staff at the Japanese restaurant
<ukky>
Then we cannot help you identify the predator. You are on your own.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: Wife went for massage, she says if my husband comes. Let me know. They asked "How will know him?" She said "Easy, Australian Cowboy."
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: We were talking in the pub about Korea owning Nuclear weapons. I said in the US you have the right to bare arms. So why can't Korea have nuclear weapons. Then the fucking Danish guy says "That's a far stretch"
<SiFuh>
Only US has nuked a country. So how is that a far stretch?
<ukky>
Firefox took 2.5 hours to compile, that's abnormal. Will limit cores to have 4G/core.
<zorz>
2.5
<zorz>
too much
<ukky>
yes, too much time, probably due to swapping as the disk is regular spinning HDD
<farkuhar>
ukky: Let the long compile jobs run overnight. You won't miss out on the use of the computer when you're asleep.
<ukky>
farkuhar: I would do that if I knew in advance. But this was the first Firefox build on that system in a specific environment.
<ukky>
Now building PaleMoon in the same environment, swap use is 0 at the beginning of the build.
<farkuhar>
Reminds me of the negotiations when it came to tying up the home phone line for a dial-up Internet connection. I remember downloading the first StarOffice on a 56k modem, blocking the home phone line from any other use for almost 12 hours. It had to run overnight in order not to inconvenience anyone else in the household.
<ukky>
Good example of careful scheduling
<farkuhar>
StarOffice, the predecessor of OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice. What a long, strange trip it's been, watching these open-source office suites evolve for three decades.
<zorz>
Staroffice...omg
<farkuhar>
Nowadays there's a not insignificant number of consumers who settle for rented access to a web-based office suite, never bothering to install anything locally except the web browser. As for personal ownership and curation of the created files, these consumers aren't concerned; they're happy to rely on cloud storage for everything.
<zorz>
farkuhar: actually my gmx mail account has office... and if i need something i work it over there.
<zorz>
i created that account in 1998-99
<zorz>
fuckin hell.
<farkuhar>
Regarding the critique that meson brings in "half of a full-blown OS" just to build a tiny project, I expect that anyone building a project from source would already have plenty of disk space dedicated to compilers and *-devel packages. So what's the harm in a python-based build system whose footprint is on par with those other toolchain components?
<farkuhar>
What meson gets right is a syntax that's easy enough to write by hand. The transition from "write it by hand" to "generate it with some scripting tool" occurs at a lower level of complexity with Makefiles than with meson.build. And once you cross that threshold, the generated Makefile is almost unreadable, in contrast to the equivalent meson.build.
<ukky>
I guess you cannot have a cake and eat it. For me, Makefile+make is the perfect build system, even if Makefile is unreadable. With meson, you get front-end simplicity and bloatware behind the scenes.
<zorz>
farkuhar: you need meson for pavucontrol :P
<zorz>
lol
<zorz>
dav1d waybar glib
<zorz>
fuck meson
<ukky>
I wonder how meson would perform building texlive vs building it with autotools.
<zorz>
if SiFuh was here now, meson is gay!
<zorz>
hahaha
<ukky>
PaleMoon finished building in about 45 minutes total, versus 2.5 hours for Firefox.
<zorz>
never used palemoon
<ukky>
just wanted to see if PaleMoon is usable as Firefox replacement
<ukky>
Firefox package (tgz) is 83 MiB; PaleMoon is 522 MiB. Ha.
<ukky>
Packages are different because Firefox has stripped binaries/libraries, but PaleMoon binaries have debug info.
<zorz>
ukky: palemoon is for personal use?
<ukky>
zorz: both. I use browser at work to access internal resources/services. Also, I would like to see if I can use mic in Teams via PaleMoon.
<zorz>
aha
<ukky>
Mic works in Firefox on Crux system.
<zorz>
long time ago i used waterfox... when i used to run archlinux
<ukky>
I liked Opera a lot before it became Chropera.
<zorz>
but now, i always have tor-browser, and used to be ungoogled-chrome, now its firefox.
<zorz>
never used opera
<zorz>
this gnu icecat, librewolf... so many gecko spin offs
<ukky>
tor, of course, cannot be used at work.
<zorz>
you canot use tor for regular internet
<zorz>
?
<zorz>
let me see
<zorz>
let me close it
<zorz>
no mine i need to connect
<ukky>
At work I cannot reach outside network without going through password-protected proxy server, and only ports 20/21/80/443 can be reached via proxy.