<farkuhar>
Heh, pkg_add bokeh did not pull in a bunch of javascript modules in the dpaste that zorz shared. Maybe he already had the necessary JS garbage on his system. More likely, the OpenBSD package is more minimal than what the bokeh docs recommend for a development installation.
<remiliascarlet>
"One thing I really dislike about LINUX is that there are more distribution than happy kids on this earth. Every developers changes something and called it a Distribution of their own." Which is why long time Linux users will always tell you that independent distro's are all that matter, no need to go with the forks.
<remiliascarlet>
"After IBM and then Sun got out of the workstation market, I had a choice. I could either run Linux, which was trying its hardest to be an open-source clone of Windows, or I could run BSD, which was still very Unix." Yeah, I've seen Linux keep changing over the past 30 years, but not as extremely as over the past 10 years. The whole experience got worse and worse since the early 2010s.
<remiliascarlet>
I would love to give IRIX a try on an SGI computer one day, even though it's not a good idea to go online on an abandoned OS.
<remiliascarlet>
But in Linux, the more Windows users got to switch to Linux, the worse the whole experience got, because the distro's and other developers like Lennard Poettering try too hard to make Linux more like Windows.
<remiliascarlet>
And we can perhaps see a repeat of that again when Windows users who switched to Linux start switching to FreeBSD. OpenBSD and in a way NetBSD are the only save havens before it's time to go Haiku or TempleOS.
<farkuhar>
bokeh is the python library that zorz used to create a graph for SiFuh, based on data he collected from beer-making. It plays a similar role as matplotlib or ggplot2.
<farkuhar>
After zorz shared the data visualization, he followed up by criticizing CRUX for being the only Linux distro without a port of pandas (a very common python library in data science).
<remiliascarlet>
Can't he just do `pip3 install pandas` then?
<farkuhar>
It was an unwarranted insult (and possibly inaccurate). And since he no longer runs CRUX on any of his computers, I don't know why he bothered to mention it.
<remiliascarlet>
I still have CRUX installed on my main desktop just for the games, although I didn't boot into it for over a month now. Perhaps if I get QEMU to work on OpenBSD properly, I can be as much of an extremist as zorz lol.
<farkuhar>
Not satisfied with preaching merely OpenBSD with the enthusiasm of a new convert, zorz also had to ascend Mount Stupid to shout loudly his personal preferences for data visualization: pandas, openpyxl, and bokeh.
<farkuhar>
So I've spent the better part of this weekend working on CRUX ports for the python dataviz tools that zorz suggested, even though `pip3 install pandas` and `pip3 install matplotlib` would be just as good as native CRUX packages.
<remiliascarlet>
"to shout loudly his personal preferences for data visualization: pandas, openpyxl, and bokeh." None of which are specifically OpenBSD usecases.
<remiliascarlet>
In fact, all the stuff he's using can even be done on macOS.
<farkuhar>
They aren't specific to OpenBSD, but the fact that they weren't available in our portdb might have discouraged him from sticking with CRUX. Hence the criticisms of ppetrov^ (wishing for an expanded contrib repo) and SiFuh (wishing that the repos were assembled with more input from the Users, less input from the Maintainers).
<remiliascarlet>
Could have told him to make his own port then, it's such a simple process!
<SiFuh_>
farkuhar: Hahaha in reference to US spending money for other countries and not for the American people. Owen Shroyer says "It is like going to a restaurant. You sit down and they hand you the bill, and another bill, and another bill and it keeps going up. What? I haven't even ordered yet, I haven't even eaten yet"
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Installing OpenBSD on a USB 2.0 stick. Relinking kernel is already over 1 hour and still going.
<SiFuh_>
Still relinking :-)
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<dlcusa>
SiFuh: You're going to wait even more once you finally boot that rascal.
<dlcusa>
Life's too short to wait for disk I/O.
<dlcusa>
We're probably not too far from "... SSD I/O" also being true.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: I hope they'll fix the sndio problems by OpenBSD 7.6. Or preferrably distribute a fix ia `syspatch`.
<remiliascarlet>
Clearly something the dev team has overlooked.
<dlcusa>
It's strange what a mess free software audio has always been.
<dlcusa>
And yet JACKTrip came out of it.
<dlcusa>
Had COVID isolation persisted, it would have become a killer app.
<remiliascarlet>
sndio seems to be running well on my ThinkPad T400, so I'm using that for video and audio.
<remiliascarlet>
Very inconvenient if the rest of my work exists on my desktop though.
<remiliascarlet>
Also, I'm kinda looking into replacing FreeBSD on my NAS with NetBSD. Because NetBSD 10.0 has become pretty performant, it also supports ZFS and NFS, and isn't as bloated compared to FreeBSD. FreeBSD is still way less bloated compared to Linux, but still too bloated for something that barely has any innovations that don't originate from OpenSolaris.
<remiliascarlet>
Only regret I installed OpenBSD 7.4 on this desktop, left it like that, returned to FreeBSD and CRUX right afterwards, and only started using OpenBSD on this thing after upgrading to 7.5. Because I don't know if the problem is 7.5, or the hardware itself now.
<lavaball>
SiFuh, i realized, you don't know what anchors are. that's why you said they were tables.
<remiliascarlet>
lavaball: You mean HTML anchors?
<lavaball>
pf.
<lavaball>
firewall.
<remiliascarlet>
Oh.
<lavaball>
it's shit.
<lavaball>
he disagreed. also showed that he can't think in more complicated abstracts than the breakfast hypothetical.
<remiliascarlet>
Thoughout my entire life, I've never been friends with any firewall. Sure, they make your system more secure, but at times it feels more like I'm fighting the firewall rather than it protecting me.
<lavaball>
can't confirm.
<lavaball>
even pf is good enough. it's just shit in comparison with iptables or nft.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: I haven't explained my plan yet. :-P
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: My NFS with OpenBSD works fine.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: 7.4 audio was fine for me. It only started dropping on 7.5
<SiFuh_>
lavaball: As I said. NFT is based off of PF because IPtables sucked
<lavaball>
that's not what i was getting at.
<lavaball>
you don't know what anchors are.
<lavaball>
you thought they were tables.
<SiFuh_>
The are tables
<lavaball>
when i showed you how to insert a rule from terminal, you didn't know what's happening either.
<lavaball>
they are not. they are anchors. tables are where you store ips in.
<lavaball>
so yeah, pf is shit
<lavaball>
and you are full of it.
<SiFuh_>
Full of what? Anchors?
<lavaball>
full of shit!
<lavaball>
get some abstract thinking skills.
<SiFuh_>
Stop giving me shit then
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: The plan is to do the complete install on a USB 2.0 drive. Then I will slice, partition and format the USB 3.0 and then I will copy everything from the 2.0 to the 3.0.
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: "My NFS with OpenBSD works fine." On a NAS, I really prefer to have ZFS, which OpenBSD doesn't have, and the developers seem to be against the idea of integrating it even as a 3rd party port anytime soon.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Maybe they don't trust it?
<remiliascarlet>
I tried to look into the reasons why, but all I could find was just 1 slide saying "Is ZFS the answer? No.".
<remiliascarlet>
So not even sure if they trust it or not.
<SiFuh_>
Sounds like the OpenBSD guys
<remiliascarlet>
It's true that the OpenBSD guys prefer to come up with their own solutions rather than taking it from somebody else (which FreeBSD has been doing over the past decade).
<remiliascarlet>
Even NetBSD comes with more in-house software than FreeBSD does nowadays.
<remiliascarlet>
And FreeBSD is by far the biggest team of the 4 main BSD's.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: Went to the bank. Said hello to the security guard. Took out my stuff and placed it on top of the ATM. Bent down to tie my shoelace. Security guard had a look like he had watched this movie before. Wife comes barging in "Someone hit your car!". Not my car, it is hers. So I pack up everything go outside to look. See the passenger 'not the driver' is talking to her. See the accident is
<SiFuh_>
like nothing. Don't care. Go back in to the bank and that poor security guard. The fear that something was about to go down was written all over his face. :-P
<remiliascarlet>
And then you tell him in an Austrian accent "I'll be right back, OK?", then drive into the bank with your car, and say in an Austrian accent "I'm back.".
<SiFuh_>
Hehe, the guy talking to the wife saw me come out of the bank and I saw the look on his face and even my wife. "He was shitting his pants." (Paraphrasing)
<SiFuh_>
When I told them, I can buff it out and spray it and there is nothing serious, you can go. He began bowing like he was a Japanese and wai-ing at the same time like he was a Thai.
<remiliascarlet>
Mixed race maybe?
<SiFuh_>
Nah, Just a confused Malaysian passenger
<SiFuh_>
Now the real question is why the driver never got out of the car.
<SiFuh_>
Woman? Unlicenced? Drugged the fuck out?
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: It is a nothing accident. two slight pinch dents that I don't care for. And a slice in the paint which I will sand down, prime, spray paint and clear coat. So it doesn't rust.
<remiliascarlet>
In busses, they always play pre-recorded advertisements every time they announce the next stop in Japanese and English. Yesterday the bus driver turned those advertisements off, and pronounced the exact advertisements himself instead.
<SiFuh_>
also.. remiliascarlet dlcusa That kernel is still relinking :-P
<remiliascarlet>
And the only time I saw a bus driver maskless.
<SiFuh_>
r
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: I have done similar on the trains in KL. Repeated the exact thing just before they say it.
<SiFuh_>
It's disgustingly robotic
<remiliascarlet>
Once you hear it often enough, you'll know the exact lines before it's spoken.
<SiFuh_>
Yes, exactly like the lyrics to those annoying pop songs
<SiFuh_>
How many times have I woken up with that Smash Mouth Song, Walking on the sun stuck in my head. WTF?
<SiFuh_>
I don't even listen to that clown. I listen to Country music
<remiliascarlet>
I only can't remember lyrics from rap songs, simply because they always tend to say way too much at a way too high speed in just a 3 minute timespan.
<SiFuh_>
I use to rap on stage for food and beer in Thailand after I resigned for a few months.
<remiliascarlet>
On the other hand, it's very easy to remember lyrics from metal songs, because in many cases it's just 1 sentense that's getting repeated over and over again throughout the entire song.
<dlcusa>
They must get it into your subconsciousness to really get the full value of their investment.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: I can repeat it in Malay and I don't even speak Malay
<SiFuh_>
:-P
<SiFuh_>
Where is zorz? Is he still broken?
<dlcusa>
So is affecting your purchase decision-making? For you, probably not. For most?
<SiFuh_>
I bought a pair of jeans today. Levi's 505. It was the baggiest they had. :-(
<remiliascarlet>
SiFuh_: He probably managed to fuck up his OpenBSD installation with weird Python scripts.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: It's not really an advertisement. It is more like saying mind the gap, next station is this. Destination is that and so on.
<dlcusa>
Okay.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: I wasn't even teasing him. I was just telling him that he is preaching it like it is the greatest thing on the planet and he is still a newbie.
<SiFuh_>
I didn't say 'Peak of "Mount Stupid"' but basically it was what I was explaining.
<SiFuh_>
Then I guess I broke him and he quit.
<dlcusa>
Closely related to the "Beginner's Luck" phenomenon.
<remiliascarlet>
My transition (oh, so stunning and brave!) from Linux to the BSD's took more or less a year, started with servers, then laptops, and now on my desktop. And before I knew it, almost all my machines are running one of the 3 largest BSD's. But not saying that OpenBSD (or Free or Net) is the greatest thing humanity has ever seen.
<remiliascarlet>
There are merits into using OpenBSD as much as there are into using FreeBSD, NetBSD, or even Linux.
<dlcusa>
There are always trade-offs, some more significant than others.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: 100%!
<remiliascarlet>
Very true.
<SiFuh_>
I think all OS's suck
<remiliascarlet>
Basically, zorz is acting like your average Windows user that just switched to Ubuntu or Linux Mint 2 days ago.
<remiliascarlet>
Everything is more than perfect... until you hit a wall or 6.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: remiliascarlet: So basically zorz is acting like your average person who discovered a new religion from one of those backwood, youth centre churches.
<remiliascarlet>
Yes, and that's exactly how a typical Ubuntu newcomer acts like too.
<remiliascarlet>
By the way, do you know if this works? If I buy a ThinkPad with a US layout, and then separately buy a Japanese keyboard leyout for it, then swap it, will the OS recognize a Japanese keyboard layout, or will it still think it uses the US layout?
<SiFuh_>
The chip is in the board
<SiFuh_>
Yes, it will work.
<SiFuh_>
You can buy a GB keyboard and swap it with a US keyboard and it automatically is aware because the keys use code numbers
<remiliascarlet>
Because I see a ThinkPad P50 going for 34,800 yen with a JP keyboard, and another ThinkPad P50 with the same specs for 29,819 yen with an US keyboard.
<remiliascarlet>
That's why I was asking it.
<SiFuh_>
You will be fine
<remiliascarlet>
I see.
<SiFuh_>
I've done many language board swaps in my life
<SiFuh_>
Some by accident. Ordered the wrong board :-P
<SiFuh_>
I like what serpente did. I had the same idea as well but never did it. He bought a keyboard with blanks keys
<remiliascarlet>
The only other concern is that the P50 is a dual GPU (Intel HD Graphics 530 + Nvidia Quadro M2000M) model, so I really wonder if OpenBSD will be able to boot from it. Never used a dual GPU PC before, at least none of which I have direct control over.
<SiFuh_>
Yeah cause Nvidia is a nemesis
<remiliascarlet>
Nemesis?
<remiliascarlet>
Sounds like a retro game console.
<SiFuh_>
Ask zorz, he is greek
<SiFuh_>
A source of harm or ruin.
<remiliascarlet>
Fix him first.
<SiFuh_>
An opponent that cannot be beaten or overcome.
<remiliascarlet>
Oh.
<SiFuh_>
It's actually a Greek word in English
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: I think we are about to hit hour 6 for kernel relinking :-P
<remiliascarlet>
Takes longer than compiling the Linux kernel took last year at this point.
<SiFuh_>
:-P
<remiliascarlet>
I can still code web, server, and commericial software perfectly fine on a ThinkPad T400, but for game development I'm in need for a much beefier laptop.
<remiliascarlet>
Which is why I was looking for a P50.
<remiliascarlet>
Worked on a game yesterday, and the laptop was lagging like a motherfucker.
<remiliascarlet>
And I don't even use any fancy game engine, just SDL2 and OpenGL.
<SiFuh_>
Biden asks Americans to choose between freedom and democracy [3~
<remiliascarlet>
Unbelievable!
<remiliascarlet>
He sounds more awake than he normally is!
<SiFuh_>
“Are you ready to choose unity over division? Dignity over demolition? Truth over lies? Are you ready to choose freedom over democracy? Because that’s America,” he exclaimed.
<SiFuh_>
It is like impossible to find Levi 569s here
<SiFuh_>
I was telling the Levi Jeans lady about zorz, and that his jeans are so tight, he must be a gay. And she burst out laughing.
<remiliascarlet>
Also, I think I will go for the more expensive P50 with the JP keyboard. Looked at how much a replacement keyboard would cost, and I'd basically end up paying the same amount anyway.
<remiliascarlet>
4,280 yen + 680 yen for shipping.
<SiFuh_>
30 bucks for a keyboard?
<SiFuh_>
That is freaking cheap
<SiFuh_>
Most boards I replace are in the hundreds
<SiFuh_>
Also the backspace key sucks
<remiliascarlet>
That's because of the extra 「|」 key that isn't found on American keyboards.
<remiliascarlet>
I mean, the key itself exists, just not at that same spot.
<remiliascarlet>
But this is why just putting keyboard stickers like those Linux laptop vendors suggested me simply won't work.
<SiFuh_>
Stickers suck
<SiFuh_>
Hmm Malaysia has 568 and no 569s. Racists!
<dlcusa>
Preacher sounds like a more in-your-face Shepherd Book from Firefly.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: You've never watched it?
<SiFuh_>
It was fatastic until it crossed the line. Then it just went full weird
<dlcusa>
So mnay creative works. So little time.
<SiFuh_>
I think I have conquered this breathing wall!
<dlcusa>
TaDa!
<SiFuh_>
I will paint it tomorrow
<SiFuh_>
Even my pro-painter friends, my father, and normal painter guys had no freaking idea why the wall is breathing bubbles.
<SiFuh_>
I was about to pull out the wood glue and mix it with plaster to coat the wall.
<SiFuh_>
I put a coat of primer on this morning and it started to bubble. But as it dried, the bubbles dissappeared. It's like a latex glove shrinking.
<SiFuh_>
Second coat was easier to put on. There is one micro crack where the wall breathed through but I can get around that.
<SiFuh_>
The father next door said he thinks the plaster used was mixed with something that isn't normal and that is why it affected the original paint on the way.
<SiFuh_>
way/wall
<dlcusa>
I'm still, as time permits, seeking to identify the Sabertooth freezing cause. After finally getting it to build a 6.8 kernel, I've proven it ignores MagicSysRq commands.
<remiliascarlet>
The Linux kernel updates so insanely often, I stopped liking to compile my own kernel a long time ago.
<SiFuh_>
dlcusa: If it ignores them, then that is 100% a hardware issue
<dlcusa>
Back in the day when a mainframe went into a disabled wait state, we would IPL (boot) from a stand-alone dump tape that would write all main memory to the tape, losing only the low address stuff.
<SiFuh_>
Now-a-days, we take a photo of the screen
<dlcusa>
What does the kernel supply like this these days?
<SiFuh_>
Not much
<dlcusa>
It's just the screen--no messages. The kernel apparently is unaware of any problem.
<SiFuh_>
remiliascarlet: White screens were actually fine. I used a white screen for years on my Sparc64 server
<dlcusa>
I guess the hardware is just too affordable these days to worry about troubleshooting these situations.
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<SiFuh>
remiliascarlet: Going back to 7.4
<SiFuh>
I was listening to something and the audi went quieter and quieter untill nothing could be heard
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: you passed up an opportunity to interject a comment in #crux on the hypocrisy of deleting "junk files" from our ports, but allowing linux-pam to remain in core. I admire your restraint.
<farkuhar>
As for double-checking a post before hitting "send", that's just the online counterpart of "Being a kid in the 70's and 80's you wouldn't go out in public shopping, wearing a T-Shirt and Shorts." You have to maintain a high standard of etiquette and "show respect for the situation you are in".
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<SiFuh>
farkuhar: My reserve ;-)
<farkuhar>
Ottorino Respighi's "Pines of the Appian Way" reminds me of background music for quest/adventure video games. I should check out the local Gamer Symphony Orchestra to see if they're still doing concerts these days.
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