jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<blunder> Is there any reason I would ever touch a symbol property list? There's an example in the HyperSpec using it like a goofy data structure and CLtL talks about it only in terms of compatibility with elderly Lisp languages
<|3b|> old code is the main reason i can think of. better to just use a hash table these days
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<ixelp> (PDF) Protrace: Effective Recursion Tracing and Debugging Library for Functional Programming Style in Common Lisp | Konr [...]
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<rainthree> finally something sane https://web.archive.org/web/20200411024650if_/https://zenodo.org/record/3747548/files/sicl-debugging.pdf "the most important objective in the context of this paper is
<rainthree> support for excellent debugging tools. We think it is going to
<rainthree> be difficult to adapt existing Common Lisp implementations
<rainthree> to support the kind of application debugging that we consider
<rainthree> essential for good programmer productivity."
<rainthree> I am working on fixing this bug https://github.com/svetlyak40wt/asdf-just-done-bug/issues/1 and it's not a pleasure
<ixelp> any fix? · Issue #1 · svetlyak40wt/asdf-just-done-bug · GitHub
<beach> rainthree: Thanks! :)
<beach> [for the "sane" thing]
<beach> rainthree: Unfortunately, the state of debugging with the FLOSS Common Lisp implementations is not great.
<beach> ... as you can read in the "Previous work" section of that paper.
<rainthree> Which codebase should I start reading to get familiar with sicl ? I don't have the capacity and time to help developing it -yet- but I can try to read its sourcecode and become familiar with it
<beach> SICL doesn't exist yet, so you are better off waiting. Unless you just want to look at source code, of course.
<rainthree> yes I want to look at the low level sourcecode
<beach> Then it is right here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<ixelp> GitHub - robert-strandh/SICL: A fresh implementation of Common Lisp
<rainthree> it's a better way to spend time than working with dumb tools
<beach> Heh!
<beach> Oh, and the bootstrapping procedure is currently broken, so don't try that.
<beach> rainthree: One more important thing: We are working on extracting as many modules as possible to separate repositories that can be used by new or existing Common Lisp implementations.
<rainthree> ok
<beach> ... so you might want to check out Khazern, Incless, Inravina, Eclector, Constrictor, Trucler, Clostrum, Parcl, Iconoclast, Common-macros, Common-boot, s-expression-syntax, architecture.builder-protocol, etc.
<rainthree> Great
<beach> The ultimate goal is to make the native SICL code very small, basically just the compiler backend, object representation, and garbage collection.
<beach> In fact, you might be better off starting with those separate repositories. Because work has been put into them so that they are independent of SICL.
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<beach> So, we are working on making things better, but things take time, and most of us (except me) have dayjobs.
<fosskers> In case anyone here has influence: the link to John McCarthy's obituary on lisp.org is dead.
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<jmercouris> who actually controls lisp.org?
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<edgar-rft> jmercouris: the email-me link on lisp.org points to Zach Beane
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<beach> edgar-rft: I don't see any such link. All I see is a picture of John McCarthy.
<beach> Are you confusing it with l1sp.org?
<edgar-rft> https://www.whois.com/whois/lisp.org says "Registrant Contact Organization: Association of Lisp Users"
<ixelp> Whois lisp.org
<beach> That sounds more plausible.
<edgar-rft> maybe duckduckgo confused lisp.org with planet.lisp.org (which is a domain of Zach Beane)
<beach> Well, l1sp.org does belong to Xach, and has the link you described.
<beach> Notice the 1 replacing the i.
<rainthree> https://franz.com/support/documentation/10.1/doc/packages.htm#implementation-packages-2 in what situations are Implementation Packages useful ?
<ixelp> Packages
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<Josh_2> I think we need a "Do X everyday until SICL exists"
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<Josh_2> |3b|: I implemented some functionality recently using symbol property lists and found that (setf (get ..)) didn't work properly, I had to use (setf (property-list .. )) explicitly
<yitzi> Sounds like a bug
<Josh_2> Sure does
<yitzi> Do you have a reproducer?
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<Josh_2> When I look at code I had to change (get .. ) (getf (symbol-plist ..))
<Josh_2> code is now this
<Josh_2> (pushnew (find-symbol (string name) 'sub-region) (getf (symbol-plist region) :children))
<Josh_2> It did not work when I used (get ..) instead of getf
<bike> seems ok to me in a quick test on sbcl. in what way did it not work?
<|3b|> yeah, sounds like a bug. seems to work fine here (on sbcl)
<|3b|> and spec says GET is an accessor, so should be portable
<yitzi> Was the failure specifically PUSHNEW on GET?
<|3b|> (also says get uses EQ, which could matter, but not in the example shown)
<yitzi> Yeah, pushnew worked fine for me on SBCL and CLASP
* |3b| still thinks it would be better to just replace (get region :children) with (gethash region *children*) or similar though
<yitzi> I agree.
<|3b|> or at least use 'my-package:children as the key so it doesn't break if some other lib wants to handle children of arbitrary symbols and decides that would be a good place to describe how
<yitzi> Or if you want the simplicity of plist you can just use GETF on *children*
<|3b|> i meant still putting a plist into the hash table (though that could be bad for other reasons, but since you abstracted that detail away it doesn't matter, right? :)
<Josh_2> IIRC yeh I had to change the get from getf, it wasn't working properly. This must have been 8 months ago now though.
<Josh_2> Everywhere else except those 2 pushnew's uses #'get
<Josh_2> for small sets I prefer lists, and small associations plists
<Josh_2> destructuring plists is just so epic
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