<louis77>
I spent two hours tracking down an issue with LispWorks 8 and CLOSER-MOP. Does anyone use this combination?
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<beach>
White_Flame: It does, thanks!
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<beach>
Here is a challenge for all web gurus out there. I think we need a web form to fill in for WSCL issues, so that most things can be filled in by clicking on a button (like a dictionary entry, glossary entry, or a section). The current submission process imposes a lot of constraints that are hard to remember, and I forget how to do it myself. Thus, I hesitate to submit.
<doulos05>
Has anybody here used List Stores with cl-gtk4? I'm trying to figure out what arguments `make-list-store` is expecting.
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<Helmholtz>
This has recently come up at /r/lisp, but asking to be sure, currently there is no standard way to build a fully static binary with CL, right? Static in a sense that ldd says so.
<beach>
That would depend on the implementation. Nothing in the standard talks about things like that.
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<Helmholtz>
So with SBCL, there is only a patch. What about ECL or others?
<Helmholtz>
Also, which impl. support musl libc instead of glibc?
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<cage>
Hi! seems that, in the context of a reader macro, if the function called returns multiple values (values ...) SBCL returns only the first value whilst ECl return multiple values and signal an error, i can decide which behaviour is correct, or even if both are correct :D
<Josh_2>
Have you tried using multiple-value-bind to bind the values?
<cage>
Josh_2: i solved using nth-value, is it the same?
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<Josh_2>
(multiple-value-bind (a b c)
<Josh_2>
oops
<Josh_2>
(multiple-value-bind (a b c) (values 1 2 3) (print a) ..) -> 1
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<cage>
i used (nth-value 0 (values ...)) as i just needs the first value for the macro to works
<cage>
i think it is the same, is it?
<Josh_2>
:thumbsup:
<cage>
:)
<cage>
the fact is that SBCL returns just the first value even without (nth-value 0 ...)
<cage>
and i do not know if this could be considered a bug or not
<Josh_2>
(print (values 1 2 3)) -> 1
<cage>
this is interesting!
<Josh_2>
I am using SBCL with Sly at the toplevel: OT> (values 1 2 3) \n 1 (1 bit, #x1, #o1, #b1) \n 2 (2 bits, #x2, #o2, #b10) \n 3 (2 bits, #x3, #o3, #b11)
<bike>
if you just want the primary value, you can do (values (whatever))
<cage>
seems it is the same on ECL
<cage>
if you define ea reader macro that returns multiple values in ECL you get an error: The readmacro #<hash-table 0x111c49510> returned n values.
<cage>
at load time
<cage>
seems that, if i can understand correctly what you wrote, this is incorrect
<bike>
clhs 2.2 says "The reader function may return zero values or one value", which makes it sound like a reader macro function that returns more values is nonconforming, maybe.
<bike>
the reader macro function*
<cage>
thanks bike!
<cage>
and thanks Josh_2!
<cage>
i can see the point
<cage>
i think i will signal this behaviour to ECL maintainers
<bike>
it is a bit unclear. it only describes what happens if zero or one values are returned, so it's probably safest to just avoid returning more values. but it's also nice if implementations just discard additional values, so you can just write (gethash ...) or whatnot without worrying about it
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<Josh_2>
Going from doing something 100 times in 0.836 seconds to 0.006 seconds
<cage>
great!
<cage>
bike: i forwarded the message on ECL channel
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<Josh_2>
10 sloc for a 100x speed up :heart:
<louis77>
Josh_2: you disproved Perils dictum
<louis77>
"A LISP programmer knows the value of everything, but the cost of nothing."
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<edgar-rft>
nothing cannot cost much
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<jcowan>
edgar-rft: On the contrary, doing nothing can be very costly
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<edgar-rft>
how can you know?
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<NotThatRPG>
Here's an oddball CL I/O issue: I have an application that I built with Xach's buildapp that reads *standard-input* (with READ) and writes output on *standard-output*. The input is an s-expression. The application reads the input, processes it, and writes the appropriate output. BUT....
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<NotThatRPG>
oh.... never mind! It's a *docker* issue...
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<jcowan>
edgar-rft: If you have cancer, you have a choice of surgery/radiation/chemo or doing nothing. Doing nothing is probably quite expensive in terms of the value of your life.
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* |3b|
's understanding is that physical volumes of actual "nothing" (as in all "something" has been removed) are fairly expensive to create and maintain. even getting close to nothing requires some work
<edgar-rft>
As Lisp programmers we only can know the value but not the costs - what is rather shortbrained because we can very well know the value of the costs.
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<glozzom>
I'm a noob working through SICP, do you have a recommended IDE for lisp/scheme support?
<mfiano>
glozzom: I think you have the wrong channel. This is for a different dialect of lisp, Common Lisp.
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<glozzom>
I don't want to fart around with emacs and get distracted, just something that I can use as a sort of scratch pad for the REPL
<mfiano>
SICP is for Scheme, a completely different language.
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<glozzom>
How much difference can there be? Is there not an environment that is effective at running either as a REPL?
<Pixel_Outlaw>
glozzom, consider asking how to configure Racket for R5RS scheme, they have a SICP mode and can be found on the #racket IRC channel.
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<mfiano>
glozzom: They both represent code as s-expressions. Beyond that, semantic differences everywhere.
<glozzom>
Thank you, I will look into Racket
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<glozzom>
This is a completely different world approaching lisps from C++
<glozzom>
Seems like I'm in for a ride
<Pixel_Outlaw>
glozzom, You will be. I would say just try to embrace the difference. I also came from C++ and now I have more tools in my toolbelt.
<mfiano>
A safer ride without road construction
<Pixel_Outlaw>
No risk of getting std::s or ending up living in Maine. I could give you a few pointers about Lisp but they don't seem to exist outside FFI.
<glozzom>
Any resources you recommend for learning Common Lisp other than just "Practical Common Lisp"?
<mfiano>
I can't recommend any other than that. I've watched people fail with Gentle Introduction before, due to its focus on recursion and other non-idiomatic practices, so I will not mention that.
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<glozzom>
Yea, so far I am enjoying SICP's lack of digging into heavy details and sticking to concept
<Pixel_Outlaw>
For now though, it's best to do some research and sink some time into a single dialect. You've got Scheme-likes, Common Lisp-likes, and Clojure-Likes.
<glozzom>
I would've closed it by now if it were just "The Joys of Recursion"
<Pixel_Outlaw>
And many unique things. But since you're doing SICP Scheme would be your current family to study.
<glozzom>
I appreciate the advice
<mfiano>
Scheme is a much simpler language, and relies on many competing extensions for anything extra, and ammendments to the language every few years.
<mfiano>
Common Lisp is a much more sophisticated language that doesn't emphasize a particularly programming style, including OOP, which it is really well suited for, thanks to CLOS, an object system like none other.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Also the macro system.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
:)
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Building new language from nothing but lists.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
truly new language, not just text manipulation
<mfiano>
Scheme on the other hand, enforces tail call optimization for compilers, and therefor recursion is very idiomatic. This is not the case in Common Lisp, where we have several iteration constructs, each suitable to different tasks.
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<ldb>
Yeah SICP would teach you to invoke continuation at letrec bindings.
<ldb>
would not*
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Recursion being dangerous in Common Lisp depending on the implementation. (but most I think handle tail call elimination)
<skin>
It was hard for me to switch from scheme to CL's `loop` but I kinda prefer it now. Nice shorthand for "just do this please".
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<glozzom>
I'm going to hop ship after SICP, the whole reason lisps are interesting to me are these meta-programming capabilities
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I LOVE a filthy Common Lisp loop.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
glozzom, well you can have "unhygenic" macros in some Schemes too. SO you can implement loops from pure recursion.
<glozzom>
I just heard SICP is goated and I'm not stopping
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<mfiano>
Scheme has several different macro facilities. I lost track of them all. I prefer not working with syntax objects, and just using code procedurally, which is one of its options, depending on the Scheme version, implementation, and/or extensions used.
<mfiano>
Scheme tends to have all the features you want, but you often have to inline them into your codebase, or pull them in as libraries.
<skin>
glozzom: Re your 'how do I just do this thing' without going to emacs. I think the book you might enjoy is this one https://leanpub.com/lovinglisp
<ixelp>
Loving Common Lisp, or the⦠by Mark Watson [PDF/iPad/Kindle]
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<glozzom>
Downloading right now
<glozzom>
I've got a backlog, I wish I had more eyeballs or something, too many books
<skin>
it uses rlwrap + sbcl and copy-paste instead of emacs, teaches lisp from the perspective of a C++ developer. kinda just what you needed feels like
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Hmm didn't PCL have some notion of "Lisp in a Box" that's dead or something now? Maybe that was just a configured Emacs.
<mfiano>
The real trouble with Scheme is portability. You're going to have a harder time writing code for portable Scheme than for portable Common Lisp.
<ldb>
usually people just stick to a particular scheme implementation
<ldb>
or use racket
<mfiano>
And if you ask me, that is my biggest factor when considering a language. Scheme is not as good as Common Lisp here, but I'd argue it is a close second.
<skin>
Note the "How is Lisp Different from Languages Like Java and C++?", "Making the repl nicer with rlwrap" sections.
<mfiano>
Right, that is the problem. Implementations change, and your code changes as a side effect.
<mfiano>
Implementations conform to more recent standards. They change APIs of non-standard features. Sticking to 1 implementation is dropping most of the benefits I look for.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
If you REALLY want non portable Scheme try writing a GIMP plugin. Woof, autogenerated bindings using magic numbers.
<skin>
yeah, and the scheme community is divided over r6rs, which throws a wrench into things. They are splintered on which package manager to use also.
* Pixel_Outlaw
thinks we need more ECL in the world.
<skin>
I've tried to work with ECL a lot. It was okay, but CFFI + ECL + Windows = :( so I just stick with SBCL
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I was hacking it into GrafX2 a while back. But got sidetracked.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I should continue on that, it was fun having a scriptable Lisp driven pixel art program.
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<ldb>
Scheme is divided in to R6RS (Chez Scheme) and R5RS/R7RS (The rest)
<ldb>
Likewise, Common Lisp is SBCL and the rest
<mfiano>
and then there's these monoliths like Guile that support everything
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Could be worse, could be writing Lisp in ed.
<ixelp>
Developing Common Lisp using GNU Screen, Rlwrap, and Vim — Skin's Blog
<mfiano>
I like vim, but I only use it for non-CL.
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<skin>
I use it for CL too
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Emacs Lisp is getting fairly nice since it's sucked in so much of Common Lisp.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Well, to a Common Lisp guy anyway.
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<glozzom>
As much as I feel like VSCode isn't based, its so damn convenient
<mfiano>
I have a couple thousand line vimrc for CL support, but it is blocked from some of vim's static features. It is not very amenable to dynamic code. it loves static analysis in its syntax highlighting, indentation formatters, etc
<Pixel_Outlaw>
glozzom, if you're doing punched card based data you want SEU on your standard IBM AS/400 so you can write the columnar language "IBM RPG".
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Shame IBM tossed Lisp so early on and settled for shit like COBOL and RPG.
<ixelp>
I have written several scripts -- some throwaway, some not -- that use ed. If yo... | Hacker News
<glozzom>
"The one true, the right honorable, the standard editor, Edward 'ed(1)' Editor" lmao
<skin>
I love that talk
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Any success stores of sneaking CL into the workplace? I built a cool project for work but it got mothballed. We were a Clojure team but I went straight to Common Lisp for an exploratory project. Sadly we're doing Rust and it's back to C+++ .
<skin>
I'm seriously thinking of doing this. Lots of Elixir at our shop, so I don't know if they'd dismiss it out of hand. I'm thinking I can point to Elixir like "Is there really a difference? Just use it I already wrote it" lolz
<Pixel_Outlaw>
One thing that surprises people about CL is that the SBCL team have done a damn fine job makingit fast.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
That's a plus.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Hiring is another matter for CL.
<skin>
Eh. Just hire someone who actually likes learning
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<skin>
I'm in DevOps. there aren't too many of those, either, devops engineers. I usually just hire someone who "is willing to dive in" and just learn stuff. Works well enough, Those people are rare but not as rare as actuall devops engineers. Would work for CL too.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Hmmm so automation around CL?
<Pixel_Outlaw>
CL as a replacement for Bash/Python etc