<gendl__>
speaking of `uiop:run-program` how can I run a program in Windows where there's a space in the executable pathname? I cannot get this to work: `(uiop:run-program "c:/\"program files\"/gendl1598/gdl/program/gdl-ccl.exe -e \"(ccl:quit)\")`
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<NotThatRPG_away>
gendl__: What happens when you try?
<gendl__>
Alfr: thanks for the tip! with list form of command and `:force-shell t` it works in both CCL and SBCL. I'll be able to sleep now!
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<NotThatRPG>
gendl__: Just curious: what happens if the internal quote is a single quote? This looks like a bug to me, but ASDF is poorly tested on Windows.
<NotThatRPG>
I'm gonna go to sleep soon, but if you think there's a bug, please file an issue on the ASDF gitlab (although goodness knows how I would debug this, w/o access to a windows box)
<gendl__>
NotThatRPG: I'll check it tomorrow and I think we can get you access to a windows box if desired.
<hayley>
An "instance object" in the SBCL internals is any object which has a layout which isn't a special case in the implementation.
<beach>
So a standard object by a different name?
<hayley>
Not quite. A hash table, for example, is not a standard object, but is an instance object.
<beach>
Or maybe since perhaps this terminology was established before CLOS, a standard object is a "special case" and some non-standard objects aren't special cases.
<hayley>
Actually, now that you mention it, instance objects are instances of STRUCTURE-OBJECT; standard objects use the header-and-vector representation from Portable Common LOOPS.
<beach>
That's kind of what I thought, no?
<hayley>
There are many built-in classes which are structure classes in SBCL. I think I've confused my meta- levels here.
<beach>
Completely understandable.
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<hayley>
(Well, some instance objects are managed specially by the SBCL garbage collector: the "next" slots of nodes in lock-free lists can be untagged, and there's a weird protocol surrounding weak hash tables which I still don't entirely get.)
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<stylewarning>
hayley: i wish i could define my own object layouts + associated class
* stylewarning
is currently battling with commingling 5 GB sparse tries
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<skeemer>
what is the advantage of having symbols wrt only strings?
<prokhor>
although there are people far more proficient than me, I try to answer: A symbol has a function slot and a value slot thus you can have functions which are called the same as some variables...
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<Shinmera>
Symbols retain identity, Strings do not.
<Shinmera>
Symbols are specifically there to name stuff.
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<ecraven>
skeemer: since you've asked all over the place, keep in mind that "symbols" in Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure, and others are *different*
<Shinmera>
Well, if the example were as intended, anyway :)
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<|3b|>
symbols are "strings + other stuff", so the advantage is not having to do the "other stuff" yourself. if you don't want that stuff, it might be no advantage for you.
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<|3b|>
a lot of it happens at the language level, so would be pretty inconvenient to duplicate with user code, but presumably if it weren't happening at the language level the replacements would be made more convenient instead, so it is harder to compare across languages
<skeemer>
ecraven, how are they different in different lisps ?
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<|3b|>
parts related to multiple namespaces wouldn't be in lisp-1, parts related to packages wouldn't be in lisps without packages, etc
<|3b|>
newer lisps might not bother with symbol plists
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<beach>
prokhor: That's not quite true. It is not specified where the function or a value associated with a particular name is stored.
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<beach>
skeemer: What is the reason for your original question?
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<skeemer>
beach more to understand what's the purpose with symbols
<skeemer>
and why they are not implemented in many other "popular" programming languages
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<beach>
skeemer: Because most languages are not homoiconic, so variables do not need to be manipulated as first-class objects in those languages.
<beach>
skeemer: Those languages usually don't have a decent macro system, but Common Lisp macros need to be able to introduce and otherwise manipulate representations of variables, and Common Lisp symbols fill that need.
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<beach>
skeemer: Does that make sense to you?
<skeemer>
beach yes more or less yes
<skeemer>
thanks a lot
<beach>
Pleasure.
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<Shinmera>
skeemer: Even in other languages symbols are usually implemented in the compiler, but because the compiler isn't part of the runtime you don't get access to those objects.
<skeemer>
Shinmera, ohh i didn't know thanks for the info!
<Shinmera>
Then there's languages like Erlang and other derivatives like Elixir that also have symbols as first-class objects.
<jackdaniel>
(intern "PENTAGRAM") brings good luck
<jackdaniel>
because it is a lucky symbol :)
<skeemer>
ahahah okok
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* easye
is very confused by CL-PPCRE claiming to be Perl compatible regexps.
<hayley>
What's the confusion (beyond PCRE semantics)?
<easye>
Does CL-PPCRE:ALL-MATCHES-AS-STRINGS do the same thing as building a scanner "by hand"?
* easye
prepares a paste to show more exactly my problem.
* easye
should actually go through the motions of building the scanner by hand first, as CL-PPCRE:PARSE-STRING is decent introspection.
<easye>
hayley: et, al.: gotta take a call, will prepare an example to share for further elucidation from yer collective wisdom. Thanks!
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<easye>
Hmm. I can't get plaster.tymoon.eu to make a new paste logged in as easye.
* easye
grymbles.
<yitzi>
Is there a limit?
<easye>
Dunno what's going on. Maybe my dumbness. Gonna try some other stuff for a bit, and get back to this.
<easye>
therepl: are you authenticated as a give user, or solving the captcha?
<easye>
s/give/given/
<therepl>
but I'm not logged in to it
<therepl>
not authenticated. yes solving the captcha
<easye>
Ah. I thought I had logged out. I will be more vigorous in clearing state (i.e. use a different browser) and try again. Thanks for trying it.
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<Shinmera>
That's odd, should paste fine when logged in?
<Shinmera>
There's no limits
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<NotThatRPG>
gendl__: I will see if RUN-PROGRAM has the same issue on non-Windows platforms...
<pjb>
stylewarning: that said, there are also a lot of occasions where you may use strings instead of symbols. For example, in defpackage forms, people often use symbols (keywords or uninterned), but you may also use strings, since defpackage takes string designators.
<pjb>
skeemer: that said, there are also a lot of occasions where you may use strings instead of symbols. For example, in defpackage forms, people often use symbols (keywords or uninterned), but you may also use strings, since defpackage takes string designators.
<pjb>
(sorry stylewarning)
<AkashaPeppermin4>
curious what the effect is of doing something like #"Hello world" or #."Hello world"
<Oladon>
hayley: beach: MM = million, yeah. And those are objects, not size... I'm just not sure what I should go hunting for now, to figure out why it's hogging so much memory.
<beach>
AkashaPeppermin4: What is #"?
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<yitzi>
Akasha Peppermint: quote isnt a macro dispatch character by default.
<yitzi>
Double quote that is.
<|3b|>
strings are self-evaluating, so #."..." has no particular effect aside from wasting time and failing if *read-eval* is nil
<|3b|>
(with *read-eval* non-nil, #."x" would read as a string containing the character x, the same as "x" would)
<pjb>
Well, as long as there's not a non-standard reader macro on #\"
<|3b|>
right, or on #\# #\. #\x etc
<|3b|>
(well, maybe not #\x)
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<gendl__>
NotThatRPG: Using single-quotes does not seem to help. I'm finding a few more issues as well e.g. problems with argument/value pairs e.g. --eval.
<NotThatRPG>
Just checking -- what version of ASDF do you have?
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<gendl__>
3.3.6
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<gendl__>
NotThatRPG: You still have a user account on the "hog" Windows host - do you happen to remember the fqdn and password for that? If not let me know, and I'll DM you.
<gendl__>
We can install a gitlab-runner on there as well if you want to run asdf regression tests from the gitlab pipeline.
<gendl__>
(although I've never run gitlab-runner on windows -- we use our own build agent written in CCL).
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<NotThatRPG>
gendl__: Thanks! Right now I'm on vacation, but will try to get some time to look into this.
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<NotThatRPG>
Here's something for UIOP I'd love opinions on: UIOP has `directory-pathname-p` which returns a true value if a pathname designator has no `name` component. Oddly, this means that a `pathname` with an empty `directory` component is considered a directory path name, as long as its `name` is NIL or `:unspecific`. I have been thinking that this should be changed so that it returns only if the directory component is non-empty, in addition to
<NotThatRPG>
having a vacuous `name`.
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<NotThatRPG>
I have to go off, but if you have thoughts about this, LMK when you have a chance. And I just posted about it to ASDF-devel, for anyone who gets that (or wants to look at the archive).
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<pjb>
NotThatRPG_away: / is a directory! (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute) :name nil :type nil :version nil) #| --> #P"/" |#
<pjb>
that said, (make-pathname :directory nil :name nil :type nil :version nil) probably behaves in all other cases just as (make-pathname :directory '(:relative) :name nil :type nil :version nil)
<pjb>
So I would say uiop behavior is ok, you can always use CL readers to inspect the path more precisely.
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<NotThatRPG_away>
What bothers me is that this check means that `(ensure-directory-pathname "")` *also* returns true, which seems wrong to me.
<NotThatRPG_away>
ensure seems to me to imply that the result is going to be ... well ... ensured, and this seems too sloppy for that
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<NotThatRPG_away>
If `(ensure-directory-pathname "")` returned a pathname with `directory` = `'(:relative)`, that would be ok, but that would add yet another special case to logic that's already over-complicated.
<NotThatRPG_away>
Having `directory-pathname-p` return `nil` for this case seems like the easiest fix for the problem.
<NotThatRPG_away>
Anyway -- *really* going away now
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