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<edwlan[m]>
America/Los_Angeles alternates between PST and PDT
<edwlan[m]>
The location makes a difference because, for example, Phoenix, AZ doesn’t have daylight savings time, so it’s always Mountain Standard Time. Other cities like Denver, CO would alternate between MST and Mountain Daylight Time
<edwlan[m]>
So, the location-based time zones are generally better to use than the offsets or abbreviations for things like scheduling.
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<|3b|>
edwlan[m]: they have names that aren't cities though (aside from any odd ones that actually are just a city) US/Pacific, US/Mountain, US/Arizona.
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* |3b|
doesn't think i've ever heard anyone say they are in "Los Angeles" time zone, even if they live in LA, they are in Pacific. Adding an extra indirection to make people enter LA instead of pacific is just confusing
<skeemer>
what are the most common common lisp implementations that are not dead today and that you would consider starting a new project in ?
<|3b|>
especially for central, where the representative city is on the right edge, and the representative city of mountain time is also on the right edge, so a lot of the zone is closer to the mountain time city
* |3b|
has no reason to know or care what time zones denver and chicago are in, except that i have to enter chicago into stupid UIs to get central time
<jcowan>
Note that America/Toronto and America/New_York are in lockstep todday, but this hasn't always been so. From 1974-01-06 to 1974-10-05, the whole U.S. was on Daylight Savings Time, but Canada was not.
<jcowan>
And anyway, is it really so hard, given a list of cities in your country, to figure out which the closest one is?
<|3b|>
some of the western-most cities in the zone are within ~1/4 degree east of denver, close to 20degrees west of chicago
<|3b|>
jcowan: the closest one is in the wrong zone :p
<|3b|>
and it is extra work for no reason
<|3b|>
note that US/Eastern and Canada/Eastern have the same historical properties as /Toronto and /New_York, without caring about cities
<edwlan[m]>
Western Arizona is an example where picking US/Mountain is likely to give you the wrong time zone for part of the year
<|3b|>
so pick us/arizona
<edwlan[m]>
Parts of Indiana are like this too, I think
<|3b|>
since you live in arizona time zone, not mountain time zone
<|3b|>
and there is US/East-Indiana for them too
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<edwlan[m]>
And there are two pacific time zones and you switch between them in California
<|3b|>
no, there is 1 time zone that observes DST
<edwlan[m]>
we switch from PST to PDT and back
<edwlan[m]>
Anyways, I’ve always preferred picking the city rather than the other zones
<|3b|>
and conveniently, US/Pacific is that timezone, which includes PST and PDT
<|3b|>
presumably you live somewhere with an obvious reference city. would picking "Pacific" be more confusing?
<|3b|>
a good chunk of mountain is closer to LA than Denver, lots of central is closer to Denver than Chicago,lots of eastern is closer to Chicago than NY
<edwlan[m]>
Yeah, one example here is that California periodically talks about abolishing daylight savings time
<|3b|>
and probably the majority of people in any of those don't even know which is closer, even with a map :p
<edwlan[m]>
And I’m more confident that the city timezone data will be updated than that I’ll remember to switch away from pacific time.
<|3b|>
and then all the people in northern idaho who have been trained to enter LA would suddenly be getting the wrong zone
<|3b|>
and nv, or, wa
<|3b|>
and they would suddenly have to know some other random city now means pacific time
<edwlan[m]>
If you’re up there, you’d enter Seattle
<edwlan[m]>
Or Boise
<|3b|>
depends on your time zone database
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<|3b|>
and boise would be wrong, it is in mountain
<|3b|>
yay for "just pick the closest" again
<|3b|>
either have a database with /every/ city in it, or a map that zooms in close enough to find cities, or just let people pick the time zone name
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<skeemer>
what are the most common common lisp implementations that are not dead today and that you would consider starting a new project in ?
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<|3b|>
most people just write common lisp not code for some specific implementation (unless maybe they need some specific extension)
<|3b|>
sbcl is probably the most popular, ccl,clisp,ecl are also popular
<|3b|>
some people like the commercial lisps (acl, lispworks)
<|3b|>
abcl if you want to run on jvm
<|3b|>
CL specifies enough, and implementations extend to support enough of the same things, that it is usually not that hard to write code that works on many implementations (at least once you know CL well enough to tell which parts are required by the spec and which are extensions or work accidentally)
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<jcowan>
Yes, well, in the U.S. the zone boundaries are far west of their nominal positions. Look at Michigan, which mostly Eastern time even though its westernmost pont is 2 degrees of longitude west of Chicago.
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<fitzsim>
I got lem-sdl2 working on ppc64le; cl-autowrap, cl-sdl2, cl-sdl2-ttf and cl-sdl2-image needed minor porting patches; I sent pull requests for all of them; fingers crossed that they'll be merged so that a future Quicklisp update will pick them up
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<jcowan>
The main point about the cities is that their names tend to be very stable. The name "Roma" has been in use for 2776 years without interruption, and "Rome" is a trivial variant of it
<jcowan>
so europe/rome (or europa/roma) is extremely well defined
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<edgar-rft>
what is the timezone of Atlantis?
<jcowan>
depends on where you think Atlantis wsa
<jcowan>
was
<edgar-rft>
I mean it'a well-established and well-defined name, but...
<jcowan>
perhaps UTC or etc/UTC-1
<edgar-rft>
a more trivial exampl: there are 14 places in the world named New York!
<edgar-rft>
example, damn keybord
<jcowan>
Only one of which is the largest city in its country+timezone combination.
<aeth>
(since the entries in "New York state" are kind of duplicates of each other)
<aeth>
Maybe 13 if you consider NYC and NY state separate.
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<beach>
Hmm, the AMOP function ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION-USING-CLASS (and thus also ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION) has a keyword parameter :DECLARATIONS, but the version of ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION in the standard has a keyword parameter :DECLARE, just like DEFGENERIC.
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<beach>
And the dictionary page for ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION is inconsistent in that it says that the keyword arguments correspond to the options to DEFGENERIC except for METHOD-CLASS and GENERIC-FUNCTION-CLASS. But then it goes right ahead and requires the METHOD-COMBINATION keyword argument to be a method-combination object, which contradicts the previous sentence.
<Inline>
standardese eheh
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<Josh_2>
Hi :trumpet:
<edgar-rft>
tumpets are nice pets, they don't need much food
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<doulos05_>
Roswell really seems to simplify shipping software written in CL!
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<doulos05_>
It makes it almost like python software, where it's just "pip install x" and now you can just type "x" to run it from the command line
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<Inline>
hello @geblaese@
<Inline>
lol
<Inline>
i have all the power for the job but it's on the wrong end you know
<Inline>
hahahaha
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<McParen>
doulos05_: can it get any easier than simply calling save-lisp-and-die?
<McParen>
I havent tried roswell, but as i understand, its primary purpose is easily installing and updating different implementations.
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<doulos05_>
McParen: I can call save-lisp-and-die on my linux machine. If I send that file to someone on a windows machine, can they open it?
<McParen>
doulos05_: ok, that sounds useful.
<pjb>
doulos05_: they can always open the file, but they won't be able to do much else with it.
<pjb>
doulos05_: even in the case of clisp, which uses a VM, there are elements in its images that are incompatible across OSes.
<pjb>
doulos05_: that said, it's theorically possible to design a VM that would be completely portable, like the JVM.
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<doulos05_>
pjb: Yeah, that'd be pretty awesome.
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<rselim>
that would be a fun project. maybe combine it with some of the Actually Portable Executable stuff?
<rselim>
so you can save to an image that includes the vm and is runnable as a selfcontained binary, multiplatform
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<pjb>
There are several engines that could be used perhaps, or at least from which we could take inspiration. Eg. Apple Bitcode, or LLVM bitcode (LTO); I guess they're the same.
<hayley>
Apple uses LLVM bitcode, to my knowledge. But depending on your needs, LLVM IR is possibly too low level, exposing representations and implementation details.
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<hayley>
Though it might work for the same implementation across different instruction sets; non-local transfer of control seems the most daunting and platform-specific thing in LLVM.
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<hayley>
But if you want to do such things for a laugh, the easiest approach is to send the source code. Sorry not sorry.
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<pl>
LLVM bitcode is not portable though
<pl>
and can include all kinds of random extensions on top of including assumptions about target platform
<pjb>
hayley: actually I agree with you. Just send the source code.
<hayley>
pjb: I'd say Smalltalk-80 but Xerox dropped the ball on endianness (the VM should deal with a canonical endianness on disk, rather than byteswapping the image).
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<pjb>
clisp writes all the binary files in a portable format (little-endian) so at least, you can transfer them across systems. But I don't know of any such guarantee with other implementations.
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<skeemer>
would you guys advice this book ? Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp
<skeemer>
is it still relevant?
<pjb>
Definitely.
<pjb>
It's a good book, with a succint Common Lisp reference (better than the Hyperspec for newbies), and teaching CL programming using classic AI algorithms. Which makes it very interesting.
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<skeemer>
pjb, but are these algorithms still relevant?
<skeemer>
i mean how archaic are the things teached ?
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<doulos05_>
skeemer: In terms of the lisp? Not at all. In terms of the AI? It's classic AI, not Machine Learning, so that's different.
<pjb>
Yes. ChatGPT is still not able to do GPS, so you bet they're still relevant.
<pjb>
We need to make some fusion of classic AI and statistical AI. Now is the right time.
<doulos05_>
But not archaic. People still use it tasks that aren't big-data-driven AI.
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<skeemer>
pjb, what does GPS stand for ?
<pjb>
General Problem Solver. Classical AI algorithm. Actually used a lot in robotics.
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<jcowan>
hayley: Back in 1980 there was no obviously dominant endianness, as there is today, so it made more sense (given that your average image load in on the same machine where the save was done) to swap lazily as needed.
<jcowan>
s/load/loads
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<pjb>
jcowan: the obvious endianness is big-endian.
<pjb>
That has always been the case.
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<jcowan>
If you say so.
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<Lycurgus>
ppl not alive and in the field in '80 have a hard time understanding the diversity of architectures in that time
<Lycurgus>
at that time the dominant form of computer now what called a microcomputer and the thought that there would be one basic arch that essentially was the universe or the common universe anyway woulda seemed far fetched
<aeth>
to be fair, there's 2.5 architectures
<aeth>
used to be x86/ARM/MIPS, now it's x86-64/ARM64/RISC-V
<aeth>
(and yeah RISC-V is already everywhere because $0.00 beats ARM's $0.10)
<aeth>
Maybe 2.75 if you want to give RISC-V 0.375 and POWER 0.375
<Lycurgus>
power is distinct
<aeth>
yes, power definitely is the odd one out afaik
<Lycurgus>
arm not so much
<Lycurgus>
but in 80, and for a while after that a hundred schools blossomed
<ldb>
ppc was popular for game consoles
<aeth>
and Apple
<ldb>
PS3
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<Lycurgus>
and endedness varied
<ldb>
haha the big endian
<aeth>
these discussed architectures more or less match up with the architectures supported by SBCL... also SPARC for some reason even though it's dead post-Oracle. https://sbcl.org/platform-table.html
<ixelp>
Download - Steel Bank Common Lisp
<Lycurgus>
most ppl in the field now don't even know of archs that predate intel
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<hayley>
jcowan: I got bit by endianness running Smalltalk-80 on my Wii in 2021; it's big-endian and the VM author already byteswapped for a little-endian machine.