<heat>
even if you estimate the actual deployment of PML5 to
<zid>
it was 'planned' from 2004 or whatever
<heat>
~2020, it doesn't make much of a diference
<zid>
they knew to leave that door wide open
<heat>
it took roughly ~15-20 years to need 9 more VA bits
<heat>
so 2020 + 20 = 2040
<zid>
I think it's a normal distribution though
<zid>
where 47 was still climbing the slope
<zid>
48*, and 57 is past the peak
<zid>
64 will be for 'extreme' users
<zid>
and 128 will never be needed generally
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<heat>
a single bit past 64-bit and you need a 128-bit machine
<zid>
yes, and I think 64bit is already extreme
<zid>
but I guess, if *one* single 128bit cpu ever exists, linux will end up needing to support it
<nikolar>
There are probably some supercomputers that use a significant portion of the 64bit address space
<zid>
but imo you might *never* see one in a desktop
<zid>
or at least, if 128bit 'mode' is available, it's not used by users
<zid>
like, x32 is a thing even, x64 would be 4 billion times better than it :P
<heat>
i dont know, i feel like its hard to predict
<heat>
i dont know if its a normal distribution, we'll see
<zid>
so far, almost nothing benefits from more than pae, we're just *barely* past the point where an application a user might run wants more than 4GB
<zid>
we're not near the end of 64bit, we're still at the start
<zid>
like, if we went as deep into the 32bit 'cycle' as we go into 64bit, where we're *dying* for more address space, and murdering babies with weird hacks to try get it, it'd be until 2400 :P
<heat>
there are many creative uses for address space that don't involve having actual RSS
<zid>
yea but it's just a hardware trie at that point
<zid>
someone could just add an instruction for that
<zid>
if that's what they actually want
<heat>
yeah but you might run out of trie
<zid>
make it a 4096 bit trie for all I care, if they get given a special instruction for it
<heat>
AFAIK one of the big needs for PML5 was that most kernels directly map *all memory* and that ended up being a limitation on really large systems
<zid>
I don't want pointers as big as cache lines, weirdly
<zid>
yea, but 47 is still on the sharp part of the curve, like I said
<zid>
it's "a bit better than 32bit", and we got *deep* into 32bit land before we switched to 47
<zid>
so it was already 'late'
<zid>
(we ended up running 36-in-32, as I'm sure you'll remember)
<zid>
and we ran that 36-in-32 for 20 years
<zid>
dying to switch to more
<heat>
but PAE was a mistake
<zid>
until reality (silicon, design, etc) could make switching to 64bit tenable
<zid>
I don't think we'll switch to 128bit until we're running 69-in-64 for 20 years first :p
<heat>
PAE doesn't solve the basic problem of running out of virtual addressing
<nikolar>
Or maybe Intel decides to not repeat pae and you immediately get 128bits
<zid>
except we aren't
<zid>
some extreme users are running out of 47bit
<heat>
fwiw, we already have 128-bit registers
<zid>
not pointers
<heat>
you'd just need to switch all of them to that
<zid>
we have 512bit regs
<zid>
it uses extreme amounts of power and die area
<heat>
maybe in 20-30 years they will be able to
<nikolar>
I mean we still have plenty of 64bit address space
<zid>
and completely fucked a bunch of structs
<zid>
cpu design is kind of walled, heat
<zid>
we're getting fucked by hotspotting
<zid>
cus we've made things so small that you can't get the heat out of it
<heat>
can't get the
<heat>
heat
<heat>
hehe
<nikolar>
Ba dum tss
<zid>
just the amount of charge change divided by the amount of atoms is getting smallaf
<zid>
so they just keep.. glueing more cores together
<zid>
even intel is on the glue-die game now
<nikolar>
It's a miracle that modern CPUs are even possible
<zid>
The design principles have been similar for a very very long time
<zid>
it's mainly just accuracy issues on working that small, until you start bumping into *physics* issues, like we are now
<zid>
you can't cool them, the electrons won't sit still, etc
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<zid>
so they're just going WIDE, abusing process improvements to get bigger dies without adding too many defects such that the cpu gets rejected
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<zid>
(and glue, also abusing glue)
<nikolar>
Computing is solved, go home everyone
<zid>
More like, computing traditionally is solved for now, that's why everything is now MACHEEN LERNIG
<mantahydra1>
Now if gpus had an actual common isa among vendors, we could get better support
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<clever>
mantahydra1: llvm tried to paper over that, and allow re-compiling a shader at runtime
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<Mondenkind>
'common isa' pls no pls no
<Mondenkind>
isas are a disaster idea
<Mondenkind>
they learned their lesson from the cpus
<Mutabah>
IMO, the separate ISAs for graphics helps performance
<Mutabah>
Although... it does mean that you rely on the chipset manufacturer to provide the toolchains (and drivers)...
<Mutabah>
but if you haven't heard what NVidia do in their drivers to make games work properly, you should look it up
<Mondenkind>
ideally the core isa would be documented, and the tooling open-source, but it would be explicitly unstable and not a direct programming interface
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* kof123
<scans clipboard: video about X noting "extensions", chat quote "opengl extension hell", chat about riscv, chat about arm> <adds gpu isas to list>
<kof123>
i don't think you ever have to worry about a common ISA at any level :D
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<kof123>
> 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'
<Mutabah>
Another way of saying that: Why would GPU manufacturers standardise on an ISA, when that would cost money and not save any (as well as reduce their freedom to make changes as needed)
<kof123>
^
<Mondenkind>
by 'pls no pls no' i actually meant 'can we get rid of isas on cpus too pls' :p
<Mondenkind>
intel was kinda treating their isa as a moat for a bit--all the annoying fiddly bits that they've already worked out how to make fast enough are a barrier to competitors--but nowadays that's not so true anymore. but instead we get, um, riscv :(
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<kof123>
well i was not trying to argue either way, just a) pay someone b) do it yourself c) try to convince a) or b) is how i see it
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<gorgonical>
I am furious that fucking stale tlb entries got me again
<gorgonical>
I wasted nearly a day and a half on this tomfoolery
<Mondenkind>
i suggest turning off the tlb
<Mondenkind>
HTH.HAND
<gorgonical>
Since the tlb's main job is to cache tree walks, I wonder if there's actually a reasonable argument to make for non-tree page tables
<Mutabah>
Heard of "software managed tlb"?
<gorgonical>
I know they used to be more popular
<gorgonical>
power does this, right?
<gorgonical>
It's the only arch I know of that allows software to manage it. But I'm no esoteric arch guy
<Mutabah>
Think so.
<Mutabah>
But iirc all modern architectures use a tree
<gorgonical>
Obviously this is sort of a non-problem once you sit down and figure out exactly where and what kinds of entries you need to flush
<gorgonical>
But there's still the overhead of flushing and translating anyway
<gorgonical>
I just clearly forgot some flush in my change_aspace code
* Mondenkind
just wants to be able to reliably clear the dirty bit without actually flushing the tlb
<gorgonical>
On risc-v the dirty bits for pages are software managed in many implementations
<Mondenkind>
like i wanna say
<Mondenkind>
'clear dirty bit' and if it's already in the tlb it'll clear the dirty bit in-place without evicting the tlb entry
<gorgonical>
ooh
<gorgonical>
I don't think the risc-v machines I've used do that. I certainly don't remember anything that fancy in the manual
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<geist>
gorgonical: ahh sorry
<gorgonical>
I nearly lost my mind
<gorgonical>
I was dumping userspace stacks before launch, playing around with task order and shit
<gorgonical>
Was a nightmare
<gorgonical>
oh that's why this was a problem -- we aren't using the asid field when we change ttbr0_el1
<gorgonical>
So everything is probably considered asid 0
<gorgonical>
I'm gonna look more at this tomorrow, but the semantics around asids in the manual where you have to select what ASID is "in use" makes me think you're supposed to mark kernel pages as global, then just leave tcr_el1.a1=0 forever, right?
<gorgonical>
That way, when you switch ttbr_el0 on context switch the tlb ignores the old entries with the wrong asids. And then you don't need to flush them unless you modify them while that task is switched out or something
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<zid>
I'll TLB your face if you don't normalize being very nice to me all of the time
<heat>
new glibc is out
<heat>
A new tunable, glibc.cpu.plt_rewrite, can be used to enable PLT
<heat>
rewrite on x86-64. When enabled with non-lazy binding, the dynamic
<heat>
linker will rewrite indirect branches in PLT with direct branches.
<heat>
great shitten
<gog>
yooooooo
<gog>
LD_BIND_NOW
<nikolar>
Neat
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<Mondenkind>
i kept asking why no one did that
<Mondenkind>
and zid kept giving me bullshit reasons
<Mondenkind>
turns out the reason was just 'they didn't feel like it'
<zid>
or rather, it's a complex thing that takes more effort than not doing it
<zid>
you have to go forwards through history, not backwards
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<Mondenkind>
zid please don't try to pull the woll over my eyes you can't change the fact that you lied to me and I will continue to hold this against you and bring it up every time you try to gain any credibility😘
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<zid>
I don't lie.
<sham1>
Yes you do
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<zid>
I have never lied
<sbalmos>
you just lied there!
<zid>
No, that's circular reasoning
<zid>
It's only false if I have ever lied before, which I haven't. Therefore it's true, therefore it's not a lie, thus I continue to have never lied.
<sbalmos>
did I pay for the 5-minute or the 15-minute argument?
<zid>
You forgot to pay at all actually
<sbalmos>
that's a lie!
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<gorgonical>
reading the logs gave me an interesting thought
<gorgonical>
I'm not a fatalist and believe a lot of how things are in CS is a confluence of both design and chance, but mostly chance
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<gorgonical>
So, if you could change one status quo about how computers work at the moment, like for example that one of the non-intel archs from the 90s ended up dominant, what would your change be?
<gorgonical>
what's your like "I wish betamax had won"
<zid>
That the web never went past 'DHTML'.
<zid>
It instantly fixes the web, but it also directly gives me a faster better cpu, as a knock-on effect.
<nortti>
why does that lead to faster CPUs?
<gorgonical>
because the browser isn't taking up so much, and effort isn't focused on the web?
<heat>
maybe i wish that linux and windows didn't exist
<zid>
intel's main customer is datacenters
<zid>
datacenters want cpus that run 'microservices' and masses of VMs etc very well
<zid>
that means $8000 xeons with 256 cores
<zid>
for running webservers and docker
<gorgonical>
heat: what would have filled that gap then?
<nortti>
netbsd and os/2
<gorgonical>
it's just the 90s with big blue forever
<zid>
pretty sure we'd just be running unix
<zid>
an expensive, paid, unix
<heat>
NETBSD!
<gorgonical>
sounds pretty legit honestly
<heat>
gorgonical, i don't know but i'd like to see some variety
<heat>
even if they all ended up being slightly different brands of UNIX
<zid>
variety is the spice of 'nothing works with anything else'
<zid>
remember the 80s video game market? :P
<heat>
no, i don't, i'm 21 zid
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<zid>
"This is my game, I wrote an amstrad, spectrum, apple ][ge super turbo, commode and amiga version"
<gorgonical>
heat was born in this millenium. floppies are ancient tech
<zid>
"Sadly this is only 30% market penetration"
<heat>
yeah but in theory X/Open, POSIX all came along
<nortti>
for me, I think I'd like short-range wireless comms to get better faster, meaning there was not a point where it made sense to upload your files to the other side of the world in order to then download them right back on a device that sits right next to your initial one
<heat>
so standardiation in UNIX was possible
<zid>
PC came along and killed it, and now all we have to care about is whether it runs on 9x *and* NT
<gorgonical>
nortti: it still is in a bad situation
<nortti>
yeah, the tech is there but the ux is not
<zid>
Oh if we want something *really* petty, I wish unity or unreal or whatever it is everybody's using these days, didn't seemingly default to lowering animation fps at long ranges
<heat>
fwiw i don't really want to kill windows as much as in this alternative scenario, if linux didn't take up all of their space, windows would
<heat>
and that's boring
<nortti>
so what you end up using is bluetooth in the year of our lord 2024
<gorgonical>
nortti: it reminds me of when I played watchdogs and they suggested that chicago responds to a global cyberattack by building a city-wide intranet that you have to physically be in chicago to access
<nortti>
when you could be using an ad-hoc wifi network for the data transfer or something instead
<gorgonical>
And the city goes all cyberpunk digital. I thought something like city-wide WAN would be cool
<heat>
oh, i dont want to be that guy but
<nortti>
I think they have (had?) some of those in cuba
<heat>
what if itanium
<gorgonical>
nortti: I have greek friends that tell me athens also had something like this too
<heat>
it may sound like simple ITAAAANIUUUUUUUUUUM cj, but what if the other CPU vendors smelled blood in the water
<heat>
vs x86 dominating completely
<gorgonical>
It's not an insane thought. Considering how much pain and chaos speculative execution has wound up bringing us
<bslsk05>
'The Internet in Cuba: A Story of Community Resilience' by [idk] (00:58:29)
<heat>
cuba isn't real
<heat>
don't believe anything coming out of ""finland""
<gorgonical>
chaos computing club talk?? ooooh
<gog>
BeOS
<gog>
BeOS should have been the OS of the future
<heat>
WHAT IF GOG WAS THE CEO OF AMAZON
<nortti>
< gog> BeOS should have been the OS of the future ← imagining people on non-beos systems cursing all the not-quite-unix-compatible software
<heat>
9plan vibes
<heat>
plan9*
<gorgonical>
heat: I'm no expert but recently I've heard people suggesting that if we didn't have the easy alternative of OoO and speculation we could have actually developed the compilers for itanium
<heat>
it's not that itanium wasn't compilable-for, it's that compilers back then suuuuuuuuuuuuuucked
<gorgonical>
gog: you could have named the company lilliput
<zid>
taken sorry
<gorgonical>
not in the 90s it wasnt
<gorgonical>
I bet
<zid>
yes it was
<Ermine>
what if plan9 succeeded
<netbsduser>
gorgonical: they are not particularly comparable
<netbsduser>
c is freewheeling
<netbsduser>
ada is not
<heat>
what if everyone was running musl
<zid>
(There was a lilliput play group in the UK in the early 90s)
<netbsduser>
moreover C is the Unix language and Unix is the C operating system
<heat>
now that's the true whatif althist scenario
<gorgonical>
computing would be much more swole
<Ermine>
dalias wouldn't be such stubborn I guess
<netbsduser>
everywhere C is used that isn't Unix is a place that has made concessions to Unix and taken one of its defining elements
<heat>
would bryan cantrill have kissed so many girls even when using musl
<Ermine>
no
<heat>
or, consider this: maybe women are naturally attracted by musl users
<netbsduser>
(if anyone doubts, look at how a restricted subset of an ancient version of the Unix signals mechanism is encoded even into the ISO standard)
<heat>
by? probably to
<heat>
yeah attracted to
<Ermine>
heat: I can confirm that girls are not attracted by musl
<netbsduser>
mueslibc, the popular swiss breakfast libc
<heat>
libdemc
<heat>
sponsored by nick clegg
<Ermine>
rather, they decided to be just friends
<heat>
u ok bod
<heat>
bud
<gorgonical>
heat: one of my biggest pet peeves is people who say "we replace x by y" instead of with. It mirrors the passive of "x is replaced by y" but isn't the right usage in the active
* heat
hug Ermine
<zid>
gorgonical: mine is 'on accident'
<zid>
should be by, or accidentally
<gorgonical>
netbsduser: this is a genius name for a new libc
<zid>
*shakes fist at americans*
<gorgonical>
and to be clear I mean when people argue that by is more correct. L2 speakers get a pass mostly
<zid>
like americans
<gorgonical>
I can't speak portuguese so you guys get slack
<Ermine>
heat, thx, no, need, "just friends" part is an exaggeration
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<Ermine>
but really, people usually yawn when I start talking about linux, yet alone musl
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<heat>
ermine on a date: "do not talk about __dns_parse, do not talk about __dns_parse, do not talk about __dns_parse"
<heat>
"hey have you seen the __dns_parse code? it's cuhrayzeee!"
<nikolar>
So hot
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<Ermine>
^ two glasses of wine later
<heat>
"you see, they use all of this obfuscated code because they refuse to work with endianness, because endianness doesn't really exist as you can type-pun everything with char *. do you know about type punning and strict aliasing?"
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<Ermine>
tbh I didn't get strict aliasing
<heat>
i merely pretend i understand strict aliasing
<heat>
worst case union-up
<nikolapdp>
Ermine are you asking me on a date
<Ermine>
i know that c oldfags get trigerred by it
<heat>
don't say that word
<heat>
it's offensive
<Ermine>
which one?
<zid>
I love how loosey-goosey the spec is about whether type punning unions is UB or not
<heat>
the "c" one obviously
<Ermine>
lmao
<heat>
("oldf*gs")
<zid>
I didn't even notice
<netbsduser>
Ermine: it's for people who want to use C in strange ways
<nortti>
< zid> I love how loosey-goosey the spec is about whether type punning unions is UB or not ← where, if anywhere, is it for sure defined?
<netbsduser>
it's meant to be a systems language not FORTRAN
<Ermine>
well, okay
<nikolapdp>
zid wait i thought that was perfectly defined
<zid>
see
<zid>
nortti adamant it isn't, nikolapdp adamant it is :p
<Ermine>
google translate suggests me "old-timer"
<nortti>
nah, I'm just asking if it is defined for sure anywhere
<netbsduser>
i am convinced much misery has came from people expecting C to be like FORTRAN instead of using number crunching languages for number cruching and systems languages for systems
<zid>
"You can't read through a member you didn't write to" and then later goes "actually you can but conversion rules apply" etc
<sham1>
Number crunching system, obviously
<Ermine>
on my faculty they taught fortran previously, but now they teach C
<nikolapdp>
yso what's the proper way to get a uint32_t from a float
<nikolapdp>
as in bit represantation
<sham1>
memcpy
<nikolapdp>
ah yeaht
<Ermine>
-fno-strict-aliasing
<nortti>
how do float formats interact with endianness actually?
<nikolapdp>
i am not sure
<nikolapdp>
they follow ints maybe?
<sham1>
You'd hope that they follow the system endianness and pray
<zid>
little or riot
<sham1>
They don't necessarily do that, but you'd sure hope they would
<zid>
(the system endianness better be little)
<zid>
big endian floats exist
<zid>
they exist on systems known as "fucking stupid" ones
<zid>
nortti: C99 says you can do it, unless they're different sizes, then the bytes are 'unspecified', but where it says it, is in an annex, which is not normative, and should only be there to clarify the text
<zid>
..which says the opposite
<zid>
It also doesn't give any rules for *which* bytes overlap
<nikolapdp>
zid are you talking about unions
<zid>
(sort of like bitfields)
<zid>
yes
<zid>
talking about [19:39] <nortti> < zid> I love how loosey-goosey the spec is about whether type punning unions is UB or not
<nikolapdp>
is it undefined or implementation defined
<zid>
which is you talking about me talking about type punning through unions
<zid>
nikolapdp: the conversion is IDB at best, unspecified in practice, fine in every implementation
<zid>
:D
<nikolapdp>
peak c standardization
<zid>
They gave up after C89
<sham1>
> 107)If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the
<sham1>
object the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new
<sham1>
type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called type punning). This might be a non-value representation.
<zid>
and just phoned in some small broken updates
<sham1>
Frick
<zid>
When a value is stored in a member of an object of union type, the bytes of the object representation that do not correspond to that member but do correspond to other members take unspecified values.
<sham1>
This is from what we'd hope would become... C24
<zid>
is the other important part
<sham1>
(Well, C23, but it's not 2023 anymore now is it)
<nikolapdp>
sham1 is that the new wording for c2x
<zid>
It doesn't say which bytes overlap with which other bytes, so the IDB might make the 'sensible' approach, 'completely unspecified'
<sham1>
Similar wording exists in C99, C11 and C18
<zid>
so you can't rely on it for anything even with it being IDB, woot
<sham1>
I just used the most recent one because that makes sense
<zid>
sham1: did they move that to the actual text yet?
<zid>
In C99 when it was introduced it was in Annex.. D? E?
<zid>
D F?
<nikolapdp>
zid do annexes take precedence over the spec proper
<zid>
no, they're non-normative
<sham1>
It's a footnote in 6.5.2.3 Structure and union members, paragraph 3
<zid>
they're to clarify only
<sham1>
Footnote 107
<zid>
but it 'clarifies' it by saying something that the spec never said one way or the other
<gorgonical>
when considering the full complexity of the C specification it sort of makes me wonder if there's actually not that much more cognitive load to using a language with much more mathematical underpinning rules
<gorgonical>
like haskell
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<zid>
C's standard is actually incredibly short and easy to read
<zid>
It just has some weird minor gaps in it that are *incredibly* important when you want to do something fucked up
<sham1>
Yeah, a lot of it is the standard library
<zid>
given how aggressively a compiler will fuck you over if you disagree with said compiler on said interpretation
<nortti>
iirc common lisp is about the same size of spec as c89
<zid>
honestly it might be best to go by the defect report
<zid>
which suggests 'we intended it to be legal the entire time' is the correct interpretation
<nikolapdp>
zid: c99 does use that exact wording
<nikolapdp>
so it should be legal
<netbsduser>
zid: yeah, C spec makes sense if viewed with the knowledge that it was designed to allow weird C to LISP translators for LISP machines, with LISP objects backing data rather than any sort of conventional address space
<nikolapdp>
at least in the final draft
<nitrix>
The gaps of C90 have been addressed in later C99, C11, C17 and C23.
<nortti>
really though, why are we debating the specifics of c99 wording? I don't think any major compiler supports c99 specifically but not c11
<nitrix>
People think they can just stay on older standards because they don't want "the newer features", but there's practically no features, it's mostly all verbiage to clarify things for implementation writers and users.
<netbsduser>
nitrix: the purpose of the spec *is* its gaps
<netbsduser>
it's meant to allow weird cosplays-at-C to call themselves ISO C
<zid>
nitrix: -std=c99 *allows* VLAs though, for example, which you may definitely not want.
<zid>
Or mixing declarations and code.
<zid>
Or // style comments
<zid>
or () to mean unspecified args (C23 changes this I think?)
<zid>
etc
<nortti>
isn't () for unspecified c89?
<zid>
yes
<zid>
Sometimes the semantic changes are literally just noise that is going to un-warning something in your code, unfortunately
<sham1>
What's wrong with // comments
<zid>
Disgusting C++ comments, in my glorious C code? Heathen.
<zid>
(I was just giving examples)
<Mondenkind>
I only comment with #if 0
<sham1>
Yeah but I've heard people actually talking about how they don't like //
<zid>
(I don't use //)
<nikolapdp>
neither do i
<nikolapdp>
only for temporary comments such as TODO
<zid>
Almost all of my code compiles fine as C89
<zid>
why ruin it over comments
<sham1>
I'm the opposite. I don't like /* */. Hell, I even have a hot take about this stuff: I don't like multiline comments
<zid>
I occasionally bust out a designated initializer or something, if it makes it easier/cleaner
<Mondenkind>
legend has it that if you use c++ comments bjarne stroustrup will come to your house and turn all your c functions into nested variadic template prxvalue references
<netbsduser>
i don't use // because it's not in the NetBSD style guide, which is great because it's descended directly from the style of kernighan and ritchie themselves
<zid>
Mondenkind: Correct.
<nikolapdp>
yes, spare the compiler from reading comments by getting rid of them in the preprocessor
<sham1>
Can't even do KNF with clang-format smh
<nikolapdp>
KNF?
<zid>
kernighan nudges fudge
<sham1>
Kernel Normal Form. E.g. the NetBSD style, but variations of the KNF are in OpenBSD and also IIRC in FreeBSD
<netbsduser>
the SunOS C style guide is also a close relative
<netbsduser>
they are all good and valid styles because they are all descendents of the original traditions, they just evolved a little separately
<sham1>
I like the Linux style. Also related to the KNF via K&R, but doesn't have some of the silly parts like tabs inside the definitions of struct members
<sham1>
Well, a style akin to the Linux style. I like my 8-column tabs
<nikolapdp>
tabs are superior to spaces
<nikolapdp>
hot take amirite
<sham1>
Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment
<nortti>
^
<nikolapdp>
yes
<nortti>
alas depending on their age, text editors either want to convert spaces to tabs or tabs to spaces unless you're careful
<nikolapdp>
just use vim
<nikolapdp>
it does the right thing (tm)
<nortti>
it's in the former category
<sham1>
Emacs doesn't reindent unless you tell it to
<nikolapdp>
well depends on how you set it actually
<nikolapdp>
by default it uses tabs though
<gorgonical>
sham1: this policy means that you can only align things within the same indentation level
<gorgonical>
right?
<sham1>
Yes
<netbsduser>
when would you want to do otherwise?
<gorgonical>
which at least in C is a reasonable rule for when you would do that
<nortti>
nikolapdp: it still has stuff like << or defined in terms of spaces, with tab mapped to ts spaces
<nortti>
-or
<kof123>
> one status quo about how computers work at the moment octets never caught on, everyone is on DSPs now
<nikolapdp>
what do you mean missing, we're right there
<zid>
nope, there's a hole, no serbia or ablania
<zid>
or montenegro
<gorgonical>
it's slovenia that's missing
<gorgonical>
it looks like
<gorgonical>
oh wait is that croatia
<gorgonical>
hard to see
<nikolapdp>
no, croatia
<nikolapdp>
and a part of serbia you know as kosovo
<gorgonical>
part of me wants to move to croatia/serbia and work remotely because things are affordable there
<gorgonical>
seemingly affordable*
<zid>
you can't do that, you'd have to put up with access to healthcare
<zid>
untenable
<gorgonical>
i'm american, i don't use my healthcare anyway
<nikolapdp>
you'd have enough money for private healthcare, you're covered
<zid>
both of you missed the joke
<zid>
grats
<gorgonical>
i did not in fact
<nikolapdp>
let's go gorg
<gorgonical>
I will happily learn whatever dialect of serbocroatomontenegrobosnian the locals would like
<zid>
I don't even know what language family serbian is in
<nikolapdp>
you probably meant to say serbian
<gorgonical>
south slavic, indo euro
<nikolapdp>
zid: south slavic
<zid>
south-western
<gorgonical>
nikolapdp: a better question than national dialect level is how do you decide whether to learn shto/kak/chakavian?
<gorgonical>
kajk*
<zid>
serbian -> west -> south -> slavic -> balto-slatic -> PIE
<nikolapdp>
well if you want to learn serbian, you just go to shtokavian
<nikolapdp>
if you want to learn croatian, you go to kajkavian
<zid>
what about serbo-croatian
<nikolapdp>
chakavian is sort of a minority dialect
<nikolapdp>
it's not even that well known
<gorgonical>
mm. Wikipedia doesn't really clearly communicate the relationship
<nikolapdp>
what exact relationship
<gorgonical>
the one you just outlined
<zid>
english is... english -> anglo-frisian -> west -> germanic -> pie
<nikolapdp>
well i am the resident serb here, i'd know
<nikolapdp>
lol
<gorgonical>
indeed
<gorgonical>
would be really fun to learn shtokavian and go to austria to find the minority there that speak it
<zid>
Albanian is the weird freaky isolate
<gorgonical>
SHQIP
<nikolapdp>
gross
<zid>
Do you make fun of albanian, niko
<gorgonical>
Why would they use the q liek that
<nikolapdp>
all the time lol
<nikolapdp>
them and bulgarians
<zid>
for being a weird isolate, or because they're albanian
<sham1>
At least Albanian is Indo-European
<zid>
barely
<nikolapdp>
albanian
<gorgonical>
holy shit it is
<gorgonical>
I was sure it was thought an isolate
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<zid>
english is... english -> anglo-frisian -> west -> germanic -> pie, albanian is albanian -> pie
<nikolapdp>
sham1 bulgarian is too
<nikolapdp>
just the name isn't
<sham1>
Still more than Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Turkish, Basque or whatever
<zid>
finnish and hungarian
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<zid>
are the non pies
<sham1>
Basque is a proper language isolate
<nikolapdp>
zid none of those sham1 said are pie
<sham1>
And Turkish is, well, Turkic
<zid>
basque is just spanish without a lisp
<zid>
fite me
<nikolapdp>
oh yeah we make fun of them too
<nikolapdp>
turks
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<zid>
Can you imagine how shit the spanish must have been at invading iberia
<zid>
if they managed to leave a language isolate around
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<gorgonical>
angry mountain people tend to cling to their ways
<zid>
pie sweeps across the continent, extinguishing thousands of isolated languages
<nikolapdp>
lol i was about to same the samet hing
<zid>
spain can't deal with basque
<gorgonical>
the basque people invented the best alcoholic mix ever
<nikolapdp>
what mix would that be
<sham1>
Blame the Romans for leaving the Basque there
<zid>
vodka and heroin
<gorgonical>
kalimotxo. equal parts dry red wine and coke
<zid>
nah vodka red bull is like 8000% better than that
<sham1>
...angry mountain people indeed
<gorgonical>
I mean, look at Georgian, Armenian, etc in the Caucasus
<zid>
can we not
<gorgonical>
#osdev, where we talk about foreign languages
<sham1>
Nagorno-Karabakh!
<zid>
I'd learn serbian if it used the alphabet
<nikolapdp>
gvprtskvani
<sham1>
So yeah, let's not talk about the Caucaus. That's even more like a thunderdome than the Balkans
<nikolapdp>
zid: we actually use both cyrillic and latin
<nikolapdp>
sadly
<zid>
why is serbian third world niko
<nikolapdp>
what do you mean
<zid>
russian aligned is third world
<zid>
that's what that term means
<gorgonical>
that's second
<nikolapdp>
yeah that's second
<gorgonical>
second was ussr-aligned
<zid>
shh
<nikolapdp>
but back then third wrold meant neither ussr or nato aligned
<gorgonical>
technically jamaica could be considered a third-world country
<nikolapdp>
and we were neither, thus third world
<zid>
serbian isn't really russia aligned, so he's third world
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<sham1>
Finland, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland were third world
<zid>
latin and russian mixture
<nikolapdp>
zid: we're trying to be neutral
<zid>
makes you third world for sure
<zid>
neutral = pansies
<gorgonical>
nikolapdp: serbia, the country that superloves russia right now? that one?
<nikolapdp>
wouldn't say superloves
<zid>
whaa, shooting russians is too hard, they're starving and have no guns though but it's still too hard
<nikolapdp>
what
<sham1>
Eh, the Ukrainians are doing that just fine
<zid>
talking about ww2 serbians
<zid>
russians never have food or guns, easy mistake to make
<sham1>
The region formerly known as Yugoslavia wasn't invaded by the Soviets
<nikolapdp>
ww2 serbians were being murdered by the germans, croats, soviets, hungariams, bulgarians
<sham1>
They liberated themselves
<nikolapdp>
sham1 that's a very long story
<zid>
russian puppet state you say
<sham1>
Tito famously didn't want to be a puppet of the Soviet Man of Steel
<nikolapdp>
yeah exactly
<zid>
smh believing latin-washed history
<sham1>
I've gotten annoyingly antiquated with Cold War history
<nikolapdp>
why annoyingly
<zid>
Did you get to the part where jfk was a tsundere and wanted senpai to notice him so he stopped the cuban missle base yet
<zid>
that's the best episode
<sham1>
It's a tad too recent
<zid>
oh sorry spoilers
<nikolapdp>
zid: you have to have spoiler warnings
<nikolapdp>
cmon
<sham1>
Cold War history is still politically relevant
<gorgonical>
nikolapdp: do you know the kraut youtube channel?
<sham1>
While stuff like Rome really isn't, despite what some people might want you to think
<nikolapdp>
gorgonical: i don't think i do
<zid>
sham1 you say that like the west isn't about to fall to the sea peoples
<nikolapdp>
kek rome didn't fall to the sea peoples
<gorgonical>
he has an interesting video suggesting that the next sphere of development in europe is the development and integration of the balkans into a new "power center"
<nikolapdp>
that would be minoans
<zid>
wat
<nikolapdp>
gorgonical: oh i may have seen that video
<zid>
who gives a shit about crete
<nikolapdp>
zid: fine egyptians
<sham1>
I don't think there are enough Greeks to displace for that
<zid>
all of the med got sea people'd during the bronze age collapse
<vdamewood>
The big bird (Abelardo) is American Big Bird's cousin.
<zid>
middle bottom is dutch big bird etc
<gorgonical>
WHAT
<nikolapdp>
huh
<sham1>
:O
<gorgonical>
why have you done this to me
<vdamewood>
The Mexican big bird, is, I mean.
<zid>
you're welcome
<gorgonical>
is this because of language-color associations? could they just not get yellow fur elsewhere???
<vdamewood>
Okay, six big birds are neat!
<zid>
big bird is my nickname for nikolapdp's mother, also
<nikolapdp>
zid that's rude
<sham1>
It's probably colour associations, it'd be weird if they couldn't get the same colour costumes if they wanted to
<vdamewood>
gorgonical: The Mexican one (bottom right), is a species found in Mexico.
<nikolapdp>
i thought you proposed to me
<gorgonical>
aah
<zid>
nikolapdp: not my fault she keeps texting me
<nikolapdp>
that's not her then
<vdamewood>
I've only ever watched American and Mexican Sesame Street, though. So I don't know about the others.
<nikolapdp>
i've never watched sesame street
<vdamewood>
aif it was just color availability though, then why do they have different shapes, too?
<zid>
did you have the fucked up soviet cartoons
<zid>
the peter wolf one or whatever it was
<nikolapdp>
no
<sham1>
I've also never seen Sesame Street. I only know that Big Bird was supposed to go along in the Challenger mission
<sham1>
Dodged a bullet there
<zid>
phew
<nikolapdp>
i was watching cartoons way after that would've been the case anyway
<sham1>
Would have bee a loss of talent if nothing else
<nikolapdp>
but my parents were watching western cartoons too
<vdamewood>
sham1: Instead, we sacrificed an innocent teacher.
<sham1>
nikolapdp: oh there's no shame in that
<nikolapdp>
in what
<sham1>
In watching cartoons
<zid>
nikolapdp is like, 13?
<nikolapdp>
13 + 10 yes
<zid>
same thing
<nikolapdp>
and how old are you zid
<vdamewood>
Is mayonaise a cartoon?
<gorgonical>
Do you guys have nu pogodi, nikola
<zid>
13 + 10 +.. 11?
<nikolapdp>
what does +.. mean
<zid>
that I can't rememer how old I am
<zid>
or how to add numbers
<nikolapdp>
yeah taht happens with age
<vdamewood>
I was 30 once. I know that.
<zid>
nikolapdp: I am about to privately message you a dirty joke
<gorgonical>
I'm about to be almost 30 once, vdamewood
<vdamewood>
gorgonical: You should try for twice.
<gorgonical>
That'd be a pretty cool trick to manage
<vdamewood>
I was almost 30 once, then I managed to avoid it. Now I'm almost 30 again.
<nikolapdp>
what kind of dark magic is that
<zid>
I foolishly decided today I'd be the youngest I'd ever be again
<nikolapdp>
skill issue
<sham1>
New reprints
<vdamewood>
People tell me to act my age, but the problem is I've never been this age before.
<zid>
weirdly I also decided to be older than I'd ever been today
<vdamewood>
I want my grave to say "Yesterday was the last day of the rest of my life."
<zid>
My grave says "I told you I was sick"
<nikolapdp>
but you'd be dead
<nikolapdp>
zid why don't you just decide you won't die
<zid>
cus I decided to get sick
<zid>
more fun
<gorgonical>
I plan on ship-of-theseusing my consciousness into a computer to avoid any philosophical problems before I die
<nikolapdp>
ambitious
<zid>
My real plan
<zid>
is to die in the resource wars of 2040
<sham1>
Oh you could still be ship-of-thesius'd
<nikolapdp>
zid: nothing like glorius death in battle
<zid>
oh no, I won't be fighting
<gorgonical>
is it glorious to die over a bottle of water
<zid>
I'll just be like, displaced
<sham1>
And you'd still have philosophical questions
<zid>
and die in a ditch somewhere
<nikolapdp>
well that's boring
<zid>
My ideal retirement would be to develop a heroin habit at around age 80
<nikolapdp>
why heroin
<zid>
seems fun?
<gorgonical>
fun?
<sham1>
Does it?
<gorgonical>
I don't know that I've ever heard someone characterize heroin as fun
<zid>
you think heroin addicts do it cus it's bad?
<nikolapdp>
no they do it because they are adddicted
<sham1>
I think they do it because they're addicted to heroin
<nikolapdp>
thus heroin addicts
<zid>
wat
<gog>
my wife had an issue with opiate dependency in her young adulthood
<zid>
they just wake up one day, addicted to heroin?
<gog>
she kicked after a week of horrible detox
<nikolapdp>
well like the first few times it's great
<nikolapdp>
but then no
<sham1>
Maybe there was heroin among their other drugs
<zid>
you get high on it for a few months *first*
<zid>
then you realize you are addicted
<sham1>
How do you know
<gorgonical>
sure sure, but my point is I don't think people describe the high as "fun" for heroin
<zid>
because.. drugs is a very normal subject to know basic things about?
<zid>
gorgonical: i'd consider bliss to be fun
<gorgonical>
gog: very good. I've seen people close to me struggle with it for years and years. I'm happy to hear that
<zid>
oh god, is gog's wife a goth gf? jelly
<gog>
she's lucky and had a lot of help from friends
<vdamewood>
"I get by with a little help from my friend. I [don't] get high with a little help form my friend."
<gog>
yes
<vdamewood>
friends*
<gog>
i never touched the stuff, i know all too well how that'd go for me
<zid>
what's the robot girl in bladerunner called
<zid>
pris
<zid>
gog your wife in my head is pris from bladerunner
<gog>
nice
<vdamewood>
I've taken opiates twice. I had kidney stones, and a prescription. Oxycodone is the most boring drug I've ever taken.
<gorgonical>
the ballerina one?
<zid>
at the end when her makeup is all fucked up
<gorgonical>
yeah
<vdamewood>
ANd I've taken some boring medications, Like paracetamol.
<zid>
paracetamol dangerous, don't take that shit
<vdamewood>
zid: I still have a liver.
<gorgonical>
honestly it's wild you can buy that shit otc in unlimited quantity
<zid>
if people took paracetamol like they took heroin they'd all be dead instead of addicts
<zid>
you can't here gorg
<zid>
cus it's so good for suicide (and by good I mean terrible)
<gorgonical>
you guys are smarter than us
<zid>
paracetamol suicide is great, you wake up in hospital 3 days later feeling fine, then a doctor comes and tells you your organs have all failed and you're dead next week
<nikolapdp>
not sure that's what i'd call great
<zid>
nikolapdp: You need an English<->Serbian dictionary
<zid>
great means awful
<sham1>
That's why you use Paracetamol in moderation
<sham1>
Strictly within the bounds
<zid>
I just don't use it
<zid>
at all
<vdamewood>
zhiayang: How the hell would that get a decent suicide?
<vdamewood>
sham1: ^
<zid>
it's bad at any dose at any frequency, you just hope to use it infrequently enough that the damage mostly heals up first
<sham1>
Well yeah, it's not like I use it like candy
<vdamewood>
Candycetemol
<nikolapdp>
lol
<vdamewood>
*crunch* *crunch*
<sham1>
I mostly prefer ibuprofen
<zid>
woo ibuprofen
<vdamewood>
Why not both?
<zid>
almost all the pain I ever get is from inflammation
<zid>
so ibuproefn is the shit
<vdamewood>
Kill your liver and kidneys all at once!
<gorgonical>
I prefer to just suffer
<gorgonical>
unironically
<zid>
I also do that, in practice
<sham1>
Same
<nikolapdp>
spot the american ^
<zid>
spot the adhd
<nikolapdp>
lol
<sham1>
But I've had times when I felt that suffering was way too much
<zid>
"I should take an ibuprofen, I have a headache coming." *2 hours later* "I have a headache, I should take an ibuprofen" *1 hour later* "Fine, this sucks, taking an ibuprofen"
<sham1>
Way too much suffering
<zid>
me_irl ^
<sham1>
I've stopped having migraines which is absolutely amazing
<sham1>
Nowadays I'm mostly just tired because my sleep schedule and such is terrible
<nikolapdp>
relatable
<gorgonical>
despite having a pretty irregular sleep schedule I am lucky to not struggle to sleep
<gorgonical>
being a phd student permits this bad behavior
<nikolapdp>
what's your phd in
<gorgonical>
operating systems
<nikolapdp>
lol fair enougj
<gorgonical>
lol
<gorgonical>
specifically anyway it's trusted operating systems in multi-tenant environments
<gorgonical>
inventing new shit in systems these days is basically impossible so all research is about developing new, novel capabilities
<nikolapdp>
by inventing new shit, what do you mean exactly
<gorgonical>
what's the next concept like a microkernel, or virtual memory, or privilege separation?
<sham1>
I'm supposedly a masters' student. But I also have a dayjob so I can't exactly have my "preferred" sleep schedule
<nikolapdp>
and i am a bachelor's student and i have a day job
<sham1>
Honestly, if I could, I'd probably just be nocturnal
<nikolapdp>
how would that wok
<zid>
you..
<zid>
sleep during the day
<zid>
Thank you for coming to my ted talk
<nikolapdp>
sham1 did you mean that in general, or in the context of your job or master's or whatever
<sham1>
In general
<nikolapdp>
yes, thank you zid, very informative
<sham1>
Waking up in the morning is a struggle for me
<nikolapdp>
again, relatable
<sham1>
Well rather, waking up early
<nikolapdp>
i actually slept in for an exam this morning
<nikolapdp>
oops
<zid>
I worked nights at one point
<gog>
oops
<zid>
but I inverted my sleep/wake offset relative to work hours
<zid>
way better
<heat>
hello im uh
<heat>
im uh
<heat>
back
<zid>
wake up in early afternoon
<nikolapdp>
hello heat
<heat>
did you miss me
<zid>
fuck around playing games or whatever, go to work
<zid>
get home and go straight to bed
<heat>
because if you did, that's pretty fucking weird
<nikolapdp>
no we hate you heat
<zid>
^
<heat>
good
<sham1>
I don't hate you heat
<sham1>
It's good to be weird like thatr
<zid>
loathe is too hard to spell
<nikolapdp>
lol
<nikolapdp>
indeed
<zid>
nikolapdp how good is your accent, do you sound super fucking balkan
<nikolapdp>
i don't know if you could pinpoint my accent to the balkan's
<nikolapdp>
but it's very obviously non-native
<heat>
<zid> better than heat's though, he braces around one line statements <-- err, good question, sometimes i do, sometimes i don't
<zid>
nikolapdp: So super fucking balkan, got it
<sham1>
You should
<heat>
i tend to prefer to braces, but sometimes i have whole vibes where i do braces
<nikolapdp>
lol sure zid
<heat>
s/prefer to/prefer not to do/
<sham1>
Either you have a language with the off-side rule or you delimit all your blocks
<nikolapdp>
i just don't do braces for single statements
<heat>
the kernel normal form is fucking awful btw
<zid>
I don't even know what serbians sound like, I'd just 'generic russian nonsense accent' if I had to do an impression
<nikolapdp>
oh we don't sound like russians really
<zid>
yea but you've heard a serbian before
<zid>
I hope
<heat>
any one of the BSDs is like "what if we wrote C, but in an awful way"
<nikolapdp>
i have yes
<nikolapdp>
kind of hard to miss in serbia
<gorgonical>
I had a balkan professor and his accent was very strange
<nikolapdp>
see
<nikolapdp>
was he serbian
<gorgonical>
I don't remember, trying to figure it out
<heat>
no, he was turkish
<sham1>
Don't go there
<nikolapdp>
don't think that's what people mean when you say balkan
<zid>
balkan microstates = greece, turkey, macedonia, serbia
<nikolapdp>
turkey is a microstate??
<zid>
It will be when I'm done with it
<nikolapdp>
lol that's the spirit
<sham1>
Well the Balkan part of Türkiye is
<nikolapdp>
but it's not a state
<heat>
turkey is a european balkan state
<heat>
heck, it's an eastern european balkan state
<zid>
the anatolian part is the irrelevent part
<sham1>
Yeah, it doesn't have the City of Constantine in it
<heat>
istanbul
<zid>
It's like claiming people from the UK live in the mediterranean just off the coast of spain
<zid>
technically true, but isn't what we mean
<nikolapdp>
lo
<nikolapdp>
lol
<heat>
the hagia sophia is my favourite mosque
<gorgonical>
i'm struggling to find this guy
<sham1>
What would you call Gibraltar then
<gorgonical>
he was so bad he was there only a year
<zid>
sham1: The irrelevent bit
<nikolapdp>
oh lol, then i hope he wasn't a serb
<zid>
It's the smartest bit of spain, though
<heat>
the most important part of the UK is the isle of man
<nikolapdp>
heat: is there some beef between the portugese and the spanish
<heat>
that's definitely what i mean when i talk about the UK being an island
<heat>
yes and no
<zid>
manx best english language
<zid>
portugal is the bit of iberia nobody wanted
<nikolapdp>
lol
<heat>
that's not true
<zid>
So it's like having someone living in the shitty house at the end of the street
<sham1>
Clearly Portugal wanted it
<heat>
spain wanted it, and THEY LOST, TAKE AN L, LMAO
<sham1>
That's why they got a bunch of English knights there to crusade for it
<nikolapdp>
lol
<zid>
you don't want to own it, but you know the people who do live there aren't going to be aweome people
<heat>
then france wanted it, AND THEY LOST, TAKE AN L, LMAO, BIG UP DUKE OF WELLINGTON
<zid>
portugal and UK besties
<zid>
trashfires gotta look out for each other
<heat>
yeah, except in WW2 where the allies had a secret plan to invade the azores if need be
<zid>
we had secret plans to do all sorts of shit, if needed
<heat>
rishi sunak is working on the secret operation to reconquer the british empire
<zid>
we had a secret plan to set off underground nukes and stuff
<zid>
buy it back, more like
<nikolapdp>
what was that about
<nikolapdp>
the nuke thing
<zid>
"bet this'll be a laugh"
<sham1>
Nuclear landmines?
<zid>
Did you know we nuked america
<heat>
upvote
<sham1>
With chickens inside the mines to keep the mines warm
<sham1>
Project Blue Peacock
<nikolapdp>
i could get behind nuking america
<gorgonical>
holy shit I found his name in my archived notes