klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<zid> nikolapdp: I heard someone speaking serbian :o
<zid> It sounds like polish to me, you're welcome
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<nikolar> zid: hehe where did you find them
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<bslsk05> ​www.reddit.com: Blocked
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<sham1> Marketing: it works
<zid`> nikolar: skibidi toilet
<nikolapdp> hello to you too zid`
<Cindy> g-man toilet is the best skibidi toilet of all
<Cindy> but where's gordan toilet
<gog> i like the cameraheads
<zid`> You asked
<nikolapdp> that's true, i did
<zid`> Apparently it was an anti-bullying ad frm serbian TV
<nikolapdp> oh lol
<nikolapdp> those are cringe
<zid`> always
<zid`> poor lad has a polish accent, ofc he gets bullied
<Cindy> if gen alpha people play half life 2, they'll be questioning why the g-man toilet is not in a toilet
<sham1> They won't
<sham1> They'll whinge that it's too old
<nikolapdp> it's interesting that you find it sounds polish
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<Cindy> sham1: half life 2 has been gen-alphaificated into skibidi toilet, why would they whine about it being too old
<zid`> nikolapdp: Well what else is it gunna sound like that I am familiar with?
<zid`> afrikaans? latin?
<sham1> Czech?
<zid`> who on earth is familiar with czech
<zid`> It's just "generic eastern european because it doesn't quite sound russian enough" to my ears
<nikolapdp> heh so that's what polish means
<zid`> slavic, I think is the word I am looking for
<nikolapdp> that would be correct, yes
<zid`> I mean that that's a better explanation
<nikolapdp> yeah
<zid`> I don't have enough discernment to pick apart the different slavic microdialects
<nikolapdp> i mean serbian and polish aren't microdialects
<nikolapdp> very different languages
<zid`> nanodialects
<nikolapdp> picodialects
<gog> tell me about your favorite niche programming microlanguage
<sham1> Scheme
<gog> i like zig
<zid`> C++
<nikolapdp> scheme is good
<gog> c++ is not a microlanguage
<zid`> It's got a microlanguage worth of applications
<gog> yess
<zid`> I've written more useful software in befunge
<nikolapdp> lol
<GeDaMo> Forth!
<heat_> video games are written in c++
<heat_> if you dont like c++, you dont like video games
<nikolapdp> or c#
<heat_> who tf writes a game in c#
<zid`> no, video games are written in C#
<heat_> that's such a unity moment
<zid`> All of them
<nikolapdp> heat_ yes exactly
<heat_> i'm a source engine fan
<heat_> none of that unity c# mobile shit
<nikolapdp> tell that to everyone who uses that c# mobile shit
<heat_> the source engine is a real engine
<heat_> want a visual map editor? HAMMER.
<heat_> tell me you don't like using hammer
<heat_> struggling for assets? rip off half-life 2 and css
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<sham1> C
<sham1> None of this C++ fluff
<nikolapdp> yes sham1
<nikolapdp> c for the win
<heat_> tell me one good video game written in C
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<heat_> anything made by id software doesn't really count
<nikolapdp> doom
<nikolapdp> dang it
<zid`> tetris the grandmaster 3
<sham1> heat_: half-life 1
<zid`> guilty gear xrd
<nikolapdp> nice
<heat_> hl1 is much worse than hl2
<zid`> and tgm3 is the best game ever
<heat_> the c++ really amplified the game
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<heat_> what if rust was written in rust
<nikolapdp> isn't it
<sham1> They're certainly trying to
<heat_> unfortunately rust the video game predates rust
<nikolapdp> ah that's the rust we're talking about
<zid`> I am running out of water in my factorio pls send help
<sham1> Have you tried adding more conveyor belts
<zid`> for water?
<nikolapdp> obviously
<zid`> oh okay
<sham1> I mean, how else would you transport water? Pipes? Booooring!
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<Ermine> what does it mean if all registers in arm processor became 0xdeadbeef
<zid`> you hit your bug() handler which does that
<zid`> and forgot that you wrote it
<gog> better salt those registers and cook them up for dinner
<zid`> You need a surprising amount of water to make this many red boys
<gog> what do you need water for? oil cracking?
<sham1> Oh fun, didn't need to open my text editor once today at work
<nikolapdp> how so
<zid`> for crude, for light -> pet, for heavy -> light, and for sulphur and for sulphuric acid
<zid`> idk where to make blue chips
<zid`> gog, where should I make blue
<nikolapdp> in your factory
<gog> you don't need sulphuric to make he red bois
<gog> but yes for the blue bois
<Ermine> bug handler does what
<nikolapdp> 0xdeadbeef
<Ermine> but what if I don't have such a handler
<zid`> magic.
<nikolapdp> indeed
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<zid`> mmm that was nice, chimken noggits, veggeble sprung rolls, basmati rice, thai sweet chilli sauce
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<nikolapdp> chimken
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<zid`> This is your 7 hour warning for honzuki prepub
<zid`> also your 7 hour warning nikolapdp, to have read some more honzuki, else I murder you
<nortti> what if he watched the anime instead?
<zid`> eww, at least read the manga
<zid`> (the anime is kinda cheap and not very good)
<nortti> ah, a shame
<zid`> advert for the LNs at best :P
<nortti> do you read the LN chapters in japanese, or do ppl translate them?
<bslsk05> ​j-novel.club: Ascendance of a Bookworm (Light Novel) | J-Novel Club
<zid`> tis officially licenced, it's the biggest novel series in japan afterall
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<nikolapdp> do you have the manga zid`
<zid`> I do
<zid`> as in, I have the files
<nikolapdp> yes that's what i meantg
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<heat_> Ermine, have you considered that you might have the ghost of 0xdeadbeef past in your chip
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<Ermine> I wiped it several times
<zid`> with alcohol wipes?
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<Ermine> yes
<nikolapdp> no
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<heat_> my local arch mirror is down :(
<nikolapdp> oh why
<heat_> i don't know, i sent them an email just now
<nikolapdp> wonder how much storage you need to mirror arch repos
<heat_> anyway it helped me figure out that the second domain in my mirror list was borked
<nikolapdp> lol
<heat_> 300KB/s download is great shit
<nikolapdp> oh yeah definitely
<heat_> per the arch wiki
<heat_> >A full mirror is over 50 GiB in size
<nikolapdp> that's not crazy
<nikolapdp> probably need good upload speed though
<heat_> ok no, better measurements down the page
<heat_> as of 2023-05-23: 80GiB for packages
<heat_> 200MiB for the repos
<heat_> then you have a bunch of optional stuff that'll add up to 200GiB
<nikolapdp> like debug symblos
<Ermine> I had to replace broken repos with non-broken once in a while
<heat_> yeah, and sources
<Ermine> where 'once in a while' was often enough to annoy me
<nikolapdp> heh i get my packages straight from the artix build server
<heat_> the 10 artix linux users are in shambles
<nikolapdp> does that count in the maintainters too
<heat_> Ermine, this mirror is my uni's and it has been pretty reliable
<heat_> so now i temporarily switched to another uni's mirror
<heat_> at the end of the day the speed is really similar
<heat_> once i did a pacman -Syu using the uni's internet connection and it was blisteringly fast
<heat_> because, you know, same AS
<nikolapdp> it's nice when you can saturate the connection
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<zid> nikolapdp: Nuclear reactors take too long to warm up. I'm going to disable the cooling pumps, fully extract the control rods, etc. This cannot go wrong as my reactors are safe.
<zid> I even have a shutdown button if it starts to go wrong.
<sham1> Were you in Ukraine at the spring of 1986 by any chance
<nikolar> zid: that sounds like a very smart decision
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<nortti> doesn't extracting the control rods pretty much stop the reaction immediately?
<gog> other way around
<gog> the control rods are mediators, they absorb neutrons
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<zid> Which was what made cherb go boom, the rods had graphite tips, rather than being boron all the way along. So when they scrammed and the rods started to move back into the core, they displaced a bunch of cooling water.
<zid> before the boron got any action and started absorbing neutrons, it momentarily made it *worse*
<nikolapdp> and then kaboom
<gog> a-zed-five
<zid> a3-5
<zid> russian is a stupid language
<zid> they think 3 is read 'zed'
<zid> and their N is backwards, smh
<nikolar> 3 and з aren't the same
<nikolar> duh
<gog> cyka
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<zid> cyka makes the pdp crash
<zid> nice
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<nikolapdp> zid pdp doesn't cras
<nikolapdp> crash
<nikolapdp> but it does close the stdin if you start typing in non ascii lol
<gog> oops
<nikolapdp> yup oops
<nikolar> сука
<gog> some dude called me 'suka' once
<nikolapdp> did you know the dude
<gog> nope
<nikolapdp> random
<gog> not really :D
<nikolapdp> lol
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<zid> They meant sucka but spelled it badly
<zid> ?ex=65d37510&is=65c10010&hm=0a8d9a83c2b95888c5f002f00e2e1300ab7eb942abf7b4d676905370379ed4d8
<zid> oops
<nikolapdp> what poor chiuce are you refering to zid
<zid> nikolapdp: not beating you to death
<gog> lol
<nikolapdp> lol love you too zid
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<zid> nikolapdp: you know what you did.
<nikolapdp> what did i do
<gog> oh is that a da share z0ne
<gog> one of my fav meme pages
<zid> you were supposed to read up to part 2
<zid> you've had WEEKS
<nikolapdp> i definitely didn't have WEEKS
<gog> ohhh ramen 1/2
<gog> i get it
<gog> because the anime
<gog> ranma 1/2
<gog> i ahve never seen it
<zid> I think the original.. sms or whatever, is just.. supposed to not be connected
<zid> but it's funny
<zid> my mother does this
<zid> but not usually in a funny way
<zid> "Is it too cold, do you want me to turn the heating on?" "Yea, the dog died."
<gog> i'm old ok
<zid> she means, "yes I do, also the next door neighbour's dog has died, if you are interested."
<heat> i'm an aspiring senior citizen
<zid> I'm the oldest I've ever been
<zid> Correction: I am *now* the oldest I have ever been. We apologize for the previous comment, which was infact, poorly researched and ultimately false.
<zid> Fuck, you're not going to believe this, guys :(
<nortti> damn, looks like the edit of the lotr movies where every time sam takes a step away from hobbiton it plays the "if I take one more step, it'll be the farthest I've ever been from home" scene has been copyright claimed
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<zid> reddit things: "Guys, what's the most minimal linux distribution?" some guy replies "Debian"
<heat> debian sucks so much you'll want to use linux minimally
<nikolapdp> lol
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<zid> 2 hour warning nikolapdp
<zid> hope you had a pleasant time on earth
<nikolapdp> what's happening in 2 hours
<zid> Your memory is terrible, the brutal murder
<nikolapdp> oh why
<zid> Not making it to part 2 by the deadline
<zid> I even gave you a 7 hour warning just in case you had forgotten
<nikolapdp> what deadline
<zid> I'm not going to feel guilty.
<nikolapdp> sounds like someone who feels guilt
<zid> I was about to, then you spoke
<nikolapdp> you sure
<zid> very
<zid> Killed it dead
<nikolapdp> killed what dead
<zid> My capacity for empathy with you.
<nikolapdp> did you even have empathy
<zid> Just because it's small doesn't mean it's not there
<nikolapdp> so it is there
<zid> Not for you.
<nikolapdp> sounded like it is
<zid> like what is what?
<nikolapdp> sounded like the empathy is there
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<gog> hi
<nikolapdp> hello gog
<sham1> hi
<nikolapdp> hello sham1
<Mondenkind> hi
<gog> are y'all writing osdev
<gog> i am
<kazinsal> I'm in an all day training class for AWS stuff
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<nikolapdp> hello Mondekind
<Mondenkind> gog I have to do work ;-;
<nikolapdp> gog i am not unfortunately
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<gog> ;-;
<nikolapdp> kazinsal: my condolences
<gog> i could use a class on aws stuff
<gog> i have no idea what to do with it
<Mondenkind> when I was young and impressionable the cofounder of sourceforge told me I should learn aws so I could get a job
<Mondenkind> so I dutifully played with it a bit
<Mondenkind> made a toy 'serverless app' cus that was all the rage
<Mondenkind> now on my second job, have never used aws
<nikolapdp> lol
<Mondenkind> should have known better than to trust someone who would make sourceforge
<kazinsal> my new job is getting into the whole VMware in EC2 thing
<nikolapdp> indeed
<nikolapdp> kazinsal vmware, really?
<kazinsal> yeah, for hybrid cloud. both on prem VMware and cloud VMware in the same pane of glass
<nikolapdp> interesting
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<gorgonical> Writing papers is actually the most agonizing part of research
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<sham1> paperen
<sham1> Writen
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<heat> gorgonical, now imagine you had to write them in roff
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<gog> roff roff
<sham1> roff row
<zid> groff
<sham1> I just generated a new password for uni. Ugh
<sham1> I hate the password policy
<nortti> how often do you have to rotate yours?
<sham1> 6 months
<nortti> mine had 3 months when I started but later changed to 6 too
<sham1> Like sure, it's not like using diceware is difficult, but it's annoying
<sortie> gog: mandoc
<sham1> I don't think OpenBSD stuff is appreciated here
<sham1> Oh, err, NetBSD excuse me
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<mjg> Mondenkind: ec2 is pretty webdev
<mjg> Mondenkind: and widespread
<heat> WEBDEV CRAPPER PHP
<mjg> Mondenkind: dude had a point, even tho i managed to avoid ec2 for the most part myself
<heat> lambda is more webdev
<heat> lambda is webdever
<heat> webdeverest i dare say
<mjg> the most webdeveresterest
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<heat> mjg how's the freebsd
<Mondenkind> mjg: my vps is on ec2
<heat> is it fast yet
<Mondenkind> am i webdev now ;-;
<heat> who isn't webdev?
<Mondenkind> linux torvald is webdev because linux is mostly used for webshit
<heat> you know who isn't a webdev
<heat> theodore de raadt
<heat> because openbsd is not used for webshit
<mjg> heat: it just got slower
<heat> same for freebsd, but freebsd is not used at all
<Mondenkind> what about bchs
<heat> so the freebsd people cannot even be considered devs
<bslsk05> ​learnbchs.org: BCHS: BSD, C, httpd, SQLite
<heat> omg you made me remember bchs
<mjg> heat: some dude moved a bunch of stuff into "libsys"
<gorgonical> sham1: I can't even use diceware for my passwords because my uni still requires numbers and symbols and all that jazz
<mjg> heat: and now all binaries link to it apart from libc
<mjg> heat: and given how atrocious rtld is, binary startup is now even slower
<mjg> heat: and it was already about TWICE that of linux
<Mondenkind> heat: i will always remind you of bchs😘
<mjg> tl;dr lol
<heat> crapper
<mjg> turbo crapper
<heat> what if freebsd used glibc
<heat> top 10 alt history scenarios
<nortti> debian gnu/kfreebsd
<mjg> nortti: nope
<mjg> nortti: that sucker had bsd libc
<nortti> wait what
<heat> no it did not
<mjg> what
<mjg> where is that shit
<heat> gnu/kfreebsd had glibc
<nikolapdp> whatever happend with debian gnu/kfreebsd
<mjg> wtf
<heat> >Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is a port that consists of GNU userland using the GNU C library on top of FreeBSD's kernel, coupled with the regular Debian package set.
<mjg> lemme verify that real KUIK
<bslsk05> ​www.debian.org: Debian -- Debian GNU/kFreeBSD
<heat> VERIFIED FACT
<mjg> indeed that's what they claim, i must be misremembering then
<mjg> pretty solid then :A
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: What Order Should I Make Things In? - OSDev Wiki
<heat> it should be a reviveable project
<mjg> > he development of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD has officially terminated as of July 2023 due to the lack of interest and volunteers.
<nortti> < nikolapdp> whatever happend with debian gnu/kfreebsd ← not enough ppl working on it so it fell to debian ports, where there was not even enough ppl to keep it working there (so less interest than, say, debian gnu/hurd), so fully dead
<mjg> wait
<mjg> now that you mention fucking HURD
<mjg> it is hilarious
<heat> where's the "linux torwald" archetype
<heat> for people that write shit linux
<nikolapdp> hurd is actually quite alive
<nikolapdp> believe it or not
<mjg> hurd?
<nikolapdp> yeah
<heat> hurd is as alive as my dead greadparents
<mjg> i was taking a look at its dev from time to time, there was liek 2-3 people committing lol changes
<mjg> no idea about the debian port
<nikolapdp> but there are people
<nortti> I'd presume those same people work on it
<mjg> the funniest part about it is the hurdng paper
<geist> same with minix3. it seems fairly dead
<gog> hi
<heat> hurd 2 electric boogaloo
<mjg> pointing out hurd in fact sucksorz
<nikolapdp> what's that hurdng thing
<gog> haiku
<nikolapdp> haiku gog
<mjg> not something which exists, but something which they wanted
<gog> haiku pog
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<gog> my favorite indie os
<nortti> ah there goes the resident minix 3 dev
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<mjg> i should contribute something to minix for lulz
<netbsduser> hurd fell into the trap of constantly running off on unnecessary proposals for major rearchitecting (like adopting L4 or inventing some new microkernel) rather than driving it home
<nortti> admitedly mach is a pretty bad base from what I understand for proper multiserver architectures
<heat> the best part of freebsd is everything they stole from mach
<mjg> fu mon
<mjg> even if hurd did not suck
<mjg> who on earth would use it
<heat> GNU people
<mjg> initially when linux was taking off the bsds were in better shape
<mjg> and they got screwed anyway
<mjg> i fail to see why the industry at large would give a flying fuck about hurd even if it was operatinal
<mjg> for anything but lulz purposes
<kazinsal> if the USL v. BSDi lawsuit never happened Linux would still just be the plucky upstart
<netbsduser> mach was one of the most influential kernels in unix history, the sunos vmm was inspired by it and the 4.4bsd vmm is the mach vmm
<sham1> Also, yknow, MacOS
<geist> uh oh you said it now netbsduser
<kazinsal> pre-emptive SOLARIS SOLARIS SOLARIS SOLARIS
<heat> SUNOS
<nikolapdp> SOLARIS
<mjg> sunos vm was inspired by mach?
<sham1> GNU
* mjg presses F to doubt
<netbsduser> whether and to what extent linux borrowed from both i'm not sure (the "rmap" concept came from the pv_map, matt dillon told linux about it)
<heat> isn't sunos vm very different from mach?
<mjg> (or was it X?)
<geist> honestly i'm not so sure about that
<sham1> X
<sham1> F is for respects
<mjg> right, thanks
<mjg> X
<netbsduser> the original paper on sunos vm
<mjg> i think the most fundamental aspect of mach vm is vm objects
<mjg> which afaik are not present in sunos vm
<mjg> it's that stuff which chains on fork
<netbsduser> i think of that as quite fundamental, but more fundamental the thoroughgoing separation of the manipulation of hardware-interpreted address translation maps from the vm logic through a very abstract interface (pmap/hat)
<mjg> word search for mach on the paper does not claim they are borrowing squat from there
<mjg> i don't think separating machine-specific bits from general vm logic is particularly mach-y
<mjg> it's liek basic layering?
<netbsduser> and the object chains i don't think to be essential, uvm dumped them
<heat> uvm is also not mach inspired
<mjg> i said they vm object chains are quintesential mach
<netbsduser> no, it's directly derived
<heat> it's only mach inspired in that uvm was inspired by everything mach vm is NOT
<heat> the everything-is-a-vm-object crap and the endless COW chaining is mach vm in a nutshell
<netbsduser> as to the pmap/hat concept i know of no kernel predating mach with such a concept, nor of any kernels which weren't inspired by it to some extent, that have it
<geist> yah sunos is highly vnode centric
<geist> kinda an equivalent of a vm object, but its highly file centric
<heat> yeah i mean, thats unix for you
<mjg> heat: chaining is PESSIMAL
<CompanionCube> heat: the thing about kfreebsd reminded me of https://www.osdyson.ru/projects/dyson/wiki, which advertises as 'kopensolaris'
<bslsk05> ​www.osdyson.ru: About - Dyson - Dyson — Debian GNU/kOpenSolaris
<heat> you either map files, or you map anon memory
<heat> CompanionCube, oh lord
<mjg> wut
<nikolapdp> heh nice
<nikolapdp> ILLUMOS
<mjg> There is a LiveCD ISO image with a simple installer: https://dl.osdyson.ru/iso/2019-11-15/
<bslsk05> ​dl.osdyson.ru: Index of /iso/2019-11-15/
<mjg> pronounced dead at the scene
<heat> IMO basically there are a lot of optimizations one can make wrt the UNIX vm, such that large parts of the very pretty super abstracted mach vm make no sense
<netbsduser> anon is also memory mapping
<netbsduser> swapfile mapping
<CompanionCube> mjg: git repositories are also very dead
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<mjg> CompanionCube: interestingly chances are illumos had more FORKS than contributors
<mjg> liek for real
<heat> doing anon as swapfile mapping is one of those ideas that sounds very mach vm/sunos and indeed should pessimize the shit out of anon memory
<mjg> erm, more forks (now dead) than curretnly active contributors
<mjg> the latter being around 12 afair
<heat> like, corporate vendor UNIX is full of these giant, ambitious, big ass ideas of abstraction and pretty diagrams
<heat> that didn't pan off, and now you have linux
<mjg> :)
<heat> like they didn't see the fucking vnodes didn't fit with the UNIX design, so there was a filesystem that had to deal with block devices and char devices and making those work with vnodes
<mjg> i just realised if you add 'r' to your nick, it's an anagram of "hater"
<heat> no
<heat> that would be heatr
<heat> heater
<heat> mjg is an anagram of gjm
<heat> what does this mean? i don't know.
<mjg> that's some genz retort
<mjg> did you notice i did not even shit on solaris this time around
<mjg> but you did?
<mjg> :X
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<heat> i wasn't particularly shitting on solaris as much as i was shitting on all the vendor UNIXen
<heat> the janky linux beat them all, and that's hilarious
<sham1> Why do you shit on unixen
<sham1> shitten
<mjg> SHITE IDEA
<heat> because that's what they deserven
<heat> someone must counter the solaris internals books
<sham1> How about Windows Internals
<mjg> you just failed to grasp sun engineering ethos
<nikolapdp> what books
<mjg> are windows internal books self-aggrandazing?
<heat> i don't know enough about windows to have a say in it
<heat> but the windows people are not writing the windows internals books
<heat> so there's no self-fart to smell
<heat> the solaris internals books always read like The Great Sun Microsystems had this GRAND FUCKING IDEA THAT NO ONE ELSE EVER HAD
<mjg> you missed an important bit
<mjg> the current code SUCKED
<mjg> and then they had the idea
<Ermine> Russinovich works at MS
<heat> oh absolutely
<Ermine> Iirc at Azure department though
<heat> 1st edition thinks STREAMS networking is a genius idea
<nikolapdp> STREAMS
<heat> 2nd edition thinks STREAMS was awful and now had the great idea of rewriting the networking without STREAMS
<heat> the important bit is "current good, old bad, others bad"
<mjg> show on the doll where solaris devs touched you
<mjg> :X
<heat> i follow bryan cantrill on twitter
<zid> honzuki update: The baddie now has the thing he's not supposed to have that can end the world, and charlotte is very adorable and trying very hard
<mjg> or how RMS calls it now, X?
<heat> does he?
<mjg> he calls stuff like other people don't
<mjg> so...
<heat> i'd expect him to use GNU Social or wahtever the fuck they innevitably made up
<mjg> i did not say he uses it
<CompanionCube> gnu social is surely too modern for some who uses email and wget to view webpages?
<sham1> MASTODON MASTODON MASTODON MASTODON
<heat> he does video conferencing too
<kazinsal> didn't know there was a text mode h.323 client
<pie_> apparentlly all the important stuff happens in azure now or something <Ermine> Iirc at Azure department though
<sham1> Yeah, azure's big and important
<sham1> It's where the money is
<pie_> so did they eat the people that are good at things because they have the money or do the have the money because they ate the people good at things
<pie_> is there an xkcd on autocannibalism?
<pie_> text mode was objectively the best idea ever and coming up with video is what got us where we are today. biggest missteak ever
<pie_> Im addicted to porn instead of writing operating systems.
<mjg> arguably more productive use of time
<sham1> I'm sorry to say, but there is text-mode porn
<pie_> Im happy to say it doesnt get me off anymore.
<mjg> there is a player which can output ascii art
<nikolapdp> mpv
<sham1> And, you know, erotic writing
<pie_> Ok my bad, I was thinking of ascii art. The more literary stuff can be surprsingly interesting.
<sham1> Prose so purple that it just becomes hardcore porn
* pie_ channels his inner teenage girl and reads AO3
<pie_> (I dont actually)
<pie_> Im actually considering giving up on reading after I couldnt figure out simple math problem.
<pie_> It doesnt bode well for writing operating systems.
<nikolapdp> that's why you get the computer to do the math for you
<pie_> And *that* is how you go down the theorem proving rabbit hole and accidentally a category theory
<pie_> which brings me full circle
<pie_> because that is partly how I couldnt figure out simple math problem
<nikolapdp> dang
<pie_> <aliens meme>its all interconnected</aliens meme>
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<pie_> hey kid
<pie_> want some compilers?
<nikolapdp> always
<pie_> we cut everything with lambda these days
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<nikolapdp> what do you mean
<gog> hi
<nikolapdp> hello gog
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<geist> []() { i cut you; }
<Mondenkind> []<>(){} // gotta catch em all!
<geist> [auto&&]()
<geist> (i think, && still gives me a headache)
<heat> c++ lambdas are annoyingly verbose
<heat> the java and javascript ones are cuter
<heat> (a, b) -> a + b
<geist> TIL about structured binding. i had no idea. been in luddite C++ too long
<geist> ie `auto [x, y ] = func();`
<geist> where fun returns anything that has two elements in it
<nikolapdp> y`that's kind of neat
<Mondenkind> isn't java annoying because it ends up as like a class or something because they bolted it on after the fact
<Mondenkind> idk java
<nikolapdp> sometimes wish c had that
<geist> downside being that it only lets you do it as auto
<geist> there's no way to force a type
<nikolapdp> Mondekind: yes exactly
<geist> `auto [int x, int y]` is no bueno
<heat> geist, yeah, do you know about the internals?
<geist> but can use std::tie to bind it to particular types
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<heat> it can do structured binding natively to PoD-like data types, like a simple struct S {int a, b;}
<geist> heat: negative, but it seems to be efficient
<heat> for other types, it uses std::get<N>()
<geist> ah interesting
<heat> so it works for more complex types, like tuples and pairs and whatnot
<geist> right, yeah that's also a thing
<geist> `return std::make_tuple...` and shove that in a thing
<geist> but yeah downside is it's auto. and i have a mixed relationship with auto
<heat> but structured bindings have a weird gotcha that i don't quite recall
<heat> IIRC it doesn't move nor copy the thing
<geist> but std::tie lets you bind it to a thing with an extra line, so that's kinda convenient
<heat> auto is great if you have an IDE
<heat> nightmare if you use a simple text editor
<geist> yah the google style guide is somewhat down on it. mostly use it if you have to, but dont use it because you're lazy
<geist> i a lot of time use auto a lot when prototyping something, or getting it working
<geist> then make a pass over it when done to replace with hard types
<heat> i have a lot of auto abuse i'm not proud of
<heat> and fwiw the C++ hivemind is "use auto everywhere"
<heat> which is... an idea
<nikolapdp> well c2x is also getting auto
<nikolapdp> in the sense of type inference
<heat> when is C getting "auto foo(int param) -> int"
<heat> for extra cursed
<nikolapdp> i don't think that one is ever happening
<nortti> how does that differ from int foo(int param)?
<heat> it does not, in most cases
<nikolapdp> in most cases?
<nikolapdp> i thought it never differs
<nortti> weird to introduce it then, in a language that consistently puts types before
<nikolapdp> c++ is weird, yes
<geist> unless they're going to add name mangling C++ style, the ability for auto to show up in function signatures is probably greatly limited
<nortti> how does auto in type signatures work with separate compilation anyways?
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<heat> also nortti
<geist> i'm not sure it does. for return types i think the compiler has to figure it out based on return type
<heat> auto only works if you either 1) specify the type using the -> or 2) it's a template
<geist> yah
<geist> which is also why having autos in C is a bit meh, if there's no templates the it's necessity is greatly reduced
<geist> though i guess you can still write macros
<heat> since C++14 or 17 doing "auto add(auto a, auto b) { return a + b; }" is similar (if not the exact same as) to "template <typename T> T add(T a, T b) { return a + b; }"
<geist> at least in the local compilation unit
<nikolapdp> heat so auto -> stuff works in the same namespace as the function was declared?
<geist> the latter you can at least stamp out concrete versions of. though maybe you can with the auto version?
<heat> nikolapdp, because of the way C++ parsing works, when the compiler reads S A::foo() it cannot see S
<heat> because S is private in A's namespace
<heat> so you need to mention the type *after* A::foo
<heat> because then it knows it's "inside" A, so it can see S
<nikolapdp> huh so i was kind of on the right track
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<heat> LINUX KERNIE
<nikolapdp> LUNIX
<heat> i'm rewriting my ext2 truncate
<heat> my old logic felt... fucky
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<heat> something was wrong and it was hard to understand
<geist> propa
<heat> what
<geist> that's an old 90s american reference that no one will get
<geist> pepsi commercials, with MC Hammer
<geist> at the end of it he takes a sip and says 'propa!'
<heat> and what does that mean
<heat> propa as in a brit saying proper?
<kazinsal> japan got pepsiman. we got mc hammer