klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<heat_> gog
<gog> heat
<nikolapdp> pog
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<zid> gog: oil is awful can we make it not awful pls
<zid> it's mainly awful because pipes, to be fair
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<childlikempress> just put it in barrels 4head
<zid> Might genuinely be better
* childlikempress <------- clueless, never played factorio
<zid> barrel it, train, unbarrel onto belts
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<zid> The "Yes, I am talking to you" "No you're not" energy in that 'forgetting the history of unix' article's reddit comments in incredible
<childlikempress> i would simply not read the reddit comments
<zid> I wanted to see if anybody had a good take, they didn't, but I at least found it funny
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<zid> nortti: I've been rationing them and I'm still running low already, sadface
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<nikolar> :(
<gog> :(
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<nikolar> Hello gog
<nikolar> How's work
<gog> webdev
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<gog> there's this component which i must use that behaves in stupid and unintuitive ways that affect the UX i'm trying to deliver
<gog> i'm reading the fucking source code and while it's well-organized it has some questionable choices about how it responds to events
<gog> i just want it to do one thing without retriggering a callback
<nikolar> Eh if it's any consolation, I'm trying to figure out why one of our microservices fails with a runtime import error when running inside a container but it's perfectly fine outside of a container
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<gog> i hate that
<nikolar> Yes
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<sham1> DOCKER
<zid> gog, have you tried adding more solar panels
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<nikolapdp> sham1 unfortunately
<nikolapdp> zid is that you
<zid> hello!
<gog> we don't have sunlight
<zid> we're starting to get some :(
<nikolapdp> isn't that a good thing
<zid> My yellow dots are mad at me
<zid> what do
<zid> I told them to add some solar, now they are ANGRY
<nikolapdp> there are a lot of them
<nikolapdp> be careful
<gog> bots bots bots
<zid> It's costing me 5GW to recharge them all
<zid> I only have 5GW of production
<nikolapdp> P:P5P:
<nikolapdp> kek
<zid> what is P:P5P:
<zid> is that a secret PDP command
<nikolapdp> that's what you get when you type in non-ascii and you're lucky enough to not close stdin lol
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<zid> I liked using my mouse without gpm running or whatever the hell the mouse program was
<zid> ^M^M^M^M^B^B^B^B^B
<zid> "oh right"
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<nikolapdp> heh yeah kind of like that
<adder> Does implementing an allocator involve an array on the stack as large as physical memory?
<GeDaMo> Why on the stack?
<zid> No it does not
<adder> Well, malloc isn't available?
<adder> I mean: char memory[...];
<zid> That won't work, you don't know how much memory is installed
<zid> How's your hello world going?
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<adder> So what's the actual way of doing it?
<GeDaMo> Do you know about page tables?
<zid> The actual way is to use a data structure
<zid> have fun designing them, they're kind of hard the first time you do it, but get easier and easier
<adder> Yes, GeDaMo.
<adder> So what I'm asking is how to malloc in a kernel, that's all.
<GeDaMo> Ah, a kernel malloc?
<zid> The same way all mallocs work, a data structure
<adder> Linked list?
<zid> userspace malloc isn't implemented with.. more malloc
<zid> It gets an address range, and it carves it up, and tracks how it carved it up
<zid> You know your address range, it's the 'entire physical memory installed'
<gog> yo dawg i heard you like allocating memory
<GeDaMo> malloc-ception
<zid> I thought you were reading a book
<adder> Why do you need to be hostile.
<zid> gog: mining prod 26 get.. long road
<zid> I need more copper and plastic and stuff :(
<gog> wowsers
<gog> you're trying to get 70?
<zid> 170!
<gog> :o
<zid> I need to add grey science, and uranium train fuel and some utility stuff, and I can copy paste my entire base.. hopefully
<zid> just shove it somewhere and add some more mines near it
<gog> why do you need weapons science?
<FireFly> someday I should play factorio again
<FireFly> never "beat" it (i.e. creating a rocket stuffs)
<zid> Yes you never got past the tutorial
<FireFly> depends on what you mean by tutorial?
<zid> gog: My fishy las0rs don't have enough power to crush behe spitters
<zid> in one tick
<gog> oh i see
<zid> FireFly: tutorial is 1 rocket
<gog> i can't wait for the 2.0 and expansion
<zid> Then you start over and do it 'for realsies'
<gog> i want to into space
<zid> then you start over over because that one was also crap
<zid> then you decide to try a MEGABASE and fuck it up
<FireFly> well I always got distracted and eventually tired of things
<gog> and then you repeatedly start over because the map wasn't ideal
<zid> map shmap
<gog> basically, rush bots and let them do everything
<gog> bots and a mall
<zid> Yea I always mis-time my 'rush bots' still :(
<FireFly> anyway it's confusing when the game has, y'know, a tutorial as well :p
<zid> I end up really struggling to have enough green circuits to get there
<FireFly> but I get that you just meant it as a disparaging remark now
<zid> disparaging? no
<zid> I was just giving it its proper name
<zid> This is a 'a couple of thousand hours' game, first rocket is like, 10 of those, it's pretty comfortably the "learning the basics" stage
<FireFly> I thought those single-player scenarios were the tutorial :P
<zid> nah those are SCENARIOS
<zid> I might be good enough to beat one of them soon
<FireFly> ohh ok so the scenarios teach you the game and the tutorial is you playing the game
<zid> I think at the 5000 hour mark I might have figured out how to route belts enough to do belt madness
<GeDaMo> I tried the demo but got analysis paralysis over where to place things :|
<FireFly> https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial I thought this was the tutorial
<bslsk05> ​wiki.factorio.com: Tutorial - Factorio Wiki
<zid> anywhere and everywhere, the FACTORY MUST GROW
<FireFly> but you're saying it isn't :p
<zid> Nope, it's definitely mis-named, that's the primer
<FireFly> hence the confusion
<zid> You can tell when you've finished the tutorial when the hints stop popping up ingame
<FireFly> well, I'll see if I get back into it Someday I guess
<zid> GeDaMo: If you wanna play it vicariously instead, watch doshdoshington's videos
<zid> they're edited down and he's delightfully miserable sounding at the injustice of having to do all the playing while you get to do all the watching
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<GeDaMo> Is that your pseudonym? :P
<zid> (he also has a review of every zachtronics game, and a review of La Mulana, oddly)
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<nikolar> great channel
<nikolar> watched his la mulana video yesterday
<zid> I love factorio, la mulana, and zachtronics games
<zid> and misanthropes
<zid> I want to marry him
<nikolapdp> you already asked me to marry you zid
<nikolapdp> zoo late now
<zid> not too late until the dowry is deposited
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<adder> What does a kernel need to do in order for third-party C/C++ programs to be able to allocate and free memory?
<gog> if you're reimplementing unix poorly, you need mmap()
<gog> which means a syscall entry point
<zid> provide a syscall
<gog> and a way to dispatch them
<zid> which can somehow give it access to new memory
<zid> mmap/brk/whatever
<zid> which it then feeds to its malloc (this will required porting the libc), which slices it up and hands it out
<zid> s/required/require
<adder> Porting libc sounds like a lot of work?
<nikolapdp> yes
<zid> It may be nearly 0 work, though
<zid> if you give it the exact interface of what you stole it from had: i.e linux's
<nikolapdp> kek yeah
<nikolapdp> but that just moves the work into the kernel
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<zid> It's work the kernel has to do regardless, eventually.. unless you're going in a completely different direction
<nikolapdp> true
<adder> So if I e.g. take a MINIX-compliant libc, and as long as I expose identical interface, all plays out?
<zid> It's like that "Any sufficiently complicated program has an implementation of an ad-hoc version of lisp in it"
<zid> You're going to end up with a mmap once you get complicated enough
<zid> even if it's called VirtualProtectEx or whatever instead
<nikolapdp> mmap is kind of universal so you'll end up implementing it no matter what else you do
<zid> there's an echo in here!
<nikolapdp> oh lol i missed that
<adder> I'm chipping away at the book at a quite rapid pace and supplementing by reading MINIX source to see how things are actually done.
<kof123> > C/C++ programs to be able to allocate and free memory? ansi c or posix? :D this is not to nitpick, it is to say, c89 has a malloc() .....how that actually works...well......something gives you a pointer
<adder> It's my understanding that there needs to be an OS underneath in order for malloc to work.
<mcrod> hi
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<kof123> yes, generally, but if you aren't using hardware memory protection.....at the asm/c/"bare metal" level.... anything can point anywhere, attempt to jump to anywhere....unless you have some other mechanism to enforce protection.........such is easier with a vm/bytecode, then the vm/interpreter could enforce such things
<nikolapdp> hello mcrod
<mcrod> hello nikolapdp
<kof123> +* attempt to read or write to anywhere
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<kof123> that is not to say you should do that, just "stack" "heap" ...at that level there is just a RAM free for all by default/at inception
<kof123> "what's in there? <points at cave>" "only what you bring with you"
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<adder> Alright. I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
<Cindy> malloc has a few layers, from a library i reverse engineered
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<Cindy> malloc() -> C library (maintains some kind of memory pool) -> OS -> hardware
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<nikolapdp> apparently netbsd supports zfs
<nikolapdp> definitely didn't expect that
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<heat> how
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<heat> all of the BSDs are exquisitely similar
<heat> i'd be surprised if there are even considerable differences between the interfaces the driver needs to implement
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<nikolapdp> heat: how what
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<heat> how would they not support it
<nikolapdp> i mean zfs is kind of a beast and netbsd isn't exactly a large project
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<heat> i could port zfs if i wanted to (i don't want to)
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<nikolapdp> heat out of curiousity, if someone else ported it, would you accept that
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<heat> as long as i don't have to use it or maintain it
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<bslsk05> ​i.imgur.com <no title>
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<mjg> heat: i know the talk
<mjg> heat: utter bullshit
<gog> hi
<mjg> heat: should you watch the video dude talks pulls of a little bit of eristics
<mjg> s/talks//
<zid> Is designed for 4 year olds, hence the picture of duplo?
<mjg> roughly this: people claim perf sukkz
<mjg> well someone had a webapp doing a select * query and filtering in the app
<mjg> that 's gonna suck everywhere
<mjg> therefore there is no perf problem on openbsd
<mjg> what really irks me is that openbsd folk try to position themselves as a no-bullshit crowd
<mjg> yet are incredibly dishonest
<gog> me too
<mjg> most people advocating for a project they are associated with are dishonest
<mjg> but most projects don't claim to be bullshit-free
<heat> most people lie with some purpose behind it
<heat> gog just lies for fun
<zid> I lie for comedy
<nikolapdp> those are all purposes for lying
<zid> "heat is sexy"
<heat> heat sex
<nikolapdp> well that's the most obvious lie here
<heat> Hi,
<heat> I use a system with KASAN sanitizer everyday.
<heat> Because I want to catch difficult-to-repeat bugs.
<heat> what tehf uck
<gog> i was one of the original founders of facebook
<mjg> i'm one of the current founders of facebook
<mjg> nice to meet you
<gog> can i hvae some money
<mjg> no
<gog> :<
<heat> gog workf or facebook
<heat> gogulas clegg
<zid> No I'm gogulus
<Ermine> My project is bullshit-free
<gog> me too
<sham1> SELECT * and filtering in app
<gog> yes
<sham1> I hate that this is something I have to deal with
<gog> this is actually something i had to fix in two places today
<gog> ancient code
<gog> written by webdevs
<sham1> God damn ancient code. Probably done in a time crunch because university stuff
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<mjg> you mean you OPTIMIZED
<gog> yes
<gog> i took a request that was 20-30 seconds and made it go in 5
<gog> i can't make it any faster
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<mjg> but i was told it is only big O which matters]
<mjg> and it did not change, did it
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<gog> nope
<gog> still has theoretically bad performance
<gog> but in practice it's faster for now
<gog> but heavily dependent on the index in the column
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<nikolapdp> gog that sounds very familiar
<nikolapdp> are we working the same job
<gog> yes
<gog> i see you across the room
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<nikolapdp> no way
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<heat> gog DEPESSIMIZED that lookup
<heat> she removed the CRAPPER
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<nikolar> Yes, top tier software eng6
<nikolar> Engineer
<adder> Hey, that rhymes.
<heat> eng6
<heat> is this a cyrillic moment
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<heat> no that's an actual 6
<adder> б
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<nikolar> That's me being unable to type
<Ermine> б
<Ermine> how does pdp show this?
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<nikolar> It doesn't
<nikolar> It just craps itself and if you're unlucky, closes the stdin
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<nikolar> Oh sorry, I misread
<nikolar> I'll show later
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<kof123> are we still doing the 6 thing? ♑ https://0x0.st/s/zcF05Ij5AJojuU4kfhKUkg/HnGc.jpg
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<nikolapdp> Ermine: this is how the pdp shows cyrillic b P1
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