<geist>
Ermine: indeed. i found it to be a well written book
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<zid>
The main downside is that you end up learning a lot about solaris internals, presumably
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<geist>
which i suspect no one would really care about if it werent mjg constantly throwing mud on it
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<zid>
Nah memeing on solaris has been fun since cantrill
<zid>
vs miller
<geist>
well, it was for a while there the Big Unix that probably everyone hated on
<geist>
simply because it represented corporate
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* geistvax
meeps
<klys>
ullo
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<mjg>
geist: dude it's heat which leads the charge on the front
<mjg>
geist: i do concede i started it though
<geist>
you two are naughty
<mjg>
heat is bad influence
<gog>
hi
<mjg>
ey gogs
* gog
gogs
* mjg
mjgs
<nikolapdp>
hello gog
<gog>
hi nikolapdp
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<nikolapdp>
how's webdev going gog
<gog>
fucking shit nikolapdp thanks
<nikolapdp>
so typical then?
<gog>
oh nevermind i got it to work
<gog>
yes
<nikolapdp>
lol
<mjg>
kernal.js
<mjg>
one of the most offensive things about webdev for me is the use of asserts for error checking
<gog>
i don't do that
<gog>
i do everything clean and correct
<gog>
(i'm lying)
<mjg>
ey gogs what's the javascript syntax for catching and ignoring all exceptions
<gog>
try {...} catch (e) {}
<mjg>
typed involuntarily was not it
<nikolapdp>
mjg kernal.js when?
<adder>
Anyone use Limine?
<nikolapdp>
adder i have, before it had it's own protocol
<zid>
nikolapdp: gm yet?
<nikolapdp>
nope
<nikolapdp>
you
<zid>
yes
<zid>
so you need to play more
<nikolapdp>
tgm1 doesn't count
<zid>
you don't even have tgm1 gm
<nikolapdp>
i don't
<zid>
It's easy and hard at the same time
<zid>
which is a total nonsense statement but erm
<zid>
It's like, really slow and easy, but the randomizer is bad and there's no hold or previews
<zid>
so it can just decide you need to be a god suddenly to survive
<GeDaMo>
What's tgm1?
<zid>
Tetris the Grandmaster
<GeDaMo>
Ah
<nikolapdp>
thus the gm
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<adder>
nikolapdp: I don't like how everything is abstracted away somehow.
<adder>
To be fair, if you want to use GRUB, you leapfrog over real mode, too.
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<gog>
everything being abstract is better
<gog>
at least within reason
<zid>
I don't think it matters one way or the other, as long as it tells me what my environment will be I am happy
<gog>
leapfrogging real mode is good though, real mode is pointless
<zid>
grub doesn't even bother to do that
<zid>
so it'sneither abstract nor non-abstract :p
<gog>
it's a dialectic of abstraction
<zid>
That means you can put it in capacitor.
<gog>
the hegelian dielectric
<nikolar>
adder if you ask me, skipping all of the legacy junk is a win
<zid>
anyone sane*
<nikolar>
Just get me into a sane environment and I'll take it from there
<adder>
I find it good to know what happens in real mode and how it works (segmentation), as it's hard to make sense of what exactly happens in long mode with all the segment registers.
<GeDaMo>
Apart from fs and gs the segment registers aren't used in long mode
<gog>
and if the cpu has setfsgsbase they're basically dummies
<gog>
segmentation is stupid and it's not important to understand it well, just how to configure it for flat addresses
<gog>
address space*
<nikolar>
Segmentation is completely irrelevant unless you plan on writing a 32 bit os
<nikolar>
But that would just be silly
<gog>
it's not even relevant then, you just set it flat
<gog>
you still need TSS and stuff
<nikolar>
Yeah
<nikolar>
You aren't learning anything by messing with segmentation preboot
<GeDaMo>
Hysterical raisins :P
<nikolar>
You're just setting some mappings which you'll never look at again
<gog>
paging is the more important thing to understand and it's easier to work with but maybe a little harder to grasp the first time you begin working with it
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<zid>
you two going to keep letting him help vampire forever or just for now?
<zid>
cus it ain't helping him nor you
<nikolar>
You're not wrong
<gog>
i'm not helping directly
<adder>
zid: It's wildly insulting, defamatory, and pathologically detached from all reality on several levels, as well as completely out of character for how you should know I am, to call me a "vampire".
<zid>
Oh he's schizoprenic, I see.
<zid>
That answersthat
<gog>
let's not invoke an actual pathology as an insult pls
<zid>
That isn't an insult.
<gog>
ok
<adder>
This is an #osdev channel and all I'm trying to do is learn. Anyone who judges that as a negative doesn't have their head screwed on right.
<zid>
adder: different methods of helping apply to different people
<zid>
Letting them spoonfeed you is detremental to *you*
<gog>
with respect, i'm better now at gauging when my help is hurting
<adder>
I don't think anyone is spoonfeeding me. All I've done in the past few days was asking for clarification what your code is doing, AFTER previously having exhausted all other sources.
<zid>
Yes, you have several misunderstandings making you think that
<zid>
And you're not interested in letting me address that, we've covered this
<adder>
I'm not sure what you're saying.
<zid>
I told you what, a month ago now, what your first step should be? Several people have told you to stop doing what you were doing and do that instead, you refused. Now, because you did what you did instead, you're completely at-sea.
<zid>
You're asking questions about things that are both not relevent to you, and you don't even understand the answer to.
<zid>
You're effectively trying to learn french by emailing the author to translate one word at a time for you, at this point.
<adder>
So, I read a book on kernels to get a high level overview of how things are done. Why is that bad exactly? Now I'm researching what needs done to actually boot the computer and transfer control to the kernel. What exactly am I supposed to do instead?
<zid>
Because your 'high level overview' is meaningless to the problem at hand.
<zid>
If you *had* been doing what you would need to do to learn this, you'd have *very* different questions than you do. You'd be posting code snippets saying "Why doesn't this work like I think it does? Page 17 of the manual says x but I thought I did that, I am getting behavior y though". not "is limone good?"
<zid>
"I've been reading about french history for a month, why is my french skill not improving? better email the author of this novel what 'mon' means instead"
<adder>
Well it looks easy to you because you have been programming computers for, what, 20 years? It wasn't as easy to me. I did not have the slightest clue about what I'm supposed to do, so I don't see how I could have just started writing out the code.
<zid>
It's absolutely nothing to do with ease.
<zid>
It's *impossible* to learn french by emailing the author to translate one word at a time to you.
<zid>
You need to *write some code*. Not do 'research'. You're not getting any closer in that 20 year experience gap by *not writing code*.
<zid>
Complaining that I can do it and you can't doesn't help you learn, it just self-justifies why you're not making progress.
<adder>
I am making progress just fine. Perhaps it's hard for you to see that, but a month ago I was completely clueless about even the high level idea, and now I pretty much know where to start, although some details still remain unclear. :)
<zid>
You know what'd also let you know where to start, a month ago? Me.
<zid>
Because I did
<adder>
But yeah, I am about to start writing the code any minute.
<adder>
Well, /that/ would have been spoonfeeding.
<zid>
You either don't understand what that term means, or you think you can gaslight me into believing you, sadly neither are true.
<zid>
spoonfeeding is when you ask lots of tiny little questions to try and understand something, rather than just sitting down and doing what you should be doing to learn it properly.
<zid>
I wonder which of those two definitions applies here?
<zid>
The one I gave, or the "zid is being mean to me by calling me out for being a dickhead"
<adder>
I've no stake in this discussion if you're going to straight out throw insults at me.
<Mutabah>
zid: Chill.
<zid>
Mutabah: Be a dickhead fine, call someone a dickhead bad. got it.
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<Mutabah>
adder: You too... if someone insults you, let it wash off
<adder>
Anyway. Sorry if I was a "dickhead" to anyone, it wasn't my intention. I genuinely came here in good faith.
<zid>
Yes, I'm not upset at you or think badly of you at all, you're just going counter to your *own* interests
<zid>
and getting understandably defensive when it's point out to you
<zid>
pointed*
<Mutabah>
I didn't see much in the last few hours that implies a help vampire, just a dicussion on fancy new bootloaders vs old ones
<zid>
Mutabah: it has been a *month* not an hour.
<zid>
And there's not going to be an end to it unless either pople stop contributing, or he is told what he is doing and why it won't help him.
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<gog>
ok, so since i'm a party to the question you asked that started this discussion, can you tell me what the threshold is that i crossed for enabling?
<gog>
so that in future i can better gauge
<zid>
well.. the month mark?
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<zid>
I just don't think you were paying attention to how systematic this has been
<zid>
just being generally helpful
<gog>
you're right, i haven't been
<zid>
which isn't a bad thing, it's just no good for him
<gog>
ok
<adder>
I agree, it's not good, as in, there are better strategies with larger payoffs. But also there are nicer and more polite ways of pointing that out. ;)
<adder>
That said, I need a cat.
<gog>
meow
* adder
gives gog a burger
<gog>
i skipped lunch two days in a row
<gog>
i should go get a food
<zid>
I keep eating vegetable spring rolls and rice because I am too lazy to think about food
<zid>
I'm a terrible eater
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<zid>
nikolapdp: 2:38
<nikolapdp>
almost there
<zid>
or my skill is identical I just got luckier :p
<nikolapdp>
yeah that could also be the case lol
<zid>
I've thought a long time about the pedagogy of tetris
<zid>
I tend to get into a rut of practice makes permanent
<zid>
rather than getting better
<nikolapdp>
what do you mean exactly
<zid>
There's an addage 'practice makes perfect'
<zid>
But that's not actually what practice does, it makes *permanent*. That is to say, repeating something will build the muscle memory for it, so that you are 'better'at doing it.
<zid>
If you practice throwing a javelin wrong, you'll be very good at throwing a javelin wrong.
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<nikolapdp>
that is true
<zid>
And it may infact then be harder to learn to do it correctly, because you lapse into doing it the 'old' incorrect way
<zid>
So practice needs to be directed and focus to have the best effect
<zid>
So to swing back around: I tend to find I don't get much *better* at tetris, I just get a bit faster at being bad at tetris
<nikolapdp>
lol that's one way of putting it
<zid>
more tgm1 would do me much better
<zid>
It's a slower more thoughtful game
<nikolapdp>
does it play any differently
<nikolapdp>
other than being slower
<zid>
no previews, no hold
<zid>
and has no 'death' mode (shirase is tgm3's)
<zid>
tgm2 is tgm1 but harder, and has modes, death, doubles, etc
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<adder>
I'm not sure what's happening here. I look up -m32 in man as, and it's there. And when I use it in my Makefile, it says unrecognized option?
<GeDaMo>
Are you sure it's an option for your target processor?
<adder>
I'm not sure, but --32 seems to move me past that error.
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<GeDaMo>
Seems like -m32 is an option for TILE-Gx processors
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<gog>
-m32 used to be a regular option in gcc, i have used it in the past but fwiw i've been using clang since some time ago
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<gog>
h/t heat
<gog>
clang clang clang clang
<Matt|home>
yeah an hour and a half of interrupted sleep is fine, my cognitive abilities haven't suffered at all from it~
<gog>
ooof
<zid>
m32 is for gcc
<GeDaMo>
-m32 is still a gcc option
<zid>
'gnu as' is not gcc
<zid>
ergo it is not an option for gnu as :P
<gog>
ohhh
<GeDaMo>
Well, it is but not for x86
<adder>
Yeah, it's -m32 in gcc but not in as.
<gog>
gas
<adder>
I now have the linker complaining: ld: i386:x86-64 architecture of input file `boot/main.o' is incompatible with i386 output
<zid>
as has per-arch options, annoyingly, y ea
<zid>
what do you think it means, adder?
<adder>
Well main was compiler for 64 bit processors and linker wants 32?
<adder>
s/compiler/compiled/
<zid>
you told (defaulted?) the linker to i386
<zid>
boot/main.o is x86-64
<zid>
I assume told, given --32
<GeDaMo>
zid: by the way, what do you mean 'obscure bands'? Cabaret Voltaire isn't obscure! :P
<bslsk05>
github.com: sophia/kjarna_runtime/dynamic_x86_64.c at kjarna · adachristine/sophia · GitHub
<zid>
hang on, I'm going blind
<zid>
two relocation types, and a hardcoded table of strings? seems legit
<gog>
yes
<gog>
i've only implemented what is generated so far
<zid>
I love it when code needs to exist
<zid>
but isn't ready to exist in a form that is actually 'good'
<zid>
so you end up with weird hardcodes
<gog>
yes
<zid>
My zid.ini for tgm3 is like that
<zid>
every single option is an int, except for one
<zid>
so I just have if(strcmp(key, "that") == 0){ strdup(); }
<zid>
and everything else is strtol'd
<zid>
I hate it with a passion but it'd be dumb to do much else
<zid>
tagging each key name with a type or whatever
<adder>
So how is arch of main.o x86_64 if I have this in my Makefile: $(CC) -c $(CFLAGS) $^ -m32 -o $@
<zid>
'file'
<zid>
Is the tool you want to run on main.o
<sham1>
hi
<adder>
Says ELF64
<nikolapdp>
hello sham1
<sham1>
I just looked at Slack because I was curious if something interesting had gone on while I had my day off. Apparently the load balancer broke for a bit
<geist>
that being said i've only seen it on that one cpu, 3950x, but it was with multiple mobos
<gog>
intel bad amd good
<zid>
and psus are less and less well regulated at very low idle
<gog>
let's argue about that for hours
<zid>
so you can have brownouts and other problems if you enable the c-states/p-states/whatever that allow the messageto go to the psu to go idle
<geist>
ah, i see
<zid>
if your psu is 400W max, you never see low enough draw for it to matter
<heat>
intel vs amd, amd vs intel
<heat>
microsoft vs apple
<geist>
not sure if that was precisely the same thing, but the gist is you disable one of the lower power states, at the downside that the idle power is higher
<zid>
but if it's 2000W or whatever, it's trying to run at 0.1% load and can shit
<heat>
xbox vs playstation
<heat>
amd vs nvidia
<geist>
i dont think i have a particularly good PSU there, mid range
<gog>
amd vs. the world
<zid>
That was my 2nd most likely theory though, my first is that amd's memory architecture is fucking wild
<geist>
re: bios issue, i saw the same problem on two different motherboards
<heat>
gog: lisa su vs jensen
<zid>
and it integrates too much of 'how ddr works' into 'how the cache works' and higher dram speeds can make your *cache* less stable
<heat>
gog, which one do you stan and why
<geist>
i remember buying a whole new mobo for it and it still showed up
<zid>
geist: amd bioses are all 'aegis' build-a-bear
<gog>
heat: whomst?
<geist>
is true
<zid>
you just reskin the blob amd gives you
<heat>
agesa btw
<zid>
that's it
<zid>
agesa
<heat>
that's how intel bioses work too
<zid>
yea but intel bioses seem way more mature and have way more stuff exposed
<gog>
i thought it was all repackagings of tianocore
<zid>
amd is very 'magic'
<zid>
still
<zid>
AMD bios issues are always systemic in a way that doesn't seem to happen to intel, at least
<heat>
no one writes memory training code anymore, they don't even document that shit to IBVs anymore
<heat>
gog, uhh, kinda
<zid>
Anyway, I bumped my soc voltage up
<gog>
or is EFI just atop another BIOS that does the low-level jiggery-pokery at the CPU init time
<zid>
from 0.99V to 1.05V
<zid>
we'll see if that helps, I suspect it will
<geist>
that being said, i have a lot of additional ryzens around the house and they're otherwise rock solid
<geist>
was just this one, i think a bug on that particular zen2
<heat>
AFAIK the chain is more or less "intel provides board code -> IBVs take it and integrate it into their crap, plus repackage-even-more-crappified tianocore -> OEM gets the IBV code and further crappifies it"
<geist>
i vaguely remember that being the case when i looked it up
<gog>
i see i see
<zid>
geist: amd chips get past QA with rough edges a lot more from what I've seen
<zid>
lot of people having to give random voltages a bump
<heat>
gog, for instance AMI has a completely separate even more cursed build system
<heat>
for some reason
<zid>
intel's just "have you tried LESS vcore so it runs colder?", amd's like "have you tried adding a 20th of a volt to stop it crashing once a week?"
<zid>
on PMM_V18_10_SOC_EXTRA
<heat>
anyway you don't have EFI proper at "cpu init", you're still in PEI mode
<heat>
so the EFI PI spec applies there
<gog>
yes
<heat>
actual EFI is very late in boot
<zid>
efi is syscalls
<zid>
for applications
<heat>
yeah pretty much
<zid>
int 10h is the best comparison
<heat>
it's basically the ABI between EFI apps/drivers and "magic", even u-boot can implement it
<zid>
board vendor bundles their impl. for your onboard video with their actual bootstrap + system gunk + int 16h etc which they got from pheonix :P
<heat>
video drivers are probably also EFI drivers anyway
<heat>
you just fetch them from the PCI oprom space, that's the only difference
<zid>
I wonder how you actually wire up an onboard vga
<zid>
just make a non-external pci-slot for it, as the mobo designer?
<heat>
i believe the intel onboard stuff is just make-believe PCI
<zid>
oh god, integrated is yea
<zid>
I assume it emulates a pci-e device in silicon
<heat>
yeah
<zid>
then does a bunch of hacks
<GeDaMo>
Do the CPU sockets have pins for integrated GPUs?
<zid>
to get the hdmi out, sure
<zid>
I've had both cpus with integrated and no integrated video header, and a cpu without integrated on a mobo with the header
<heat>
the intel and AMD mobo designs aren't super different, yet intel memory training and configuration happens through PCIe devices and BARs, and AMD memory training and configuration (AFAIK!) happens in MSRs
<zid>
but never matching:D
<heat>
but the memory controller is obviously not over PCIe
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<adder>
What's memory training? My search engine only yields results for like cognitive memory.
<nortti>
"DDR link training" might be a more useful query
<bslsk05>
'How to read Polish or something' by HowtoPolish (00:10:53)
<heat>
no it doesn't
<heat>
it does it at boot if its the first boot or you changed the hw configuration
<zid>
who enables fastboot
<zid>
smh
<heat>
this is not even fast boot
<zid>
it's literally labelled fast boot in some bioses, sue me
<heat>
DDR5 link training takes like 5 minutes
<zid>
ah yes, but think of the huge benefits ddr5 gives
<zid>
like
<zid>
erm
<zid>
it's bigger than 4
<zid>
(god I hate ddr5)
<gog>
dubious
<heat>
usually fastboot means that you can skip configuring and setting up certain devices and filesystems because UEFI Just Knows where you want to boot to
<zid>
To be fair, some of those multi-terrabyte octochannel systems did take a minute or two to train on ddr3/4
<heat>
maybe the meaning changed
<zid>
uefi? who uses that
<gog>
me i do
<gog>
i love uefi
<heat>
android devices
<zid>
the fuck does android have to do with what pheonix bios labels stuff
<zid>
in the 90s
<heat>
what
<geist>
wat
<geist>
also it depends on the device, qualcomm moved off LK and onto uefi, but lots of vendors still use LK, or uboot or whatnot
<geist>
ie, ‘bespoke android boot method’
<heat>
ah ok, that's interesting
<heat>
also depressing that you have N boot methods, but oh well
<heat>
i had an asus x86 (intel) tablet back in ~2013, i'm fairly sure those ones also did use EFI
<geist>
yah x86 would certainly use uefi
<heat>
maybe, but 2013 was still a bit early for UEFI-only x86 firmware
<heat>
and intel is a funny company with many different competing technologies
<geist>
yeah though i remember having one of their mobile boards at the time. i think something like uh… what was it
<geist>
the embedded thing
<geist>
anyway it was uefi too
<geist>
it was early but they were pushing hard at it by then
<zid>
In case you thought I was making shit up, the general consensus is that fastboot means 'skip memory training', in 'people who use computers' circles
<zid>
it's probably different in tianocoreland or whatever
<zid>
it probably has its own jargon
<zid>
but the 'computers users' meaning is that
<gog>
i've never used a computer and i never will
<zid>
Good idea
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<gog>
i found this plastic toy shaped like a toilet on my balcony, is this the skibidi toilet
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<sham1>
GOG, NO!
<sham1>
We do not speak that accursed name here
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<gog>
:| sorry
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<nikolapdp>
gogronical
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<gog>
hi
<kof673>
> intel vs amd, amd vs intel <heat> microsoft vs apple <heat> xbox vs playstation <heat> amd vs nvidia
<nikolapdp>
hello gog
<gog>
gog vs magog
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<childlikempress>
magog implies the existence of yogog
* kof673
points at heraclitus "unity of opposites"
<gog>
a hegogian dialectic
<zid>
I bet gog is a polyrhythm enjoyer
<gog>
am i?
<zid>
Not denying it, see
<sham1>
What's wrong with polyrythmic
<zid>
We caught one!
* zid
calls the authorities
<zid>
Catch him alive this time pls guys
<gog>
is there any mainstream stuff that's polyrhythm
<gog>
so something being in 5/4 time is polyrhythmic?
<zid>
it's 4/4 + 5/4
<kof673>
hmm...i don't know enough about hegel, not sure anyone does, but 4 seasons just repeating/cycling is a simple example...and the other hemisphere being opposite....*** at the same exact time ***
<gog>
also i like damon albarn in general
<zid>
I wanna marry noodle
<gog>
noodle is a cartoon character who has been voiced by 4 people
<zid>
Are you disrespecting my dreams
<gog>
no, sorry
<gog>
you can dream
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<zid>
I'd marry haruka abe
<zid>
we're the same age
<gog>
you're my age?
<gog>
idk why but i thought you were older
<zid>
I'm the same age as germany
<gog>
what is that
<zid>
it's a part of central europe full of mountains
<zid>
which slopes downwards to the sea just below denmark
<gog>
oh
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<gog>
do you mean the bundesrepublik deutschland?
<zid>
which gives them, from my perspective, a confusing "highlands are in the south, lowlands are in the south" geography
<zid>
which is the opposite to the UK
<gog>
because that was established 1949
<zid>
germany was born in 89/90
<sham1>
Maybe means reunification
<gog>
yeh
<gog>
i guess
<zid>
9th nov 89, 2 weeks after I was born
<gog>
you're younger than me?
<zid>
so I am older than germany qed
<zid>
gog's hopes and dreams the one getting smashed now, loves older men
<gog>
the only man i love is 6 months older than me k
<gog>
i mean
<zid>
I only love nortti
<gog>
forget i said that
<zid>
nortti doesn't say they love me, but they send me salmiakki, gog says it but clearly doesn't mean it, forever alone.
<gog>
i can send you salmiakki too
<gog>
well salt lakkris
<gog>
same thing
<zid>
What kind of fish is a lakkris
<gog>
lakkris, liquorice
<zid>
likely story
<nikolapdp>
<zid>
It's some kind of compressed fermented fish paste
<zid>
or moss
<sham1>
It's salmiakki
<acidx>
salmiakki, aka spoiled yoghurt with notes of old cigarette butts and regret
<zid>
..yoghurt? O_o
<zid>
I think yours had gone off
* acidx
is in the part of the population that can't get near that stuff lol
<zid>
It's a plant root
<zid>
not white glop
<zid>
full of bacteria
<kof673>
> Secret of Mana "Desert Snowstorm" - OC ReMix ocremix.org it still survives lol
* acidx
is also making a joke, if "old cigarette butts and regret" wasn't clear