klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<heat_> gullible: gullible
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<mjg> heat__ what the fuck is your girlfriend implementing
<bslsk05> ​lwn.net: [PATCH 00/31] NT synchronization primitive driver [LWN.net]
<heat__> my what
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<heat> oh i looked at this before this is pretty cool what's the problem?
<mjg> i have no opinion per se, it does strike me as odd tho
<mjg> anyhow i just wanted to take a cheap jab
<mjg> mission accomplished
<mjg> heat: have you seen Peep Show?
<bslsk05> ​freebsdfoundation.org: A Sneak Peek: SIMD-Enhanced String Functions for AMD64 | FreeBSD Foundation
<mjg> 's done
<zid> he's my boyfriend
<zid> not mjg's
<zid> we play scrabble a lot
<mjg> what he said
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<heat> i like an easy to understand bar graph to represent incredibly complex results that vary a lot based on hardware (unspecified in this case)
<heat> it's a sun microsystems-esque practice
<heat> i'm proud of you, you're learning
<zid> They're amd64 only at least
<heat> for the next blog post it'll be "FreeBSD VFS Performance: OVER 9000; Linux VFS Performance: womp womp"
<zid> The problem is finding a freebsd user who has a cpu worth more than $40
<heat> woah calm down
<heat> you need to find a freebsd user first
<zid> good point
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<mjg> in case of sun it's all ez
<mjg> the cpu is SPARC
<mjg> ONE AND ONLY
<heat> do you think netbsd has VAX-optimized string ops?
<mjg> chances are decent they have asm ops for vax
<mjg> but chances are miniscule they are optimized
<heat> or hand-optimized linked list ops for the VAX
<mjg> ./arch/vax/string/memset.S
* mjg says lmao
<pogspawn> hi
<heat> howdy
<mjg> watap mofo^W
<mjg> * This optimises the usual case (count < 65536) at the expense
<mjg> * of some extra memory references and branches when count >= 65536.
<bslsk05> ​tenor.com: Dualipa Dualipagifs GIF – Dualipa Dualipagifs Dua – discover and share GIFs
<mjg> i read it as 'dupa' a bunch of times
<heat> dualipa dualipagifs GIF dualipa dualipagifs Dua duagifs duagif dualipa dualipagifs dup2() dup3() dup4()
<pogspawn> dua lipa
<heat> anyway RE that wine patch set, if the wins are as significant as they say they are, that's pretty great and i fully support it
<heat> at the cost of some linux kernel developer pride you can get a boatload of FPS
<mjg> ye it's probably worthwile
<mjg> so the steam games were getting shafted by this?
<heat> it's a bit surprising how the wine people have been doing unspeakable things just to not touch the kernel
<heat> probably?
<mjg> onyx variant when
<heat> "The gain in performance varies wildly depending on the application in question and the user's hardware. For some games NT synchronization is not a bottleneck and no change can be observed, but for others frame rate improvements of 50 to 150 percent are not atypical."
<mjg> where my good old quek
<heat> idk how many deps wine has
<mjg> did you know that quek games were developed with fully functinal linux clientz
<mjg> opengl
<heat> lmaogl
<mjg> i have no idea how it compared to direct3d
<mjg> only know it worked on linukkz and bsd
<mjg> but then again, i stopped playing games past that, so...
<heat> i'm not really a graphics person, but last i heard opengl drivers are just a lot worse optimized vs the d3d counterpart (cuz windows)
<heat> and gl is an extension hell
<heat> it probably entirely depends on what version you're running ofc, and then D3D12 is more like vulkan (and mantle before it)
<mjg> well *today* i expect oepngl fell off
<mjg> but in early 00s?
<mjg> it was likely competitive
<heat> s/are/were/g it still works
<mjg> quek was a household game with top notch graphics for the time
<mjg> and on opengl, so...
<heat> which quak
<mjg> any
<mjg> 1-3
<mjg> although 1 and 2 supported software rendering
<heat> sunos was a household operating system with top notch scalability for the time
<mjg> fuck off
<zid> on nvidia at least, gl/d3d is just a frontend
<zid> around their little core that handles all the io and packet creation
<heat> you're talking about 1999
<heat> that was 25 years ago
<zid> (the gl frontend is worse though in practice, despite their claims it should be just as good)
<heat> i bet they don't bother to do any of their crazy shader replacement for gl
<zid> They could, the problem is that nobody ships games in gl
<zid> so they haven't got a need to
<heat> VALVE CORPORATION
<zid> It's just a hash and a bytecode swap
<heat> i mean yeah ofc they could, i don't think opengl is natively just worse, it's just that everyone uses D3D so much that optimizing OpenGL is mostly a waste of time
<zid> sometimes, they have customers who deeply care, but they tend to be established things
<zid> not the hyper volatile world of games
<zid> i.e cad programs
<heat> oh no, nvidia's glDrawElements is slightly suboptimal? oh no, the 2 linux users that will actually need to use the gl paths will surely cry
<zid> Main issue I had with gl was just the scheduler
<zid> it implemented vsync as while(1);
<zid> and windows would then go "Oh this task is BIG IRON, guess it doesn't need scheduling in/out with better granularity than 10ms"
<zid> you had to put manual Sleep()s in to get it to not suck
<zid> else 100% cpu use and bad interactivity
<heat> hah
<zid> I actually ended up opening a d3d context
<zid> and calling the d3d function that can ask where the raster pos is
<zid> to implement my own vsync
<heat> it'd be hilarious if you could render to a texture, and pick up that texture in the D3D side and render that, with vsync
<zid> You could if you wanted
<heat> how? if you map it maybe?
<zid> You'd need to copy to user it back and forth
<zid> to get it between the contexts
<zid> glBufferData it and vice versa
<zid> like this is sort of vaguely the point of vulkan
<zid> that you can decide yourself where stuff lives and do your own copyinge tc
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<adder> Meet my new CPU. Intel(R) Pentium(R) 3556U @ 1.70GHz
<heat> hi Intel(R) Pentium(R) 3556U @ 1.70GHz
<zid> I hope you didn't pay any money for it
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<adder> Nope. My other laptop started rattling like mad and I needed to take my old one.
<childlikempress> zid: i'm sorry to break it to you, but you're just the side piece
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<zid> for whom?
<childlikempress> fuz
<heat> fuzzer
<zid> rip
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<adder> I have something to confess.
<adder> I join osdev discord.
<childlikempress> ok, but you have to wait until tomorrow to do it
<adder> s/join/joined/
<childlikempress> adder you were supposed to wait until tomorrow to confess that
<adder> It was urgent.
<childlikempress> you didn't listen
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<bslsk05> ​imgur.com <no title>
<heat> 11. dont give advice or you may get banned
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<heat> i was just looking at 4.4BSD's libc, turns out they compiled libgcc routines and the names stayed the same
<adder> heat: Is onyx your first kernel? Or did you make a few before making onyx work?
<heat> i played around with another operating system for ~1 year before onyx
<heat> but onyx also had a lot of steady evolution between "what am i doing" and "kernal hacker!!!!1!!111!"
<heat> it turns out doing is the best way to learn, and that's why we told you to write a hello world kernel
<adder> Jesus Christ. I will write a damn hello world, I just want to see what are my options. :)
<heat> what options?
<adder> Like how I could schedule processes and/or threads, how I could manage memory, and so on.
<adder> I'm already 200 pages or so into the book, so it won't be long before I get to work.
<heat> right. while yes, that's interesting and important, do keep in mind that you cant really design a kernel before having written one
<heat> you'll have to decide on the spot
<adder> Yep. After I'm done with the book, I'm headed to the hello world example you linked the other day and starting from there.
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<adder> Is the point of multi-level page tables to avoid storing an entry for each virtual page and only allocate an entry once it's needed?
<zid> more or less, it's just a trie
<zid> Like, nobody is going to allocate all these 'null' nodes
<zid> (a page table trie just happens to have 512 entries per branch, not 2, compared to a binary tree)
<zid> to fully allocate a set of page tables like that would need.. tens of gigabytes of ram I think?
<zid> an amd64 page table*
<adder> So previous-to-last node may not necessarily have 512 leaf nodes?
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<zid> every node
<zid> only the top node and one of the 'P' nodes Happens to have both its children allocated, in the image, for example
<zid> and ones that don't are all over thep lace
<zid> the place*
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<adder> So imagine that there are three levels, and that n is not 512, but e.g. 4, then root node will have 4 edges coming out of it, then each of these nodes will have 4. Is this what you're saying?
<zid> *may* have 4
<adder> Ah, ok. Then it checks out. :)
<adder> Thanks.
<zid> This is somewhere between a 3 and 1024 trie, hard to tell how filled in it is :P
<zid> looks like it might be a prefix tree, and is thus 52-way
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<bslsk05> ​www.theregister.com: Forgetting the history of Unix is coding us into a corner • The Register
<mjg> what's the example of "wasted effort"
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<Ermine> WASTED
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<zid> uh-oh, heat has moved on from being balkans irl
<zid> and is now full turkey irl
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<nikolar> Kek
* kazinsal calculates himself at 163 cm
<kazinsal> concerning
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<zid> nikolapdp: I'm getting rid of my sick serbian rdns, sorry
<nikolar> Dang
<zid> switzerland sent me a better off
<zid> offer
<nikolapdp> what's the offer
<zid> I get to have it be lain themed
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<nikolapdp> you're still zid.drunk-on.vucijarakija.rs for me
<zid> well yea, I haven't reconnected
<zid> I'm not going to change IP until I do
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<bslsk05> ​'The Return of -1/12 - Numberphile' by Numberphile (00:24:56)
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<vai> yoh
<gog> hi
<nikolapdp> hello
* kazinsal pets gog
* gog prr
<kazinsal> good girl
* nikolar gogs pet
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<gog> ee
<nikolapdp> oo
<kazinsal> nya~
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<gog> nya~
<kazinsal> mrrrr
<nikolapdp> weebs
<gog> i am not a weeb
<gog> i'm a catgirl
<kazinsal> neither am I
<gog> he's a catboy
<kazinsal> correct
<nikolapdp> get a room already
<kazinsal> I refuse!
<nikolapdp> dan
<nikolapdp> dang
<kazinsal> the good lady is married
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<kazinsal> I am here solely on the purpose of local ironic romantic shitpostery
<netbsduser`> why do they use a single wait_all_lock to acquire multiple objects instead of sorting the array of object pointers by their pointer address and then acquiring in that order
<nikolapdp> what are you talking about netbsduser`
<netbsduser`> nikolapdp: the linux "NT Sync" patch proposal
<nikolapdp> ah yeah
<nikolapdp> guess they don't care that much about that user case
<nikolapdp> *use
<kazinsal> mrrrrggggh fml tagilla did a 180 and put a bunch of BP into my face :((((
<nikolapdp> bp?
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<kazinsal> one of the highest penetration 7.62x39 cartridges in escape from tarkov
<nikolapdp> :(
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<Lia> I have a rolling-release distribution (Arch), will building a cross-compiler work? since I'll have to install a newer version of gcc everytime there's an update.
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<Lia> I think I have a misunderstanding. We build the cross-compiler once and use that only, right?
<nikolapdp> Lia: you can find some prebuilt toolchains here https://newos.org/toolchains/
<bslsk05> ​newos.org: Index of /toolchains
<Lia> Oh thanks!
<nikolapdp> no problem
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<heat_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)#Performance_issues "benchmarks between Mach and Ultrix on a MIPS R3000 showed a performance hit as great as 67% on some workloads"
<mjg> :d
<bslsk05> ​www.abortretry.fail: The Itanic Saga - by Bradford Morgan White
<bslsk05> ​www.abortretry.fail: So powerful, it's kind of ridiculous
<bslsk05> ​www.tomshardware.com: Industry group invalidates 2,600 official Intel CPU benchmarks — SPEC says the company's compiler used unfair optimizations to boost performance | Tom's Hardware
<heat_> haha lmao
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<Ermine> ULTRIX
<heat_> ultrix kernal
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<nikolapdp> K E R N A L
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<gog> korel
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<heat_> carl
<mcrod> hi
<kof123> nikolapdp: i had to go the other day, "magi" is surely pronounced "DJ" because it was a snake hieroglyph like "judge" it is shaped like Z or S, another author suspects that was a snake "zed's dead baby, zed's dead" cadmus spears him, or tiresias, or ...
<kof123> then you ride off on your chopper named "Grace" lol
<kof123> atalanta stuff surely too :D
<kof123> https://xkcd.com/380/ it actually looks like that, just make the tail go straight down
<bslsk05> ​xkcd - Emoticon
<nikolapdp> kof123 i am very confused
<zid> nortti:I have pakkij
<nortti> nice, hopefully something survived
<zid> Inded, anthrax, bad dragon and a salmiak
<zid> not had the POMMIX before, can you read it to me? :P;
<nortti> to be perfectly honest I forget what exactly it read
<zid> kovia lakritsi ja salmiakkimakeisia h&adot;rda lakrits och salmiakso"taker
<nortti> hard liquorice and salmiak candy, then the same in swedish
<zid> disgusting, how could you write swedish on something with a straight face
<nortti> the other should have swedish on it too
<zid> anyway thankies babe, likes me some salmiakki <3
<nortti> finnish and swedish being coöfficial languages after all
<zid> Written on the back in small writing is okay
<zid> written boldly on the front should be illegal
<nortti> there's some where it's all in swedish in the front, and then there's small finnish on the back
<zid> hell.
<zid> do we need to do a welfare check on denmark
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<zid> oh wrong IP, derp
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<zid> There, if only I could type, would have saved you some spam.
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<zid> finland gets my hostname this week
<nikolapdp> what does it mean zid
<zid> that I like salmiakki
<zid> thank you for coming to my tedx talk
<nikolapdp> enlightning
<nortti> 'wedrinkbooze.fi'
<nikolapdp> heh
<zid> nikolar's says that he's a dynamic isp that does telecommunications in serbia
<zid> less interesting imo
<bubuche87> Is it an issue if my future os will have a name that is already used for an os ?
<zid> depends, how good are you at getting sued
* zid quickly trademarks his OS name
<bubuche87> Well, I don't know if you can copyright os names.
<zid> you can trademark them
<zid> which is the way you protect names/logos/etc
<zid> but you still need to sue if it happens
<zid> Most OSS projects are neither trademarked, nor have the money to defend a court case
<zid> why not just... not steal names though?
<bubuche87> Because I wanted to use that name way before knowing it was already used.
<bubuche87> (Well, technically it's not exactly the same. I want to use EveOS, but there is already EVE-OS and EvOS. I could go leet speak with Ev30s but the "thirties" vibe is too strong XD)
<zid> Why not just call it Eve
<zid> It's both more generic, and a better name
<nikolapdp> `also think about how googleable your os would be with that name
<zid> FreeBOSD
<zid> blue of screen death
<bubuche87> FreeBSOD you mean.
<zid> I needed OS in there
<zid> and it still makes sense at least
<zid> Blue of screen? Death.
<nikolapdp> kek
<zid> MicrOSoft WindOwS, omg how have they kept this secret so long
<bubuche87> (MS-DOS = MicroSoft Denial-Of-Service)
<zid> nortti: The pommix is odd but still good
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<zid> The alt-left is very interested in taking shortcuts, the alt-right is very íntéréstéd ín ácúté áccénts
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<mjg> pro tip: don't order from burger king
<jimbzy> Did they mess up your Biggie Bag?
<mjg> i got what i ordered, it's just not good
<mjg> better than kfc for sure
<heat_> burger king is better than mcdonalds
<mjg> probably true
<childlikempress> what about eating good food
<jimbzy> I won't eat at any of those places anymore.
<jimbzy> They always offer me free food when I'm working there, and I respectfully decline.
<heat_> childlikempress, you have money for that?
<mjg> jimbzy: oh you are the vendor machine guy?
<mjg> childlikempress: i wasi n the mood for a burger
<heat_> i know you don't mean it, but "just eat good foodz!!!!11!1!" is profoundly classist
<bslsk05> ​'Jamie Oliver's War on Nuggets' by Folding Ideas (00:17:34)
<jimbzy> Yep
<mjg> burger king, as the name suggests, does not really serve them
<jimbzy> I switched to Red Team, though. I used to work for the Blue Team. ;)
<mjg> based and red teamed
<heat_> is jimbzy a tf2 character
<jimbzy> Yep. I'm the engineer.
<mjg> i have not had mcdonalds in like 12 years i think
<mjg> does it still suck to the same extent?
<childlikempress> heat_: yeah but mjg gets paid big bucks to scale kernalen
<jimbzy> I hate McDonald's with a passion.
<mjg> you mean food or the company
<mjg> :d
<jimbzy> Both.
<mjg> what did they do to you
<jimbzy> Mostly the company, though.
<heat_> childlikempress, call me when you find big bucks backing freebsd
<heat_> i bet he does it for free
<heat_> or "exposure"
<mjg> dude i'm literally on handouts
<jimbzy> They installed a bunch of high-tech equipment for the bozos to destroy.
<mjg> i had a friend working as a manager at mcdonalds
<mjg> he told me to never eat there
<mjg> ;d
<jimbzy> Automatic Beverage Systems, Multiplex remote chillers, etc.
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<jimbzy> Out of all the chains, it seems like Wendy's runs the tightest ship.
<jimbzy> Except for their Freestyle machines...
<mjg> do you know the goggins story about a "food place"?
<heat_> WHOS GONNA CARRY THE BOATS
<heat_> YOU ARE BUDDY
<heat_> YOU'RE GOING TO CARRY THE BOATS, AND THE LOGS
<zid> heat are you enjoying being a turk
<mjg> heat_: STAY HARD
<bslsk05> ​'if David Goggins was evil' by dankcube (00:02:45)
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