<mcrod>
for me, in a few hours it'll be ((0x7E7 | (1 << 3)) & (~0 << 3))
<mcrod>
yes it's UB leave me alone
<FireFly>
happy undefined behaviour? :o
<mcrod>
yes
* FireFly
nods
* FireFly
celebrates undefinedly
* Celelibi
undefinety celebrates new year
<mcrod>
the better expression is ((0x7E7 | (1 << 3)) ^ 0x7);
<Celelibi>
It's a constant, precompute it and be done with it.
<Celelibi>
You could write it 0x7E7 + 1. Or Ox7E8.
<zid>
I'm not actually sure how a 'UB constant' works
<mcrod>
you know
<mcrod>
why in the world are people thinking i'd actually write code like that...
<mcrod>
it's meant to be funny you silly gooses
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<zid>
I think it might just end up as IDB instead?
<mcrod>
what's idb?
<zid>
implementation defined behavior
<mcrod>
oh
<mcrod>
yes ok
<zid>
because the compiler is expressly allowed to do constant elimation, optimization, etc
<zid>
and use extended integer types
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<zid>
i.e gcc produces <source>:5:21: warning: integer overflow in expression of type 'int' results in '-2147483648' [-Woverflow]
<zid>
100) Thus, in the following initialization,
<zid>
the expression is a valid integer constant expression with value one.
<zid>
static int i = 2 || 1 / 0;
<zid>
"The semantic rules for the evaluation of a constant expression are the same as for nonconstant expressions" Whatever the fuck that means
<zid>
"If an integer constant cannot be represented by any type in its list and has no extended integer type, then the integer constant has no type." not sure what this means either :p
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<heat>
happy new years friendses
<heat>
new year*
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<zid>
heat: enourmous sibling is viewing you
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<heat>
nice
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<heat>
enourmous sibling vs exhibitionism fetishists
<heat>
a duel for the ages
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<epony>
HN2020.4Y!!!!
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<bombuzal>
!!
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<gog>
hi
<sham1>
hi
<sham1>
A new age is upon us
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<kof123>
you know chinese sign language is gonna get ya ASL!!! gonna git ya </epony>
<kof123>
can we not please :D
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<netbsduser>
just studied that cellular irix document
<netbsduser>
wonderful
<netbsduser>
i love irix
<gog>
hi
<gog>
i like solaris
<zid>
I like sir laos
<netbsduser>
i also like solaris
<zid>
gog did you see the xkcd yet
<netbsduser>
they call it "the queen of unixen"
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<gog>
zid: what
<gog>
which one
<zid>
xkcd.com
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<heat_>
mjg, yo can you explain something?
<heat_>
why can't the default perf record be used for flamegraphs?
<heat_>
i think it uses cycles as the counter
<mjg>
it does not collect traces
<mjg>
just ips
<heat_>
but you can make it collect traces
<heat_>
but the end result ends up being quite a few ways out of the -F 999 or whatever
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<heat_>
and i don't get it, shouldn't cycles be somewhat correlated to time? at least if the CPU frequency is somewhat stable?
<heat_>
if you try it, the output is super blocky
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<mjg>
then it's not reporting relative counts
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<Shaddox404>
HI, had a few questions: 1. are there any OS used in production environments/daily driven OSes that have a microkernel?
<Shaddox404>
2. is it easy to develop a microkernel OS?
<heat_>
no and no
<heat_>
unless you count xnu as a microkernel
<Shaddox404>
3. Are there compatibility issues with applications that are written in languages like Java or Python?
<heat_>
erm, i guess fuchsia
<heat_>
but the "production environment" there is super restricted
<sham1>
Would we count fuchsia as being in production?
<heat_>
3 - no
<heat_>
it has been deployed
<heat_>
so in a strict sense, yeah, it's in production
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<Shaddox404>
I see
<Shaddox404>
Fuchsia is in production???
<heat_>
yes
<sham1>
If anything, due to the way microkernels work, you could even use python or java or whatnot for some of the OS services
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<heat_>
the way i see it, there are two main problems with microkernels: 1) making it fast 2) making it compatible with traditional software
<heat_>
neither are trivial to solve
<heat_>
and 1) requires real expertise
<sham1>
Of course, *puts on hazmat suit*, microkernels are like microservices and have most of the same problems of complexity. On top of which are also the OS-ey bits
<heat_>
>microservices
<heat_>
is fuchsia webscale
<heat_>
does it support sharding
<Shaddox404>
Did fuchsia OS solve 1 and 2 though? I have never seen any builds of it online, although im hesitant to get it running on my hardware (since it is my only daily driver)
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<heat_>
no
<heat_>
i mean, it's probably okayishly fast, but it's not the main aim AFAIK (and i also have no benches, but it will almost assuredly suck compared to a monolithic kernel)
<heat_>
as for 2, the Traditional Google Solution is to NIH
<sham1>
Then again, how much would the speed matter? Because yeah, microkernels really aren't known for that and the qualities you usually look for with them are different from raw performance. Resilience and such
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<heat_>
the speed matters as long as you can do your job effectively
<heat_>
like, fuchsia's fine for the nest hubs, but in a server context? it'd get its ass handed to it by freebsd or linux or probably even windows
<sham1>
Again, it's just like with microservices generally. A monolith usually can do things faster because for example communication between distinct components wouldn't require marshalling and message transmission. But on the flip side you get resilience, ability to distribute and so on
* kof123
looks up nest hub <shudders>
<sham1>
At the cost of increased complexity
<Shaddox404>
I mean as long as if it is a laptop/phone -> open a browser, word processor and the ability to install other apps using a store or an application package
<moon-child>
minix is a ukernel running in production on your intel cpu
<kof123>
qnx claims to be ...
<Shaddox404>
Yea its in the Intel ME chip. runs a customized version of MINIX
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<heat_>
oh shit, minix, yeah good one
<heat_>
totally forgot that
<sham1>
It's okay, so did probably Dr. Tannenbaum
<heat_>
the real question is: do you need resilience?
<Shaddox404>
And there comes the problem of SecureBoot, cant dualboot windows and MINIX/FreeBSD together, i use linux for just that reason, so that i can dual boot it with Windows
<heat_>
like, how commonly does your kernel crash, that you want to move all of it to userspace?
<moon-child>
lol
<moon-child>
minix/freebsd???
<heat_>
windows is less stable, but linux for instance has crashed... 0 times for me?
<Shaddox404>
yea, i tried MINIX and FreeBSD, but since there is no SecureBoot support, i cant dualboot it with Windows
<moon-child>
'I'd like to interject for a moment. What you're calling minix is actually minix/freebsd or, as I've taken to calling it, minix plus freebsd'
<heat_>
and i run the latest stable branch
<sham1>
Hm, it's apparently just Tanenbaum. Weird, I've always thought that it would have a doube-N
<moon-child>
i have had linux kernel panics
<heat_>
really?
<Shaddox404>
No i tried to install and use MINIX and FreeBSD alongside Windows i mean. My bad, i didnt mean MINIX/FreeBSD like GNU/Linux
<heat_>
GNU SLASH LINUX
<moon-child>
yeah
<moon-child>
don't remembsd all of them but some were because of a buggy wifi dongle driver that definitely wouldn't have taken the whole system down if it had been in userspace
<netbsduser>
Shaddox404: they are widespread in every niche apart from desktops, laptops, smartphones, and web servers
<heat_>
>buggy wifi dongle driver
<heat_>
isn't that your problem in the first place?
<Shaddox404>
For me Windows is absolutely crap. I really dont like it, made the jump to OpenSUSE and am happy with it.
<heat_>
like, in-tree code is usually pretty stable
<heat_>
out-of-tree code? depends. nvidia for me is usually pretty stable
<netbsduser>
as to minix it's really tied to netbsd, not to freebsd
<heat_>
shitty wifi dongles do be shitty wifi dongles tho
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<Shaddox404>
Oh. I couldnt find an OS running on a Microkernel till now :\
<netbsduser>
andrew tenenbom was funding his phd students to make minix something close to a drop-in substitute for the netbsd kernel until he ran out of grants
<heat_>
taxpayer money going towards netbsd2 electric boogaloo microkernel version
<moon-child>
it was in tree
<Shaddox404>
I remember North Korea and China having their own Linux distros
<netbsduser>
ridiculous on north korea's part
<Shaddox404>
true. SomeOrdinaryGamers covered it once
<netbsduser>
if they are so juche they should invent their own parallel-universe OS which will enchant and allure western researchers with the promise of a road not taken
<Shaddox404>
HAH
<kof123>
yeah but then they'd have to come west to get the path not taken and we'd just switch places :D
<kof123>
it is like gog, you have to pet them both
<kof123>
besides, soviets had ternary computers :D
<kof123>
if we are going paths not taken...
<heat_>
moon-child, qwhat if it was written in rust
<heat_>
fearless concurrency
<Shaddox404>
I saw someone on YT write their own OS in RUST
<Shaddox404>
pretty neat
<heat_>
vs C's scared shitless threading
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<netbsduser>
thank RUST for the first memory-safe kernel
<Shaddox404>
Have been watching ReactOS, i dont think it will replace Windows anytime soon though
<netbsduser>
they have been working on their ARMv3 project for over 10 years and still no release in sight
<moon-child>
heat_: oh shit
<moon-child>
then who was microkernel ?????????
<netbsduser>
despite the name ARMv3 it has nothing to do with acorn RISC machines and everything to do with virtual memory management
<Shaddox404>
That is confusing now
<netbsduser>
although they wanted to hew close to windows, the reactos vm became full of innovations without precedent in windows, so the armv3 initiative is to get rid of these innovations and return to a true reimplementation of what windows did
<Shaddox404>
Was Fuchsia OS created with the initial objective to "replace" android in the future?
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<netbsduser>
this is a popular suspicion, but google wouldn't let anything like that slip
<Shaddox404>
I see
<netbsduser>
similar announcements of replacements by firms in the past have led to what i think the mbas call "consumer resistance"
<heat_>
just a friendly reminder that some people here work on it and this kind of speculation is uncomfortable to deal with
<Shaddox404>
I mean, unless the OS can work with all the popular OS applications. Eg. Imagine a Linux distro that can run Windows apps, Linux apps seamlessly without additional configurations. I think people, especially OEMs might opt to pre-load and ship that, rather than paying a license to Microsoft
<kof123>
i'm not...trying to be negative, but you realize people have been saying this since <checks clipboard> ...1995 maybe?
<netbsduser>
that was called Lindows and Microsoft arranged for them to meet a gruesome end
<Shaddox404>
My bad @heat_ I'll keep that in mind
<kof123>
^ java, .net, openstep, ...
<kof123>
everything in the browser...
<heat_>
i'm very negatively surprised by this slab allocator
<heat_>
smh
<kof123>
some ppl claim beos also had a settlement ;D
<netbsduser>
it's not even a slab allocator
<netbsduser>
no object caching
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<heat_>
that's not a requirement
<heat_>
linux doesn't have object caching, neither do i
<netbsduser>
if you don't have object caching it's just a zone allocator like they had 10 years earlier in mach
<bslsk05>
www.kernel.org: Memory Management APIs — The Linux Kernel documentation
<heat_>
the ctor is used once, there's no dtor
<heat_>
"The ctor is run when new pages are allocated by the cache."
<netbsduser>
there is a reason why the paper that introduced the slab allocator is called "slab: an object-caching allocator" or words to that effect; the benchmarks bonwick shows in that paper are undeniable
<heat_>
they are deniable 30 years later
<heat_>
just as they were deniable 20 years ago when linux did away with the dtor
<netbsduser>
surely you're joking
<heat_>
i am not
<mjg>
heat_: fearlessly scalable
<heat_>
i wonder how many uses the ctor parameter has
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<moon-child>
wait it gets even better
<moon-child>
why does usable_size lock
<netbsduser>
i see many even in recent code like exFat's driver
<netbsduser>
it does look like they gimped it a bit by abolishing the destructor but it still provides a measure of caching this way
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<heat_>
ok its only used in fs drivers for the inode_init_once thing
<mjg>
anything fs-related is i/o bound!!
<mjg>
trust me, i'm a geezer
<heat_>
yeah this is a cargo culted piece of code
<heat_>
literally the same function, same code, same name, used in a bunch of super.c
<heat_>
lmfao
<heat_>
the inode_init_once thing just zeroes a bunch of fields, it's essentially useless garbo