<bslsk05>
wiki.osdev.org: Interrupts - OSDev Wiki
<heat>
geistvax, oh does it reset your position when redrawing?
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* kof673
notices old pidgin crashing/vanishing for unknown reason, compiles dependencies needed for old xchat (and pidgin shortly): https://0x0.st/s/oKCXsPXyHfMjC0Ixfkn00g/HRHX.txt 399M total old knoppix does not seem to include 'dev' stuff like headers, so that is perhaps a bit smaller, but .......
<heat>
i mean, you're compiling a lot of X11 deps :v
<kof673>
package list should be read to the tune of: When you've got heartburn, nausea, indigestion, upset stomach....
<kof673>
knoppix has packages, but no idea if they are still anywhere :D
<kof673>
the real trick is i did that on a p4, and this is a p3 running a binary over a sshfs mount lol libffi needs told not to use asm...i'm not sure if gmp has such an option :/
<kof673>
so i may crash at any time due to that, but seems to work lol
<kof673>
crypto stuff wants compiled for a particular cpu
<kof673>
well send utf or something, i suspect maybe that was it lol see if you can crash me :D
<zid>
fuck sake, cunt dodging ignores
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<kof673>
is there any standard for pkg-config? atk.pc (no version in filename) gdk-2.0 libpng12,14,16 ..... i guess there are 3 standards ;D
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<adder>
git clone git://sourceware.org/git/binutils-gdb.git Is this what I need to build?
<zid`>
configure: error: source directory already configured; run "make distclean" there first
<zid`>
yes
<zid`>
very non-descriptive :p
<geist>
huh,. looks like modern qemu sparc emulates a sparcstation 5 out the box
<geist>
just straight boots netbsd with a gui and everything
<zid`>
unfortunate
<kof673>
one small step to sparc nextstep
<geist>
oh yeah
<zid`>
netbsd should require more pain than that imo
<geist>
nicely it also drops into a open source openfirmware that you can just do stuff with
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<adder>
I got myself a cross-compiler.
<adder>
Thanks, zid. You can send your picture over so I can frame it and hang it next to Tito.
<adder>
Now I only need to write a kernel.
<geist>
trying to figure out how to hook up my raspberry pi pico
<geist>
it was fairly complicated, i should get a carrier board for it
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<zid`>
Oh dear lord, I just found out that rocketdyne tested a hypergolic engine in the 60s
<zid`>
And it seems they literally looked at the periodic table and looked for the most reactive things they could find
<zid`>
So they settled on molten lithium, and fluorine. But that doesn't produce enough ISP due to the mass, so they added *hydrogen*
<zid`>
For those who don't know their chemistry, that means the exhaust was largely hydrofluroic acid at thousands of degrees and kph
<Mutabah>
Iirc that was one of the last entires in the book "Ignition"
<Mutabah>
Which is full of florid descriptions of the wonderful concoctions propellant engineers came up with
<zid`>
yea I read most of it at some point
<zid`>
apparently I never made it to the best part
<Mutabah>
The tail end has some great passages
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<Ermine>
heat: use htop, it's better
<kof673>
*lorden lazarus/osiris is still there in the underworld too ...sitting on the waters like a frog lol i have no wish to discuss these things, just FYI
<kof673>
lost in translation
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<adder>
I'm confused. A book I read had a couple paragraphs on segmentation, which is dividing up the memory into variable sized "segments" in order to logically separate address spaces and e.g. make code execute-only and data read-write only. Do I need to "worry" about segmentation as such on amd64? What about all the segment registers?
<geist>
no
<geist>
amd64 for the most part, except some residual nonsense, disables all forms of segmentation
<geist>
once you get into 64bit mode, it's all just vestigial
<geist>
the cpu is implicitly fully 64bit (*), and the only protection you get is via paging
<adder>
geist: Ok, thanks. One more question while we're at it: Can the transition from real to long be direct, that is, real -> long, or need it be real -> protected -> long?
<geist>
* except for the fact that it's really only 47 or 56 bits and some of the bits are unimplemented
<geist>
the latter
<geist>
i dont think there's a direct bounce
<geist>
or if there is it's a hack
<adder>
Ok. Thanks.
<geist>
the only legit way to do it is via a 2 stage bounce, but it's not really that hard once you grok it, and it's been done to death if you just want to copy it
<geist>
it's not that educational, so i'd recommend just cribbing something together from examples and move on with life
<kazinsal>
there is sort of a direct bounce but yeah it's a horrible hack
<kazinsal>
and is not necessarily guaranteed to work
<geist>
right
<kazinsal>
I think it triple faults on zen platforms
<gog>
yeah it relies on an invalid configuration of CR0 and CR4 according to the spec
<kazinsal>
but the whole real -> 32-bit protected -> 64-bit long transition is something you ever do once and then never think about again
<geist>
yah exactly. and there's enough examples that you can probalby just copy/paste it
<geist>
the only real tricky thign is you temporarily need 32bit GDT entries, and the GDT has to be < 4GB
<geist>
and then once you get into 64bit land it's like the sun opens up and you can do whatever you want. and the flowers and bees start to fly around
<geist>
except not really bwecause it's still x86.
<gog>
long mode is better in numerous ways tho
<geist>
yah i'm being sarcastic
<gog>
namely instruction-relative addressing
<geist>
i do recommend getting into long mode and forgetting the old stuff exists
<kazinsal>
not having to worry about segments
<gog>
and not worrying abotu segments yes
<geist>
intel is i think finally going to drag us into the 2000s soon
<kazinsal>
I still need to sit down and actually bang out a new portable 64-bit kernel core
<kazinsal>
I've been saying I'm going to do it for years now and just haven't
<geist>
do it! i've been actually doing LK work this evening and i'm happy i am
<geist>
when you are going to visit?
<kazinsal>
ideally I'd be able to do x86-64, aarch64, and rv64 builds
<kazinsal>
good question! I recently started a new job so I'm still figuring out the whole vacation policy etc and getting through probation
<kazinsal>
but it's a union gig at a public university here so I'
<kazinsal>
I'm sure it's fairly lax on that front
<geist>
ah UBC?
<kazinsal>
KPU
<geist>
huh! TIL
<kazinsal>
I'm hoping to get a week off in the late spring and do a trip, since I've got a convention going on down in vegas in october that's going to take a week or so as well
<geist>
not a bad time too, since the weather starts looking nicer
<gog>
i'm rewriting my boot process entirely and i am very proud of my cursed dynamic linking
<kazinsal>
yeah, I'd like some sun while I'm stuck in the parking lot that is the I-5 through Everett
<geist>
gog: oh sweet, yay!
* geist
hands out encouragement
<geist>
it's the least i can do
<gog>
but for the next few hours i need to think about my actual job
<geist>
(it's about all i've been doing lately)
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<GeDaMo>
16 byte aligned means the least significant 4 bits of the address will be 0
<nikolapdp>
adder: 16 byte aligned means that the address is divisible by 16
<GeDaMo>
"For the arc, hppa, i386 using ELF, iq2000, m68k, or1k, s390, sparc, tic4x and xtensa, the first expression is the alignment request in bytes." https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/as/Align.html
<bslsk05>
sourceware.org: Align (Using as)
<adder>
So why does the stack need this alignment?
<nikolapdp>
because that's what the processor wants
<nortti>
yeah, you probably should not expect correct info from those
<nikolapdp>
adder it's 16 byter primarily for simd registers if i remember correctl
<adder>
Alright, thanks all.
<GeDaMo>
Yeah, some SSE operations require 16 byte alignment
<mjg>
this does not explain why would you do it in the kernel
<mjg>
if you -mno-sse and pinky swear to not change it ever
<mjg>
what kind of alignment is required/
<mjg>
by the arch
<mjg>
i think c on LP64 will de facto require at least 8
<mjg>
to avoid uB
<nikolapdp>
i think 8 is the minimum
<nikolapdp>
but i am not sure if you'd still need 16
<mjg>
i'm mildly curious if popf and other suckers work with a misaligned stack
<nikolapdp>
could also be true that the compiler assumes that the stack is 16 aligned
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<heat>
mjg, nikolapdp, nortti, adder: that statement is correct
<nikolapdp>
which one, there were multiple
<mjg>
YES
<heat>
the x86_64 sysv abi requires 16-byte alignment before call, every function entry is misaligned by 8 bytes
<nortti>
that part is correct, the explanation for why is wrong
<GeDaMo>
If you're talking about adder's paste, it said that the stack was still aligned after a call
<heat>
there was no why explanation
<nortti>
"This ensures that, after the call instruction pushes the return address onto the stack (which occupies 8 bytes), the stack pointer (rsp or esp for 64-bit and 32-bit architectures, respectively) is still 16-byte aligned."
<heat>
oh, tricky
<heat>
lovely stuff
<GeDaMo>
"That boy ain't right" :P
<heat>
mjg, btw there's a switch you can use to avoid the 16b alignment in the kernel
<heat>
which linux does use
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<zid`>
yea gcc keeps changingthe default, but it's just an option
<heat>
they changed it once like 10 years ago
<zid`>
yep, constantly
<zid`>
heat how's the HRT going
<heat>
it was a mess, they unilateraly broke the ABI on linux
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<hbag>
very nice that you can't develop for the "multi-platform" app UI on linux. thanks michaelsoft
<nortti>
which one are you talking of?
<zid`>
did someone insane change nick
<zid`>
or is this a new insane person
<hbag>
nortti: .NET MAUI
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<nikolapdp>
zid` relax we're all insane here
<hbag>
i am world famous poster hbag
<mjg>
> reddit starting going downhill after the first comment
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* kof673
awards nikolapdp cheshire cat points
<Ermine>
heat: "We don't break userspace"
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<adder>
Halp. I'm running Meaty Skeleton and when I try to boot in qemu, it displays GRUB menu, I select my kernel, and it says Couldn't boot from floppy/hard disk (essentially) and reverts back to the menu selection.
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<adder>
arch/x86_64/crti.S:5: Error: operand size mismatch for `push' I was getting this error during assembly on line: push %ebp, so I made all %ebp %rbp, and popl popq, then it compiled, but then the error I described above happens.
<nortti>
isn't meaty skeleton 32-bit?
<nortti>
it looks like you're using the wrong cross-compiler here
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<nortti>
yeah, you should use i686-elf
<adder>
Well I eventually want a 64bit kernel.
<nortti>
sure, but you need to handle that differently and iirc do the transition into long mode manually if booting with grub
<bslsk05>
github.com: bootstrap/boot/long.asm at master · zid/bootstrap · GitHub
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<zid`>
It's really weird to do a file split on line 42
<zid`>
almost everyone does it this way
<nortti>
I find mixing different kinds of code in one file to be a bit errorprone, but it's true that it's not a big section, and you're unlikely to mess that up here
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<adder>
What's the equivalent GNU assembler directive for 'bits 32'?
<nortti>
.code32
<adder>
I think I'll study zid's code instead of heat's since heat's is 900 lines.
<bslsk05>
github.com: bootstrap/boot/boot.asm at master · zid/bootstrap · GitHub
<heat>
also you should really do 32-bit first
<heat>
it's much easier
<nortti>
< adder> https://github.com/zid/bootstrap/blob/master/boot/boot.asm#L20-L21 Why is ebx pushed twice? ← the second one is presumably just there to take up space, since in the 32-bit x86 API function arguments are located under the return address, and there is jumps to (instead of calling) the main function
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<nikolapdp>
imagine having ads
<kof673>
always be selling you are marketing yourself all the time j /k
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<netbsduser>
heat: i don't think 32-bit is any easier
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<netbsduser>
harder if anything, unless you impose restrictions (support no more than ~1.5gb RAM, so you can have a direct map and avoid the complication introduced by not having one)
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<heat>
sure but x86-64 bootstrap is a lot harder
<heat>
you need to actually understand the processor, the MMU, memory mappings, paging before you can start/know what you're doing
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<heat>
like, for 32-bit x86 you just boot, ezpz. when you're in the C world, you can look at your multiboot structure (or whatever boot protocol) without messing with paging, without worrying if the pages are mapped
<heat>
what's a direct map? i don't know, we'll figure it out later!
<geist>
i think we were mostly suggesting going directly to 64bit because then all the segmentatino and stuff is simpler
<geist>
also being that that's what they were asking about: what to do with all the segmentation stuff, etc
<geist>
'well if you go directly to 64bit you dont really need to mess with most of that'
<geist>
though really you do
<heat>
well for 32-bit flat the GDT setup is very similar
<heat>
with a notable exception for %gs and %fs and maybe LDT thingies, but that's *way* more advanced
<netbsduser>
i don't bother with any of that stuff, i just use limine to get straight into a reasonable state
<netbsduser>
i prefer to write the OS than wrangle legacies
<netbsduser>
the amd64 still needs a bit more wrangling with legacies than do some other arches but for a beginner i think the abundance of information counterbalances that problem
<heat>
wrangling legacies is part of the fun
<heat>
for me at least
<adder>
I'm trying to boot into parts of zid's thing, but am running into: ld: i386:x86-64 architecture of input file `boot/main.o' is incompatible with i386 output
<netbsduser>
i like them on my own terms, it's why i have a port to 68k amigas
<netbsduser>
but even that is mostly less legacy-laden than anything PC-compatible
<heat>
i had a lot of fun writing my 900 line boot.S and making my kernel physically relocatable, etc
<heat>
it was fun and a nice break from mega-concurrent kernel land
<heat>
no locks, no SMP, no PESSIMAL, just an ISA and some simple page tably bois
<Ermine>
idk if this is the case for minix
<heat>
MINIX!!
<Ermine>
but it uses netbsd bootloader and I haven't found its sources yet
<geist>
indeed, there's something pleasing about writing a pile of assembly that has basically one task
<bslsk05>
zid/bootstrap - AMD64 bootstrap example. Sets up long mode and paging starting from a 32bit ELF booted by grub. (0 forks/0 stargazers)
<Ermine>
i may be wrong though
<heat>
Ermine, i wrote a lot of the hard parts of the EFI codepaths in C, and it's risky but it mostly just works if you know what you're doing
<heat>
because you're effectively running on the wrong address
<heat>
it sometimes works except when it doesn't, and that's the tricky part
<netbsduser>
a gentleman on the osdev discord is kindly preparing a bootloader for unusual platforms like ppc macs, sparcstations, and (i hope, if not, i'll contribute) m68k amigas, which was the only place i bothered with relocation nonsense (by necessity)
<Ermine>
well I won't try to do that
<netbsduser>
it will really democratise fun platforms by letting one get down to the OS stuff straight away
<Bitweasil>
lol. The early stuff _is_ the fun stuff!
<netbsduser>
speak for yourself
<netbsduser>
my priority was to implement UVM according to Cranor's thesis as quickly as possible
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<Bitweasil>
I'm just trying to get more hobbies that don't involve computers. :/ Kind of burned out on the things.
<netbsduser>
try analogue photography
<netbsduser>
it's very satisfying
<Bitweasil>
_nods_ I've got an old 35mm camera laying around, I should finish out the roll of film in it and see what's on it.
<nikolapdp>
netbsduser i aD
<nikolapdp>
i also want to get into analogue photography
<nikolapdp>
eventually lol
<adder>
I'm so stupid right now that I forgot my sudo password.
<kof673>
that's recoverable surely. did you forget your password to decrypt drives? (happened to someone i knew) :D
<adder>
I was switched to Serbian Latin layout somehow.
<Bitweasil>
Ouch. That'll hose you pretty good... :/ Both of those.
<adder>
So, git clone of zid's thing works just fine.
<nikolapdp>
i sometimes forget i am on serbian cyrillic and wonder why i can't log in
<zid`>
nikolapdp when gm
<heat>
i don't think nikolapdp can reach gm at his age
<heat>
maybe FM, but that would already be hard
<Cindy>
FM?
<Cindy>
:o
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<nikolapdp>
heat care to explain what an fm is
<Cindy>
nah nah
<Cindy>
my mind was like frequency modulation synthesis when i heard that
<nikolapdp>
yeah same
<kof673>
it has to with management of sporting teams surely :D
<zid`>
fetid master
<zid`>
maybe he could be a WGM
<heat>
he could be a WGM but he'd need to go through HRT first
<heat>
and i'm not sure if HRT is harder than actually reaching a higher title
<zid`>
hrt doesn't count for going for a wgm I don't think
<zid`>
ovaries only division
<heat>
lets give it a shot first
<heat>
worst case he ends up on fox news
<nikolapdp>
why would i be on fox news, i am from serbia
<heat>
medved news
<nikolapdp>
that's bear
<heat>
i know
<heat>
it's a more appropriate eastern european animal
<zid`>
I vote we just give him the wireless vibrator
<heat>
YES
<heat>
magnum carlo vs wireless vibrator who wins??
<kazinsal>
wifi buttplugs are now mandatory
<zid`>
I'm just annoyed he was good *enough* that he could just claim he was playing out of his mind and it didn't immediately count as obvious cheating
<zid`>
cus apparently he couldn't explain the position at all, and he's a total irl rager
<heat>
sorry kazinsal i'm anti-wifi i use ethernet buttplugs only
<zid`>
12 year old playing cod type
<heat>
tbh i'm not sure if he was actually cheating
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<heat>
and if he was, it's very hard to catch
<zid`>
yea that's the thing, there's room for doubt and it's annoying
<heat>
he's a high rated GM, he can explain most positions, only the most autistic of stockfish moves will befuddle him
<nikolapdp>
mandatory butt inspections i guess
<zid`>
nikolar: You wish
<zid`>
and besides
<zid`>
making it a job doesn't mean you'll be the one who gets to do it, sorry
<bslsk05>
www.chess.com: Saint Louis Chess Club Excludes Niemann For 'Inappropriate Behavior' - Chess.com
<zid`>
He's aI'dlove to see him excluded from events just because he's a twat
<zid`>
hour and a half until honzukii
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<kof673>
mjg: send that to redhat :) Down with meritocracy [...] The man who coined the word four decades ago [..] The book was a satire meant to be a warning
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<kof673>
"and the imagined final revolt against the meritocracy in 2033" they still got a few years lol
<sham1>
heat: serves him right for using vibrators
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<sham1>
Like, when both Magnus Carlsen and Hikaru Nakamura call your play sus, there's probably something in there
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<mjg>
> sanitizer needs at least i586 on x86 and at least v8 on sparc, unfortunately.
<mjg>
+# XXX GCC 12 sanitizers has higher minimal requirements upon some CPUs.