<heat>
because i did find a specific kernel ddk function for that
<netbsduser`>
the Winternals books describe use of the try-catch mechanism to do this, i think that's just a convenience function
<heat>
ah, gotcha, thanks
<heat>
oh right "Available starting with Windows 8.1."
<netbsduser`>
i do know that in the original "inside windows nt" book they are very proud of the exception handling mechanism and fawn over its many uses in the kernel
heat has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
heat has joined #osdev
<heat>
do gcc or clang support SEH?
<gog>
iirc they don't because it's still patent-encumbered?
<gog>
ahh ok, apparently it's on the feature map for clang 19
zxrom has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<heat>
not to be that guy, but EFI really is missing exceptions
<heat>
that's the only thing it's missing to be truly great
Arthuria has joined #osdev
<childlikempress>
girl FACTS
<gog>
EFI_EXCEPTION_HANDLER_PROTOCOL
<heat>
go off queen
heat_ has joined #osdev
heat has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<bslsk05>
Speykious/cve-rs - Blazingly 🔥 fast 🚀 memory vulnerabilities, written in 100% safe Rust. 🦀 (71 forks/2329 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
pretty_dumm_guy has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.5]
pretty_dumm_guy has joined #osdev
pretty_dumm_guy has quit [Client Quit]
MarchHare has joined #osdev
<CompanionCube>
wikipedia says gcc 4.8+ with mingw supports SEH, so
\Test_User has joined #osdev
<heat_>
yeah but is that also supported in C?
<heat_>
i meant the actual C __try __catch extension stuff
gbowne1 has joined #osdev
ramenu_ has joined #osdev
ramenu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
gbowne1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<gog>
__gatekeep __gaslight __girlboss
<heat_>
is using reserved identifiers girlboss?
gbowne1 has joined #osdev
gbowne1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
gbowne1 has joined #osdev
<pounce>
gaslighting the C standard
vdamewood has joined #osdev
xenos1984 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<vdamewood>
High!
Arthuria has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
\Test_User has quit [Quit: eee]
m3a has joined #osdev
xenos1984 has joined #osdev
<kof123>
> a toxic bastard that could not cooperate with people > dude 90% of opensource is that that means it is enterprise ready to take over the commercial world!
<bslsk05>
'Episode 195: David Leonhardt and the Elite Consensus Manufacturing Machine' by Citations Needed Podcast (01:20:43)
* kof123
throws mjg a fish, puts it on his tab. this is how bartending works in mexico :D
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
MarchHare has quit [Quit: Leaving]
navi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.1.2]
<zid>
nikolapdp: GM yet?
<kof123>
i don't follow these things, but "History" page still says: > The ultimate goal of the DragonFly project at its inception was to provide native clustering support in the kernel
<kof123>
> The HAMMER filesystem is also intended to serve as a basis for the clustering and other work that makes up the second phase of the project.
<kof123>
i don't know how that lines up as "versus ZFS" just this was there years ago too IIRC or planned anyways...
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
<kof123>
3.8 4 June 2014 i never ran it because internet says they dropped 32-bit way back then perhaps...
<kof123>
homepage IIRC used to say the goal was secure anonymous "clustering" over the internet or something like that
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
gog has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
neo|desktop has joined #osdev
Neo has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
ramenu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
elderK has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
frkazoid333 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
heat_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Arthuria has joined #osdev
Arthuria has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<geist>
you know i dont think i've ever installed dragonflybsd
lentement has joined #osdev
<kof123>
mjg (i am listening): Can the Wisdom of Crowds Help Fix Social Media's Trust Issue? www.wired.com Sharing Information Corrupts Wisdom of Crowds - WIRED The Web and the Wisdom of Crowds - WIRED www.wired.com Turns Out the Internet Is Bad at Guessing How Many Coins Are in a Jar www.wired.com i was just looking for the 2nd but yeah :D
<bslsk05>
www.wired.com: WIRED - The Latest in Technology, Science, Culture and Business | WIRED
<kof123>
it was known a long time ago anyways :D
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
gbowne1 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
bliminse has quit [Quit: leaving]
lentement has joined #osdev
bliminse has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
sbalmos has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
sbalmos has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
Matt|home has quit [Quit: Leaving]
vdamewood has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
lentement has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
lentement has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
masoudd has joined #osdev
kof123 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
navi has joined #osdev
rustyy has quit [Quit: leaving]
rustyy has joined #osdev
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
pretty_dumm_guy has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
neo|desktop has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
FreeFull has quit []
netbsduser` has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Cindy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Cindy has joined #osdev
<zid>
nikolapdp really going hard on the tgm3, not heard a peep from him since I told him about it
goliath has joined #osdev
gog has joined #osdev
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
navi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.1.2]
navi has joined #osdev
ramenu_ has joined #osdev
<nikolar>
Yeah wonder what happened to him
<gog>
hi
<xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF>
o/
<zid>
nikolapdp: I spent the 15 minutes to rewrite the input layer to support 2 players properly
<zid>
so now i can bind keyboard to real keys at the same time as joystick
<zid>
no more alt-tab bug
<nikolar>
Very nice zid
<nikolar>
Now you can play with a friend when you find one
<nikolar>
Hello gog
<gog>
hello nikolar
<GeDaMo>
What kind of machine is an 'r'? :|
<nikolar>
spaRc
<GeDaMo>
If nikolapdp is on a pdp, nikolar is on an 'r'
ramenu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<GeDaMo>
Ah :)
<nikolar>
Kek
gog is now known as gogzen
<nikolar>
gog is team red
xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
elderK has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.1.1]
masoudd has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
ramenu_ has joined #osdev
Shaddox404 has joined #osdev
[itchyjunk] has joined #osdev
ramenu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
gogzen has quit [Quit: byee]
<zid>
nikolapdp: And now I actually fixed that update so it actually works!
<zid>
I did keyboard is player 2 in the config, tested it, pushed
<zid>
then realized I never wrote the code to have keyboard play on a specific side, it *always* plays p2 side, it was hardcoded, and my test lined up with the hardcode :P
xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF has joined #osdev
aleamb has joined #osdev
Shaddox404 is now known as Shaddox_AFK
Shaddox_AFK is now known as Shaddox404
gog has joined #osdev
<nikolar>
Heh that's funny
<gog>
hi
<zid>
higog
<gog>
hizid
<gog>
i cleaned my computer
<zid>
sick
<zid>
I've never done that
<gog>
gross
<zid>
It's too new!
<zid>
I cleaned.. the heatsink, on my previous computer, a couple of times
<zid>
never dust the mobo or anything
<gog>
dusted the inside and brushed the keyboard thoroughly and cleaned the shel
<bslsk05>
'Making Cubane Finale - It's Done' by Amateur Chemistry (00:19:43)
<zid>
his accent is weird
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
<nikolar>
zid he is polish apparently
<zid>
why does he sing what he speaks
<zid>
that should be portugoose and russian
<zid>
not polish
<nikolar>
I don't know
<nikolar>
He set Poland as his country on YouTube
<nikolar>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<gog>
i know several english-speaking polish people and their accent is not very much like theirs
<gog>
this*
<zid>
My best guess is just that this is what he *thinks* an annotation voice sounds like
<zid>
and he's.. not very accurate
<zid>
I think he's doing a bad immitation of nile red, who does a bad immitation of someone who can speak well
<zid>
and we get.. this
aleamb has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<gog>
"and it was looking really good"
<netbsduser`>
heat said yesterday something to the effect of "if your thread struct is 256 bytes in length, you can have no more than mem size / 256 bytes' worth of threads", but on netbsd you can have more
<netbsduser`>
processes in their near-entirety can be swapped under extreme circumstances
xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
heat_ has joined #osdev
<heat_>
netbsduser`, i mean, if struct user isn't your limitation (because it's pageable), then struct proc is
<heat_>
and if everything is pageable, then your limitation is memsize + swapsize
<heat_>
and if none of those are limits somehow, your limitation is address_space_size
<heat_>
this reminds me: most of the conventional defence against refcount overflow attacks is just "you won't be able to allocate enough memory for that" or "you'll never be able to actually overflow it" or both
<heat_>
say you have a struct file with a 32-bit refcount, you could try to dup it 2^32 times, but you'll run out of address space and die
ramenu__ has joined #osdev
ramenu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF has joined #osdev
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
masoudd has joined #osdev
lentement has joined #osdev
dzwdz has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
dzwdz has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Shaddox_AFK has joined #osdev
Shaddox_AFK has quit [Client Quit]
Arthuria has joined #osdev
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
lentement has joined #osdev
aleamb has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
goliath has quit [Quit: SIGSEGV]
lentement has joined #osdev
netbsduser` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
netbsduser` has joined #osdev
masoudd has quit [Quit: Leaving]
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jack_rabbit has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
lentement has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
lentement has joined #osdev
\Test_User has quit [Quit: e]
xenos1984 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
xenos1984 has joined #osdev
lentement has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Matt|home has joined #osdev
M_D_K has joined #osdev
gareppa has joined #osdev
xenos1984 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
xenos1984 has joined #osdev
Arthuria has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Guest684531))]
Arthuria has joined #osdev
gog is now known as gagaist
\Test_User has joined #osdev
kof123 has joined #osdev
Arthuria has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<sortie>
Anyway so I ended up in another music video
<sortie>
I swear I used to do osdev
<sortie>
Apparently the tabloid news also said I was the highlight of the local eurovision but even I couldn't save the show
<sortie>
osdev gets a lot more fun when you figure out there's a level beyond self-hosting where you just hack straight into reality
<kof123>
explain :) you mean no longer worried about "infrastructure" and can do <whatever it is you were trying to do in the first place> ?
<heat_>
zid, btw your guy sounds polish, definitely not portuguese
<sortie>
heat_: What are you trying to underscore?
heat_ is now known as _Heat
_Heat has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
heat has joined #osdev
<heat>
sortie, i tried changing to _Heat but it crashed hexchat
<heat>
i don't know what this might mean
<heat>
except that maybe WG14 is out to get me
<sortie>
All your reserved namespace is belong to me
<heat>
posix_sortie
<sortie>
It's why I am __builtin_sortie
<heat>
or maybe posix::sortie (which is also reserved!)
<sortie>
#include <posix>
<heat>
zid, anyway if you want to know how portogoose people's england sounds like, just queue up a jose mourinho 10 hour compilation
<heat>
that guy sounds kind of like pashabiceps
<acidx>
do porchofgeese people also eat vowels when speaking english?
<heat>
can you give me an example
<kof123>
i think strict self-hosting implies "you" invented your own language independently [*], and whatever licensing you want since you control the terms since you wrote the code, and you control the specification and implementation, , etc. on top of building itself. so i think that is non-existent [*] or, took something existing; it is a separate issue where ideas came from
<kof123>
so strictly, always a lie, nothing comes out of nothing
<acidx>
like the differences between how brazilians and portuguese people pronounce the same words. it seems like portuguese people kinda jump over vowels, whereas brazilians pronounce every single one of them.
<acidx>
(also, most brazilians, when pronouncing english, will add vowels where there are none. we seem to love vowels for some reason.)
<nikolapdp>
different phonotactics between english and brazilian portuguese
<nikolapdp>
same with italians that add a schwa in consonant clusters
<nikolapdp>
welcome back to #langdev channel lol
<heat>
acidx, example plox
<heat>
of vowel eating
<heat>
portuguese english kinda tends to do "if -> ife"
<heat>
where brazillian english tends to go "if -> ifi"
<kof123>
nikolapdp: i thought it was settled on phoenicia
<heat>
where english/murican people go "if"
<acidx>
heat: like, "ele foi embora" -- in pt_PT, you'd probably pronounce "ele" as "el". in pt_BR, you'd pronounce it as "êle".
<heat>
ah yes
<nikolapdp>
kof123 what was
<kof123>
"language"
<kof123>
what is there to discuss :D
<nikolapdp>
lol
<kof123>
all from phoenix lol
<heat>
i mean.... i can't really think of that being common in portuguese english
vexmane has joined #osdev
<acidx>
another thing in pt_BR english: adding a "chi" sound where there's a "t" at the end of a word. "let" -> "letchi" or something
<heat>
pronouncing certain consonants weirdly (t, r, d, ...) is pretty common, elongating words that end in consonants with e is also common
kof123 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
vexmane_ has joined #osdev
<heat>
like true shit en_PT goes "let -> lete"
<acidx>
ah, yeah, using the hard R sound when the R begins the word as if it's portuguese is also common.
<nikolapdp>
you two portugese speakers can understand each other right
<acidx>
confuses the hell out of native speakers lol
vexmane has quit [Client Quit]
<heat>
yes usually
<acidx>
might take a few seconds to adjust but yeah
<heat>
it probably depends on the speed and where in brazil you're from
<heat>
if i'm speaking with a !portuguese person i'll immediately slow down a lot
<heat>
even if brazillian
<nikolapdp>
i think that's an instinctive thing
<nikolapdp>
you automatically slow down when you think someone isn't going to understand you perfectly
<heat>
right
<heat>
but french and spanish people come here and don't want to change an inch
<acidx>
I live in the US and people rarely know I'm not a native speaker -- but some, when they learn I'm brazilian, will slow down, even though I was keeping up with the conversation before they learned that fact lol
<nikolapdp>
unless you're an american, then you just speak english louder
<heat>
(and english)
<heat>
nikolapdp, motherfucker that's every "traditional western country"
<heat>
english people speak english, spaniards speak spanish, french speak baggette
<heat>
and they don't change even when visiting other countries
<heat>
some sort of cultural subjugation
<nikolapdp>
yeah those pricks
<heat>
and ofc a humble portugoose tries to understand them and/or speak their language
<heat>
if you go to spain and speak portuguese, they'll look at you amazingly confused
<nikolapdp>
you mean everyone that's not spanish, english (american), french or german
<acidx>
I saw a video of some guy going around Italy speaking Latin, asking for directions. some people ended up understanding him lmao
kof123 has joined #osdev
<heat>
germans, nordic people, netherlands ppl tend to at least switch to english
<nikolapdp>
acidx: is that Luke Ranieri by any chance lol
<acidx>
nikolapdp: I don't remember, it's been a while
<heat>
yeah i've seen that vid too
<acidx>
heat: a friend living in NL was trying to learn Dutch but said it was impossible because people would always switch to English and never let him practice lol
<nikolapdp>
heat: yeah, oh yeah that's a common meme
<nikolapdp>
sorry not heat, acidx
<nikolapdp>
lol
CutieMelo has joined #osdev
<heat>
acidx, also i want to mention that people around lisbon (myself included) are adamant they have *no* accent
<heat>
which is absolutely nuts
<nikolapdp>
you mean no accent when speaking portugese
<nikolapdp>
or english
<heat>
portuguese
<kof123>
^^^ is there such a thing as "no accent" :D
<heat>
nope
<nikolapdp>
it's when you speak the objectively correct dialect of the language obviously
<nortti>
it's when you have no pitch or emphasis differences between syllables
<nikolapdp>
i mean everyone probably thinks they speak without an eaccent to be fair
<acidx>
heat: lol, same thing from people from são paulo, which is so stupid it's a trope in comedy shows
<bslsk05>
'Os LISBOETAS têm SOTAQUE?' by Portuguese With Leo (00:14:57)
vexmane_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<heat>
geist, do you speak COWBOY
<heat>
how many yeehaws per sentence
pretty_dumm_guy has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.5]
<heat>
how many alamo references per paragraph
<geist>
i probably speak cowboy better than i think i do, but i've been out of texas for about half my life now
<nortti>
though maybe they would if they are speaking formal finnish? don't think there's that many clear phonological differences between common helsinkian pronunciation of the standard and the standard finnish
<Ermine>
std::heat
<nikolapdp>
nortti there is actually a defined standard pronunciation of serbian, which isn't the one from belgrade
<nortti>
heh
<nikolapdp>
and when they use it on tv, people think they are wrong lol
<nikolapdp>
it's kind of a half artificial mix between a couple dialects from western serbia
<nortti>
the finnish spoken standard is a mix of since-16th-century written standard and most dialects
<heat>
Ermine, i have a strong accent when speaking C++
<nortti>
it does not have a nailed-down pronunciation officially, I think, but there essentially is one based on finnish orthography and the majority speakers' phonological processes
<nikolapdp>
nortti serbian was standardized pretty recently (19th) century, and the standard has done a pretty good job of following coloquial serbian, so it's pretty close to how people actually speak, other than some subtle pronunciation stuf
Gurkenglas has joined #osdev
<geist>
i think i mostly speak nerd now
<nikolapdp>
don't we all geist
<geist>
been around too many googlers for too long, i tend to use fancy words that i dont realize is fancy for most folks
<heat>
mom, send patchen
<nikolapdp>
lol like what
<heat>
your stew is PESSIMAL
<nikolapdp>
lol
<geist>
well, yeah things like saying optimal, or indeed, or whatnot
<geist>
like i might literally sneak out something like that while say ordering a coffee
<geist>
then i am like guh i sound like a nerd
<heat>
people at google speak like 16th century writers
<geist>
kiiinda
<heat>
send the patchen forthwith!
<geist>
i have started to pick up whilst too, but that's because i talk to some australian coworkers
<geist>
bot like for example i might say 'i have observed' instead of 'i saw'
<nikolapdp>
i wonder if my english is very nerdlike
<acidx>
australian english is fun. I like the way they just casually swear like it's nothing
<nikolapdp>
geist: lol very whitepaper-y
<geist>
yah exactly
<nortti>
nikolapdp: finnish is quite different from that. basically, there is the standard form that differs vocabularywise, grammatically, and often also phonologically from what people speak in the everyday. the finnish orthography, sticking quite strongly to one letter = one phoneme (though there's always exceptions with like morphophonetic spellings and such), writes this standard form, and when you're speaking
<nortti>
it aloud, you follow the phonemes implied by the spelling
<geist>
i love to listen to finnish, since it's so generally germanic sounding but is oehterwise complete nonsense to me
<geist>
like it uses mostly germanic sounding consonants that make it sound like you should be able to understand it
<nikolapdp>
nortti: well since the serbian standard is basically colloqial, serbian spelling is basically perfectly phonetic
<geist>
but absolutely none of the standard word roots or anything like that line up at all with anything i recognize
<nikolapdp>
which is neat
<geist>
so it sounds a lot like you're having a seizure
<nortti>
nikolapdp: does that mean that speakers with different accents also spell differently?
<nikolapdp>
that's why i never got spelling bees as a kid watching american cartoons
<nikolapdp>
nortti: basically yeah
<kof123>
> heh nortti wins lion chat
<nortti>
nikolapdp: neat
<nikolapdp>
dialectal varietions are recognized by the standard
<nortti>
in finnish you can do that, but it has strong informal connotation
<nortti>
I do that in most contexts, but I am pushing it farther than most consider normal
<nikolapdp>
well when you're writing official documents, you're expected to follow a particular standard dialect
<nortti>
mmh
kof123 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<nikolapdp>
but in every day use, on tv, or whatever it's all accepted
<geist>
acidx: whats funny is once i started talking regularly with australians, and the few times i've been in sydney most people i talked to i think were speaking more of a proper australian
<geist>
a higher class version i guess. and it sounds much different from Crocodile Dundee
<nikolapdp>
you mean 5% fewer swears :p
<geist>
well, you kid, but actually was pretty swear free
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<geist>
but if you watch the news on tv there and they interview folks living out in the bush it's what you expect
<bslsk05>
'Aussiest. Interview. Ever. What a legend!' by TODAY (00:02:12)
<nikolapdp>
whacky
<nortti>
nikolapdp: an example of the differences between standard vs what one speaks actually, 'Did you go to the store today?' in standard is "Kävitkö sinä kaupassa tänään?" [ˈkæʋitkø̞ ˈsinæ ˈkɑupɑsːɑ ˈtænæːn] while what I'd say myself is "Kävikkö nää kaupas tännää?" [ˈkæʋikːø̞ ˈnæː ˈkɑupɑs ˈtænːæ̃ː], and this is a fairly tame example even as the grammar stays the same
<nikolapdp>
nortti: yeah but there are also noticable sound changes
<nikolapdp>
like the loss of t and s
<nikolapdp>
fun fact, we learn sound changes so we can properly decline nouns in serbian :)
<bslsk05>
'Limmy's Show: Dee Dee: Yoker' by Limmy (00:06:02)
<nortti>
guess the noun declination differs between dialects?
<nikolapdp>
eh somewhat
<nikolapdp>
the most drastic difference is between the standard which has 7 and the southern which has like 2
<nortti>
huh
<nikolapdp>
but most other dialects are very close to standard
kof526 has joined #osdev
<nikolapdp>
the bigger differences are in vocabulary and accentuation/pronunciation
<nortti>
guess there's no cases where the dialects all agree but the standard disagrees?
<nikolapdp>
not that i know of i think
ramenu__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<nortti>
finnish has pretty major ones with possession marking and 1p.pl verb forms
jack_rabbit has joined #osdev
<nikolapdp>
yeah that would make sense if the standard is basically the same since 16th century
<nortti>
the thing is, it isn't. there was a big shift in the 18th century where it moved away from the dialects in its own direction, and then another in the 19th century where eastern dialects were also incorporated
<nikolapdp>
oh that's odd
<nikolapdp>
it basically has a life of its own
<nortti>
aye
<nortti>
e.g. my usage of -s instead of -ssa was normal in 17th century texts, but is no longer acceptable (since "fuller" forms started to be preferred)
<nortti>
(-sa and -ssa also exist in dialects, so they did not get that out of thin air, but aiui there's no dialect where -ssa is exclusively used)
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<nikolapdp>
reminds me of before serbian was standardized
<nikolapdp>
all written texts were in a dialect that was derived from church-slavonic (which was obviously influenced by the colloqial serbian9
<nikolapdp>
so it was actually quite different
<nikolapdp>
and also had a life of its own
<nortti>
oh, that's interesting. did ppl conceptualize it as being serbian?
<nikolapdp>
not quite sure
<nikolapdp>
difficult to guage because we were under ottoman rule, so very few were literate
<nortti>
mm
<nikolapdp>
but eventually, it was replaced by the current standard, with the serbian revolution, etc
<nortti>
oh and another big change in the 19th century is that grammatical constructs that were loaned from swedish were done away with a lot, e.g. old literary finnish sometimes used definite and indefinite article, marked agents on passives, used adposition phrases a lot more than spoken finnish
<nikolapdp>
so the standard took on more of swedish influences than the colloqiual dialects?
<nortti>
the swedish influence was there from the start, and if anything was reduced over time
heat_ has joined #osdev
<nikolapdp>
i get that, i am just asking if it influenced the standard more than the colloqiual language
<nortti>
hm
heat has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<nortti>
I'd say the standard is more influenced by swedish than the old dialects in most areas, much less influenced by swedish than dialects in e.g. southern ostrobothnia or uusimaa, and a bit more influenced by swedish than my personal idiolect
<nikolapdp>
so it's kind of all over the place
<nortti>
yeah
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<nikolapdp>
funnily enough, we didn't take on basically any grammatical influences from turkish over the centuries
<nikolapdp>
we did get a log of words though, most of which have been abandoned by now
<nikolapdp>
but some still prevail
<nortti>
same in hungarian from what I understand
<nikolapdp>
hungarian and turkish?
<nortti>
yeah
<nikolapdp>
they weren't under turks for that long
<nikolapdp>
wonder how much they were influenced
<geist>
so the question is since we're conversing in english, and thus have selected for the very narrow set of folks from various cultures that a) know english and b) hypothetically want to osdev and c) use irc
<geist>
how did these people learn english?
<nikolapdp>
youtube/reading stuff on the internet
<geist>
really? not from school or whatnot?
<nikolapdp>
i was not good at english at school
<nikolapdp>
before being chronically online lol
<nikolapdp>
and then i became one of the best
<nortti>
very basics (not including pronunciation) from mucking around with qbasic, then at school from 3rd grade
<nikolapdp>
nortti how old are you
<geist>
can you speak it very well, or mostly understand and type
* kof526
keks at nikolapdp (possible frog sound)
<nikolapdp>
i can speak it but with a clear accent, i understand very well and i type fine i guess lol
<nortti>
in later grades I started more reading/listening to stuff in english directly myself, lemme try and see wherearound that would havve been
<geist>
being that english has somewhat of a different pronounciation than what you type out i can understand someone could read/write it well but not the others
<nikolapdp>
kof526: lol
<nikolapdp>
geist: what's funny, i pronounce it better in my head than when i am actually trying to speak
<nortti>
nikolapdp: I'm 26
<nikolapdp>
guess i need more practice
<nikolapdp>
nortti: so we aren't that far off
<nikolapdp>
thought you would've been older and that was why you learned in school
<geist>
yah i always wonder when folks that learn english as second (or third or whatnot) language how much of it comes from school and how much is just regular interaction with media or whatnot
<nikolapdp>
for me it was basically all from media, only the very basics at school
<nortti>
okay looks like my first esolangs.org edits are from late 2008, so already by 5th grade I was engaging in stuff in english myself directly. that's earlier than I expected tbh
<geist>
since being 'murican i am not really required to learn any other language i honestly dont really know how people do it
<nikolapdp>
it also helps that english is basically everywhere lol
<nikolapdp>
while small languages like serbian basically never have proper translations for stuff like software for example
<nortti>
after peruskoulu ('basic school', years 1 to 9) I went to an IB high school, where the teaching was mostly in english. I'd been pretty good at reading, typing and listening before that, but producing speech was a bit hard for me still at that point
<geist>
ah yeah immersive english would do it
<nikolapdp>
is that like an international school or something like that
<nikolapdp>
we don't really have that here, maybe like one or two in the whole country
<nortti>
international baccalaureate program, yeah
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<nikolapdp>
that would indeed help lol
<nortti>
funnily enough it did not really have much effect on my pronunciation. that's only really improved in the last few years as I've spoken with my partner (whom german but speaks english to-me pretty near nativel level) in english
<geist>
yah especially if they correct you and hit you on the head with a newspaper
<nortti>
:D:
<nikolapdp>
heh that would also help
<nortti>
< nikolapdp> it also helps that english is basically everywhere lol < nikolapdp> while small languages like serbian basically never have proper translations for stuff like software for example ← finnish gets full-coverage (I wouldn't always call them "proper" from quality perspective) translations on most big software, not almost never on video games interestingly
<nortti>
actually, does serbia do overdubbing or subtitles for foreign movies?
<nikolapdp>
dubbing for children's stuff, subtitles for the rest
<nortti>
yeah, same here
<nikolapdp>
guess it's cheaper
<nikolapdp>
and much faster
<nikolapdp>
thought even the subtitles are sometimes of questionable quality
<nikolapdp>
*though
<nortti>
< geist> since being 'murican i am not really required to learn any other language i honestly dont really know how people do it ← as far as I understand it's a compulsory subject (in most states?) at some point in schooling. what does that involve?
<geist>
oh you have to take a year or two of something
<geist>
but that's not really enough to get you to having a conversation level
<nortti>
at what point of your schooling is that?
<geist>
usually spanish or french or whatnot, though spanish is the big one
<nikolapdp>
we have a second language throught our schooling
<geist>
oh say 8th or 9th grade
<geist>
early high school
<nortti>
yeah that's quite late
<geist>
exactly
<nikolapdp>
and a third language for a few years less
<nortti>
when I did schooling it was english on 3rd grade an swedish on 7th
<nortti>
I think it's 2nd and like 5th nowadays, because 7th grade was found to be just too late
<geist>
you can generally take more if you want. my niece is quite good at spanish just from what she learned in high school
<nikolapdp>
schools are usually very bad at teaching languages
<geist>
but of course if you dont use it you lose it
<nortti>
(you can also take fourth language, but english and "the other national" are compulsory)
<nikolapdp>
you really need to immerse to learn a language
<kof526>
nikolapdp kek is totally possible for frog Brekekekex Koax Koax. The Frogs Chorus in Aristophanes Frogs: competing with Dionysus. Dionysus is rowing across the lake of the Underworld to a steady rhythm hekat/hecate and a form of ptah in particular
<kof526>
yes, immerse lol
heat_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
heat_ has joined #osdev
<nortti>
I'd say it depends on what your goal for the language is. to be able to converse in it, sure, but e.g. if you only care about reading a language you don't need to do immersion (and rather, you should focus on, well, reading)
<geist>
also propbably depends on the language too, how close the written version is to the spoken version
<geist>
obviously things like chinese where the written and spoken are from other planets
<geist>
i always thought it'd be interesting to learn ASL
<nortti>
oh that's an angle I didn't even consider. I was more thinking of how like, for conversation you need to be able to quickly construct grammar which you don't need for reading
<nikolapdp>
kof526 interesting
<nikolapdp>
well when i am learning language, i want to speak it
<nortti>
also, as someone who did 3 years of mandarin, I'd say modern mandarin spelling is fairly strongly connected with the spoken form
<nikolapdp>
is that the simplified spelling lol
<geist>
nortti: whoa really?
<geist>
i always assumed they were just unconnected, and you simply memorized that X == Y
<nortti>
nikolapdp: both simplified and traditional, the main difference is that simplified uses informal forms generally as base and merges some distinctions that don't exist in modern standard mandarin
<geist>
with some logic to the way the pictograms are constructed
zetef has joined #osdev
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<nikolapdp>
geist they aren't really pictograms
<nikolapdp>
it's actually quite a complex system
<geist>
well, okay TIL
<nortti>
geist: the most common way a han character is constructed is radical (vague suggestion of meaning) + phonetic (another character that is read similarly)
<nikolapdp>
wait let me find a nice explanation i read
<geist>
iiiinteresting
<geist>
so it's actually expected that you can basically guess/pronounce something you haven't seen before?
<geist>
once you grok the structure and have enough of the base stuff learned?
<netbsduser`>
chairman mao wanted to abolish the han characters in favour of a latin alphabet but he was made to compromise so simplified them instead, as a planned first step on the way to their abolition
<nortti>
geist: for the common vocab no, but for rarer characters you can often have a pretty good guess
<geist>
oh interesting, thanks
<nikolapdp>
as you can see, it's quite complex lol
<geist>
yah i figure you probably just basically internalize the common vocab and then after that the rest starts to click better
ramenu has joined #osdev
<nortti>
e.g. I know that 正 'normal' is pronounced zhèng so I can make a fair guess 症 'illness' is pronounced similar (and in this case it happens to indeed be read zhèng as well)
<nikolapdp>
with the same tone?
<nortti>
in this case, aye
<geist>
and i figure it's at the end of the day about as complicated as any other lanugage. there was some thing i read somewhere that basically states that most languages are about as complex as any other, based on the premise that they each expand to fill the amount of brain power the average human has
zetef_ has joined #osdev
<nortti>
but often you have more variance. 很 'very' is hěn, while 恨 'to hate' is hèn
<geist>
ie, the cpu/ram is about the same size and software grows bloat to fill the space
<nikolapdp>
a language, sure, writing systems though, definitely not all the same complexity
<nortti>
and 跟 'with' is gēn
<nikolapdp>
nortti: so even the phonetic part doesn't tell the whole story in that case
<nortti>
aye
<nikolapdp>
annoying
<nortti>
I think the information you get from the phonetic complement is "this character sounded almost like that character in middle chinese"
zetef has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<geist>
maybe that's based on the idea that writing systems are basically add-on optional DLC that humans developed later, after the hardware was laid down
<geist>
since you dont really need it to live with your tribe and trade with others
<nikolapdp>
i mean i can tell you that ancient greek, latin, serbian, etc have almost trivial writing systems compared to the monstrosity that is the chinese writing system
<geist>
that in itself is i guess a fascinating trip into history: why did it develop that way
<netbsduser`>
nikolapdp: this is why mao was so keen on replacing it
<geist>
was there just an A/B choice somewhere, or was it more of a 'government mandated it' sort of thing
<nikolapdp>
how did what develop geist, chinese?
<geist>
the written version
heat__ has joined #osdev
<geist>
why did they go with this sort of writing system versus any other
<nikolapdp>
i think there was a lot of mandating for chinese actually
heat_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
gareppa has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5]
<geist>
yah that's maybe what i'm thinking, some sort of long unbroken strong government maintaining continuity over thousands of years
<nikolapdp>
i think if you read traditional chinese, you can read texts centuries old with little effor
<nortti>
not necessarily
<nikolapdp>
even though the language itself is drastically different
<nikolapdp>
nortti how far off am i here
<netbsduser`>
if one looks at e.g. the latin alphabet, that's a derivation ultimately from egyptian hieroglyphs that passed through several peoples, each improving it
<nortti>
classical chinese and modern mandarin have very different grammar
<geist>
iirc the grammar is fairly close to english right? ie, SVO style sentences
<nikolapdp>
not really
<nortti>
in modern mandarin, yeah, ish
<nortti>
classical chinese was SOV tho
<netbsduser`>
the phoenicians made away with the system of one-character-per-word in favour of a character representing a consonant, and then the greeks added vowels to it, making it an ideal alphabet
<nikolapdp>
like latin was SOV, but modern romance languages are SVO
<nortti>
plus there's a fair bit of classical chinese vocab that's fallen out of use nowadays – funnily enough you'd probably be able to recognize it better if you knew japanese, because japanese loaned those characters for their native words for the meaning
<nikolapdp>
that is funny
<nortti>
netbsduser`: that's not quite true. egyptian hieroglyphs also mostly write consonants, though there are more possibile ways to represent the same consonant sequence
<nikolapdp>
hieroglyphs were a whole another beast
<nikolapdp>
in some ways, similar to chinees
<nortti>
honestly I'd say they're quite different
vexmane has joined #osdev
<nikolapdp>
i said in some ways :)
<nortti>
hieroglyphs lack the entire character composition structure of han characters, and there are a lot of characters that are not pronounced
pretty_dumm_guy has joined #osdev
<nortti>
meanwhile han characters tend to be pretty closely one character to one syllable
<kof526>
what little i know of "mainstream" as well as "other sources" is noone knows how the hieroglyphs were pronounced re: "vowels"
<nikolapdp>
some things are known, but vowels are the least known
<nikolapdp>
all we know comes through other languages so we don't know exact details
<bslsk05>
en.wiktionary.org: twt-ꜥnḫ-jmn - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
<netbsduser`>
nortti: i think we can more easily forgive the hieroglyphs that have been dead for millenia
<nikolapdp>
lol it actually copied correctly
<netbsduser`>
and out of them came more effective writing systems
<nortti>
netbsduser`: forgive?
<nikolapdp>
gagaist hello
<netbsduser`>
nortti: for being an inadequate writing system
<gagaist>
hi
<nortti>
netbsduser`: doesn't seem inadequate to me – had a longer run than any currently used writing system
<nikolapdp>
are you a geist imposter gagaist
<gagaist>
yes
<nikolapdp>
dang
<gagaist>
you can tell because the quality of my code is much worse
<nikolapdp>
kek fair enough
<netbsduser`>
nortti, if it were so adequate, then pharaonic egypt would've had a literacy rate of greater than ~1%
<nortti>
that is presuming the goal for them was widespread literacy, which, uh, it was not
<nikolapdp>
i mean literacy was always low until a couple centuries ago
<nikolapdp>
yeah exactly
<kof526>
seeing they will not see , hearing they will not hear ^^^ +nortti
<netbsduser`>
we are judging by more modern, enlightened standards though
<kof526>
*not hear the kek frog lol "I AM THE RESURRECTION" -- one form of the frog lol
<nikolapdp>
also demotic was even simpler and basically equivalent to modern cursive
<nikolapdp>
very widespread among scribes
<nikolapdp>
but still unknown by the general population
<nortti>
funnily enough that simplification makes it much harder to read
<nikolapdp>
like that meme about russian cursive right
<nortti>
kof526: I could have sworn one of the egyptologists I follow on tumblr had made a good longpost about vowels in egyptian, but I can't find it if that's the case
<geist>
sysstat is pretty neat though you can watch it dynamically grow and shrink, or even when fixed size like in 1.5 where it's allocating the buffers to
<geist>
seems to track per FS and then metadata vs data
<heat>
oh cool
<geist>
BSD's sysstat is always nice. lets you see the VM do its thing
<nikolapdp>
neat
<heat>
at what point does netbsd become too BLOATED for your vax?
<geist>
hmm, good question. i picked 1.5 specifically because it was about the right size
<heat>
oh wow you don't have stat(1)
<geist>
kinda looked at where the development went, and i assumed 2.0 was where it starts to get more heavyweight, since that's when SMP came along
<bslsk05>
www.netbsd.org: The History of the NetBSD Project
<nikolapdp>
are there any multiprocessor vax machines
<heat>
it'd be interesting to see where perf kicks the bucket
<heat>
also netbsd 1.6 predates me
<nikolapdp>
kek
<heat>
i'm only older than 1.6.1
<geist>
keep in mind this vax is even slow for the time. this is late 80s, it was already getting its ass handed to it by the newer risc machines
<nikolapdp>
heh
<geist>
it's a microvax so some number of times slower than the final large ones with a lot more cache
<geist>
about 3 or 4 VUPs iirc. so think of it as about a 386sx or so
<nikolapdp>
1.4.2 is the youngest that's older than e
<nikolapdp>
me
<nortti>
1.2.1 for me
<geist>
anyway yes there were SMP vaxen
<geist>
up to i think 4 way, though i dont think those ever showed up in workstation/desktop form
<heat>
smpen vaxen
<nikolapdp>
VAXEN
<geist>
the living computer museum is still running a vax 7000 4 way that you can log into
<geist>
it's far faster than this one. something like 25-35 vups i think?
<heat>
what's a VUP?
<geist>
oh and 7000s went up to 3.5GB
<nortti>
what's the last half a gig, I/O space?
<geist>
yah
<geist>
i dunno how they handled the transition past 512MB. because the first version of vax i know about there's a P0 address space that is 512MB, and is simply memory
<nikolar>
that must've been a monster of a machine then
<geist>
like, physically mapped without the need of the MMU. some other arches do that, MIPS, SH i know of
<nortti>
P0?
<geist>
yeah it's hard to explain, the way the virtual aspace on vax is laid out is a combination of MMU and hard codedness
<nortti>
huh. guess it simplifies some parts of MMU to not support arbitrary uncached mappings I guess
<geist>
yah i think for something like a MIPS or a SH where you have the manual TLB fill exceptions, it makes sense to have a place to run the TLB miss handler without recursing
<geist>
basically point your exception vectors at the cached but directly mapped space and then you can run at least some code there
<geist>
anyway that strategy on that mips page is pretty common, i've seen that in other systems
<geist>
heat: and yeah VUPs is just relative to the original vax 11/780
<geist>
VAX uses page tables, though not radix trees like x86
<nortti>
it's just linear, right?
<geist>
but each of those segments (P0, P1, S0) has their own table
Arthuria has joined #osdev
<nikolapdp>
seems reminiscent to pdp11
<geist>
yes, and the P0, P1 tables have a length field (P1 grows down) and sit inside S0 space, so it ends up being a two level page table
zetef has quit [Remote host closed the connection]