<bslsk05>
j-novel.club: Ascendance of a Bookworm (Light Novel) | J-Novel Club
<zid>
lmk when you're up to date so we can compare ntoes
<adder>
I wish I had the time to read fiction. :)
<zid>
You're on irc, ofc you do
<adder>
For educational purposes!
<zid>
and presumably you sleep sometimes, cut that right out
<adder>
Ah, libgen hasn't got it.
<adder>
How much is all?
<zid>
a gig
<adder>
A gig?
<adder>
It says 699.
<zid>
it's like, a thousand megs
<adder>
No, I mean how much I need to pay to read it.;
<zid>
oh, you click the link I sent you, realistically
<zid>
fall in love, then buy hard copies
<adder>
Is the Preview the whole thing?
<zid>
the what
<zid>
I sent you a message
<zid>
it'll be the red flashy thing, or the purple thing, depending on client
<zid>
or maybe bold yellow?
<zid>
I forget what irssi does for privmsg
<adder>
Tiny.
<adder>
Red. :)
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<zid>
Redda.
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<adder>
What do I read to learn how to write a kernel? Just show it to me, I don't care if it's 10k pages.
<adder>
I went through the MINIX book previously, so I have some idea.
<adder>
Well, having an idea is a wild overstatement. But I did go through the book. :)
<adder>
zid: ^
<zid>
I've never read a technical book.
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<adder>
I'm not sure how I'd otherwise learn.
<adder>
There's not enough substance in my head to just come up with a kernel.
<zid>
fix that then?
<zid>
Do some embedded stuff
<adder>
Why embedded?
<zid>
or at least systems
<zid>
break you out of your shell of relying on something telling you what and how to do things
<zid>
and learn all the tools you'll need
<zid>
like, a gameboy game is just a very shitty kernel
<zid>
it's driven off interrupts and does some stuff, then goes back to sleep
<zid>
Then maybe write an allocator in userspace with mmap as a backend.
<zid>
Then write a filesystem in memory
<zid>
Then write..
<zid>
Like, you could read a unix book, then rewrite unix, which might be fun
<zid>
but if you want to write *your* OS, you need to have *your* ideas on how the apis should work etc
<adder>
I want to do a minix-like clone.
<zid>
and it's hard to have any of your own feelings unless you've written similar code before
<zid>
"I hate how x does y, I'd do it like z"
<zid>
is how you write an OS
<adder>
Well I need to figure out how to write an os at all first. :)
<zid>
right, so what's stopping you?
<adder>
Then I can reason about what needs changed.
<zid>
You can't write bare metal anything at all?
<zid>
You could, but only after someone else has given you the toolchain?
<zid>
You can, but you don't know how to run it?
<adder>
No, I've only done general purpose programming. The most challenging to me was a virtual machine.
<zid>
So then what's stopping you? What wall are you seeing in front of you
<zid>
to just get started
<zid>
bear in mind what you write doesn't have to be the best thing you *could* write, or even your 'minix clone', what about something that booted and printed hello world in an infinite loop?
<adder>
Yes, that sounds like a good start.
<zid>
If you're not capable of that yet, you now have a *much* more realistic goal.
<zid>
It's very hard to know what you don't know, if you've not messed with something at least tangentially related to the thing you wanna do
<zid>
"I wanna design a car engine", "Great, petrol or diesel?" "Uhh, what's the difference?" <-- This person is not ready.
<adder>
lol
<zid>
think of it like learning a language imo, you don't *start* by writing fantasy novels
<zid>
You start by reading children's books.
<zid>
or writing crappy essays about cheese
<adder>
I think I have what it takes for a hello world, definitely, and then I'd be gradually chipping away at it and stockpiling features.
<zid>
none of it is the *goal* of writing a fantasy novel
<zid>
but it's all required to have been something you did
<adder>
I did not know how to write a virtual machine either, but I learned. :)
<zid>
and some shitty int method = packet->type; switch(method) case 0: udp_packet(packet); break; case 1: tcp_packet(packet); break; .. } dispatcher for a totally unrelated program or whatever, is what might have given you the skills to have done so
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<zid>
just.. write lots of code,
<zid>
and anything you wanna do is next to something you already did and you have a good idea how it will go already before you start
<adder>
Yep.
<adder>
I'll figure out tomorrow (today?) how to boot it and print a message, after I get some sleep.
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<kazinsal>
ssh troy@jarvan
<kazinsal>
oops, you're not my terminal
<sortie>
troy@jarvan ~ $
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<vdamewood>
passowrd:
<vdamewood>
dammit
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<kazinsal>
> mkfs.ext2: Input/output error while writing out and closing file system
<kazinsal>
well, this floppy's toast.
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<vdamewood>
the floppy... or the drive?
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<nikolapdp>
KERNAL
<zid>
nercol
<zid>
how honzuki niko
<nikolapdp>
busy
<zid>
always an excuse eh
<nikolapdp>
i was out the whole day so you know
<zid>
see
<zid>
nikolapdp if you're struggling with any of the words, I can help
<nikolapdp>
i know words zid
<zid>
cat, dog, etc
<nikolapdp>
there are words outside computers, wow
<zid>
There are words INSIDE the computer too!?
<nikolapdp>
the words you're reading right now are in your computer somewhere
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<zid>
I thought I was reading them off my ethernet card's buffer
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<zid>
and it was doing like, morse code
<nikolapdp>
your ethernet card is still in your computer so still true
<zid>
it isn't my computer though, that's the confusion
<nikolapdp>
oh are you signaling pci manually to the card
<zid>
aren't we all?
<nikolapdp>
in a way, guess so
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<heat_>
nikolapdp, kern
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<nikolapdp>
heat_: ILLUMOS
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<geistvax>
ILLUMOS
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<heat_>
drop the farce geistvax
<heat_>
we know ILLUMOS doesn't run on the VAX
<nortti>
yet
<heat_>
btw try #2: does anyone know why v5/v6 UNIX had 514-sized buffers in the buffer cache?
<heat_>
i need to know
<heat_>
i think they're stashing that last word in the buffer for something, but i can't tell and there are no comments
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<geistvax>
hmm, i thought i had a illumos VM at some point
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<heat_>
time to bring out the sparcstation
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<nikolapdp>
heat_ i'll have to disappoint you but as far as i know, illumos is dropping sparc support
<heat_>
Slowly(tm)
<nikolapdp>
yeah
<nikolapdp>
sadly
<heat_>
but i don't care about illumos, solaris or bust
<heat_>
also anything illumos does is slowly
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<nikolapdp>
heat_ so you want to use the proprietary ORACLE OS
<nikolapdp>
shock horror
<heat_>
Sun engineering ethos > GNU & BSD programmer glue sniffing contest
<nikolapdp>
it's not sun anymore though
<heat_>
the sun engineering ethos never dies
<nikolapdp>
through illumos it lives on
<heat_>
no
<nikolapdp>
lol
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<mjg>
we need to start a purity movement
<mjg>
illumos is not real solaris, is it?
<mjg>
i mean they are even dropping sparc
<mjg>
liek FAKE
<nikolapdp>
lol oracle isn't far away from dropping sparc alltogether either
<mjg>
last i played with solaris it required a multicore setup
<mjg>
liek for real
<mjg>
requiring 2 cpus to boot
<mjg>
i wonder how that happened
<zid>
how does one even obtain a sparc
<nortti>
call fujitsu and ask for a quote I guess
<GeDaMo>
Bang two rocks together?
<nikolapdp>
you buy second hand off of ebay
<zid>
fujitsu are still alive!?
<nikolapdp>
yes
<nikolapdp>
making sparc cpus still
<zid>
last fujitsu product I had was a hard drive in the 90s, and a CRT
<nikolapdp>
i think this is the last sparc generation that is going to be made though
<nortti>
I think they're mainly a thing in high-end space
<mjg>
there is a russian sparc
<mjg>
(!)
<nikolapdp>
what do you mean mjg
<zid>
high-end what, posing?
<GeDaMo>
Probably get one on an FPGA
<nikolapdp>
GeDaMo: yeah those exist to
<zid>
I assumed at this point they were like, cobol machines
<nortti>
zid: cost
<zid>
important to some, so still a thing, but not useful
<mjg>
nikolapdp: there is a russian company making sparc
<mjg>
or at least there was
<mjg>
the spec is open
<nikolapdp>
heh nice
<heat_>
Ermine, send sparcen pls
<nikolapdp>
i do want to get a sparc machine though i guess the easiest way to do that is to get an fpga
<nortti>
hm, didn't sun rays use sparc?
<heat_>
$ qemu-system-sparc64
<nortti>
yeah, microsparc IIep
<nortti>
dunno how easy it's to get your own code running there tho
<GeDaMo>
zid: you write emulators, write a Sparc emulator
<nortti>
oh looks like that's a 32-bit only one
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<nikolapdp>
nortti microsparc IIep?
<nortti>
yeah
<Ermine>
heat_: I'd like to
<junon>
How's everyone been? Been a minute since I've been here since the matrix bridge died :')
<nikolapdp>
irc is clearly superior
<junon>
yeah, was just convenient having everything in one spot
<junon>
and had to take a break from osdev stuff to deal with ~life~ for a while.
<zid>
GeDaMo: fast, or good?
<nortti>
no
<GeDaMo>
Cheap
<nikolapdp>
what does good do that fast doesn't zid
<nortti>
accurate emulation, I'd presume
<zid>
nod
<zid>
almost all software doesn't care, but the stuff that does, ho boy
<Cindy>
hi
<nikolapdp>
well sparc is probably too new for software to care about that
<nikolapdp>
hello Cindy
<zid>
It still happens, nikolapdp, suddenly race bugs that have always existed start actually happening
<zid>
and it's a nightmare to debug
<nikolapdp>
yeah that's fair
<zid>
And it's purely annoying, because ofc the race bug is a bug, but you're not allowed to just say "your problem", because this is for like, legacy systems that aren't allowed to break
<nikolapdp>
like with "never break userspace" on the linux sid
<nikolapdp>
side
<nortti>
can recommend the dolphin progress report series if you wanna see what kinda technically-never-correct code you get emulating even a fairly modern target: https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/series%23series-1
<bslsk05>
dolphin-emu.org: Dolphin Emulator - Blog series
<nortti>
also damn, it's soon 10 years of progress reports
<nikolapdp>
that's a lot
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<heat_>
nikolapdp, fyi "dont break userspace" does not /usually/ apply to userspace bugs
<nikolapdp>
heat_ is that true though
<gog>
break me
<nikolapdp>
i guess it depends on how long it's been around
<heat_>
yes, it is true
<nikolapdp>
oh well
<heat_>
as part of the kernel <-> user interface? totally applies
<nikolapdp>
oh yeah duh
<nikolapdp>
gog what a weird way to say hello
<heat_>
if by linux changing scheduling it creates a race condition in your shitty program? nope
<heat_>
gog is looking for hung kernel stacks
<nikolapdp>
yeah obviously
<mjg>
so here is a funny q
<mjg>
if linux was to change the order on which shit runs after fork
<mjg>
and that broke lolprogs
<mjg>
would it upset the L man/
<zid>
what a dirty bastard
<nikolapdp>
define lolprogs
<zid>
m.preg your hung stacks
<heat_>
>the order on which shit runs
<heat_>
which is?
<mjg>
fuck if i know today, probably turbo arbitrary given smp
<heat_>
exactly
<mjg>
there was however a real world program strongly depending on it basck in the day
<mjg>
and it broke with the other order
<nikolapdp>
how do you manage that lol
<mjg>
by being a red hat employee
<nikolapdp>
kek
<zid>
nikolapdp: is your stack hung?
<Griwes>
hyrum's law in practice
<nikolapdp>
zid: not yet
<nikolapdp>
still chugging along
<zid>
nikolapdp: Tried pills?
<heat_>
have i mentioned how the linux ELF loader is turbo crapped
<nikolapdp>
how so
<nikolapdp>
zid: i have not, no
<heat_>
where they never checked the ELF progs for remotely strict ELF spec compliance, so now they're stuck loading all sorts of broken shit
<heat_>
out of order segments, overlapping segments, you name it
<nikolapdp>
oh lol
<mjg>
;d
<mjg>
mon
<heat_>
the last time they changed the ELF loader to disallow it, some random video game broke
<Griwes>
lmao
<nikolapdp>
gross
<Ermine>
microcrap wingarbage goes great lengths to maintain backwards compat, yet it isn't 100%
<mjg>
there is literally nothing worse than proprietiary code
<mjg>
Ermine: microsoft literally patches windows to work around bugs in 3rd party programs
<zid>
It's micro$hit winblows I thought
<nikolapdp>
Ermine: i don't think that's even remotely as high priority now as it used to be
<mjg>
pretty crazy
<heat_>
microcrapper winshit
<zid>
the ecosystem is so fucked it's pointless
<zid>
doesn't matter if you can load a win xp .exe anymore
<nikolapdp>
heh yeah
<heat_>
mjg, that's not unheard of in linox
<Ermine>
mjg: yes, this is what I'm talking about
<heat_>
remember the "check if current->comm[0] == 'X'" thing in DRM?
<mjg>
no
<nikolapdp>
what's that about
<heat_>
or, you know, that open() takes all sorts of random flags because THEY NEVER CHECKED FOR FUCKING VALID FLAGS
<heat_>
oh boy
<nikolapdp>
oh yeah i remember some weird unspecified behaviour for open lfags
<nikolapdp>
was it something with O_TRUNC
<heat_>
there was a line in DRM modesetting code that basically did "if (current->comm[0] == 'X') /* This is Xorg, do something else */"
<heat_>
no
<nikolapdp>
lol
<heat_>
you can literally stick invalid flags in open(), the linux open() won't error out. so they need to be extra careful not to accidentally break people
<bslsk05>
lore.kernel.org: [PATCH] drm/atomic: do not branch based on the value of current->comm[0] - Jason A. Donenfeld
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<nortti>
reminds me of xenix 286 not running on 386 since they used the reserved-in-286 bits of the descriptor tables for their own stuff, and 286 didn't care
<nortti>
but then 386 gave those bits meaning, "whoop"
<nikolapdp>
oh yeah i read that email
<Ermine>
I had issues with Halo CE and Luxor 2 in Win10, so I had to use WinXP VM to play Luxor and Zuma
<zid>
The main thing that annoys me on windows re 'backwards compat' is just that the softwarehas 0
<zid>
they built with msvcrt2024 just because it's the default, and now it doesn't run on xp/7/10 for no reason
<zid>
and I have to hex edit the binaries
<nikolapdp>
lol
<nikolapdp>
i had to use some simulation software at uni, and my friend tried running it on win 10
<nikolapdp>
didn't work
<nikolapdp>
but wine worked perfectly
<zid>
and then they do it on purpose sometimes too, like with dx11 and with nested virt
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<bslsk05>
blog.tmm.cx: The very weird Hewlett Packard FreeDOS option – Interesting things
<nikolapdp>
what drivers does it need anyway, can't it just run through bios
<nortti>
well, for that you first need a system with bios boot supported
<Ermine>
Does freedos support uefi?
<nortti>
I don't think so
<Ermine>
Recent laptops don't have CSM
<nikolapdp>
mine does, it's from 2021/2022 i think
<Ermine>
My doesn't, and it's from 2022 or 2023
<nikolapdp>
interesting
<nikolapdp>
is it a gayming laptop
<Ermine>
no
<nikolapdp>
do desktops still come with csm
<nortti>
I think NUCs dropped that, at least for some boot options
<nortti>
but dunno about ATX boards
<nikolapdp>
well i am probably getting a new pc soon, so we'll see i guess
<Ermine>
Can't say, because my board is ancient enough to be supported by coreboot
<nikolapdp>
heh nice
<Ermine>
and back then everything was shipped with csm
<nortti>
sortie: do I remember correctly that your "new" laptop doesn't support bios boot?
<Ermine>
and win7 was supported
<sortie>
nortti, legacy boot only on external drives
<nikolapdp>
huh weird
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<netbsduser`>
+heat_: if i remember right when they dropped the traditional hashtable of symbols, the affected program was some weird parasite
<netbsduser`>
some kind of DRM for video games
<heat_>
yep, that was also an issue, but on the glibc end
<netbsduser`>
the details of how the symbol table is represented in an executable is the element of the dynamic linker, the compiler, and other tools, never the element of anything to do with a videogame, which should conform itself and use public interfaces like dlsym
<nikolapdp>
and glibc definitely doesn't have the whole don't break the userspace thing
<zid>
it does at least do symbol versioning
<netbsduser`>
i have no sympathy for that weird program which stuck its nose where it should've stayed out
<zid>
which ends up being highly annoying in practice cus you can't link gainst the old symbols without an old glibc
<zid>
but yea, drm breaks, it isn't a target for compatibility
<nikolapdp>
you mean anticheat software a bunch of games depend on lol
<zid>
and nobody is upset about that for a reason
<zid>
If your program relies on the exact byte layout of kernel32.dll I have some unfortunate news about reality
<netbsduser`>
nikolapdp: throw it in the bin, it's worthless
<nikolapdp>
oh i don't care
<nikolapdp>
i don't play multiplayer games generally
<zid>
I need to get some sulphur in my factorio game heat, how
<netbsduser`>
there are a thousand reasons to hate glibc but they did no wrong there
<nikolapdp>
i agree
<nortti>
didn't some anticheat also break on the 12th gen intel CPUs having asymmetric multithreading?
<nortti>
*multicore
<nikolapdp>
oh lol
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<netbsduser`>
they say on Windows some of the "anti cheat" software is now kernel drivers
<nikolapdp>
yeah
<nikolapdp>
it's sniffing other processes and even pci devices
<nikolapdp>
for "suspicious" activities
<zid>
used to be kernel drivers
<zid>
it's incredibly rare now because of forced signing
<nortti>
isn't denuvo signed and allowed by microsoft to run in the kernel?
<nikolapdp>
and the vanguard thing too
<zid>
denuvo has one yea
<zid>
but random individual games used to ship their own kernel drivers and stuff
<zid>
like random capcom titles, sony cd-roms, etc
<nikolapdp>
gross
<CompanionCube>
also that one anticheat driver that got used by malware
<zid>
They got some.. rather bad press for their drm, the press popularized the term "rootkit" because of it.
<zid>
so kernel drivers fell out of fashion, and windows started requiring drivers to be signed, etc
<heat_>
most "good" anti-cheats are still kernel resident
<CompanionCube>
and the other drm that was known to cause issues with cdrom drives
<zid>
yea but they're expensive paid products
<zid>
securom
<zid>
would try to root your cd-drive's firmware
<CompanionCube>
did it?
<zid>
so had the potential for bricks
<CompanionCube>
i was thinking of starforce
<zid>
oh, starforce
<zid>
got them confused
<zid>
starforce is correct yea
<heat_>
denuvo, battleeye, EAC, faceit's AC, valorant's AC are all kernel-resident
<heat_>
VAC is like... the main one that doesn't have a kernel driver
<zid>
and again, are all massive companies using dedicated 'products'
<zid>
they can afford to get drivers signed
<zid>
I don't think you realize what a wild west it was before
<zid>
Like, most people just throw in easycheat and they are done, now
<heat_>
<nikolapdp> and glibc definitely doesn't have the whole don't break the userspace thing
<heat_>
it definitely does?
<zid>
It breaks userspace
<zid>
they 'fixed' memcpy at one point
<heat_>
when did that happen?
<zid>
and broke flash because it was using memcpy instead of memmove
<zid>
so we all used shim .so files
<heat_>
yes, and then they "unfixed it" so memcpy is still memmove
<zid>
so they did do it, got you
<heat_>
there's gnulib code that pokes FILE internals for many libcs
<heat_>
so the binary layout of that shit is defacto frozen
<CompanionCube>
especially since often no one cares to update gnulib?
<heat_>
how would you? its random decoupled code that's standing in the middle of your package's source code, which is also completely decoupled from the system's version (usually)
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<nikolapdp>
zid: are you getting a new pc soon
<zid>
should I be?
<zid>
This one is very nwe
<zid>
It's an AMD RYZEN
<zid>
It's so new half of it doesn't work right
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<nikolapdp>
lol
<CompanionCube>
which ryzen
<zid>
5800x
<CompanionCube>
neat
<nikolapdp>
you were shitposting about it earlier so i wasn't sure if it was just a joke or half serious
<zid>
no I wasn't?
<zid>
I think you have me confused with someone who is not me
<nikolapdp>
lol sure
<zid>
post
<zid>
copy paste, gogo
<zid>
it was you, nortti and ermine and heat
<zid>
not me
<nikolapdp>
lol yeah sure
<zid>
copy paste pls
<nikolapdp>
copy paste waht
<zid>
me talking about new pc
<zid>
or whatever it is you say I said
<nortti>
I refute any allegations of owning a new PC
<zid>
My new PC is actually my friend's oldPC
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<zid>
he buys new HW constantly cus he has an okay job and nothing decent to spend it on
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<zid>
I have to *stop* him from buying me things if we talk about computers
<nikolapdp>
lol
<nikolapdp>
good friend
<zid>
It's a reward for putting him with him
<zid>
He's pretty autistic so he'll just send me a short novel worth of fun facts about trains
<gog>
me too
<adder>
Nice, I wish I had friends.
<nikolapdp>
aren't we all friends here adder
<zid>
no, adder hasn't paid the membership fee
<zid>
he's a guest still
<nikolapdp>
dang
<nikolapdp>
too bad then
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<gog>
i'll pay their fee
<zid>
zidsoft+paypal@gmail.com
<zid>
I'm the treasurer
<zid>
trust me
<gog>
k
<zid>
Fun fact, a playstation 2 is 302mm long, a 4090 is 304mm
<zid>
so if your 4090 won't quite fit, you could always use a ps2, it's smaller