<anon>
Is it possible to install apt or apt-get on kisslinux?
<midfavila>
you can install whatever you can get to compile
<midfavila>
the question is why you would do something like that
<midfavila>
using multiple package managers at once is generally a bad idea
<midfavila>
because it's not hard to get them to step on each other's toes
<midfavila>
and at that point things can get very bad very fast
<sad_plan>
what midfavila said basically. some pacakge managers does however allow to install to a PREFIX, which could solve this issues initially
<sad_plan>
pkgsrc does allows for this
<midfavila>
sure but at that point just use flatpak or something
<sad_plan>
perhaps
<midfavila>
i just can't see why you would want to use apt or something on kiss
<midfavila>
if you really want access to the packages of ubuntu or something that badly, write an awk program to convert packages
<sad_plan>
me neither. although I recall dilyn starting on doing something like this. kiss-apt or w/e he called it.
<anon>
midfavila, "because it's not hard to get them to step on each other's toes" Why does it work like this?
<midfavila>
anon, because different package managers track dependencies in different ways
<midfavila>
if you install gtk3 as a kiss package and then try to install a program that depends on gtk3 via a different package manager that isn't aware of kiss' format, then it probably can't detect gtk3
<sad_plan>
because they would install to same place. and apt might not see that you have foolib already installed, and then overwrite it with its own.
<midfavila>
so it'll try to install gtk3
<midfavila>
and now you have two package managers overwriting each other's files
<midfavila>
extend this to something like a build toolchain or your C library and you start to see why it's a serious problem
<midfavila>
...well, in reality if you tried to install something that depended on gtk3 via a non kiss package manager under a kiss system that already had kiss packages for gtk and friends installed, you would end up overwriting the entire dependency graph
<midfavila>
at least, the entire explicit graph
<midfavila>
there's also the possibility that other packages just won't work as you might expect because of implicit dependencies
<midfavila>
long story short, just don't mix and match package managers
<midfavila>
if you do everyone on the internet will gather around you in a big circle, point, and laugh in perfect unison
<midfavila>
of course, there are exceptions when it comes to things like bedrock, snap, flatpak, appimage, whateverthefuck, but i don't care about those because they're not relevant to the conversation, so don't @ me about them, #kisslinux
<anon>
In kiss when installing each program will have to suffer?
<midfavila>
not really
<midfavila>
i mean, it depends on what you install - if you try to package something that has a billion dependencies or something that has a complicated build process, then yeah it'll be a pain, but that's going to be true of any system
<anon>
is virtualbox easy to install?
<sad_plan>
no
<midfavila>
i don't use it, but if source code isn't available, it won't be possible to use
<midfavila>
i doubt oracle would provide musl binaries
<sad_plan>
it has tons of deps, and would also require you to build their kernel module aswell..
<midfavila>
if the source code is available and it's portable then it'll at least be possible to use
<anon>
is telegram-desktop easy to install?
<sad_plan>
you would be better of using kvm
<midfavila>
^
<midfavila>
kvm+qemu or bochs
<sad_plan>
what about bhyve? or is it just for bsd?
<sad_plan>
no telegram on kiss
<midfavila>
never heard of it
<midfavila>
looks like it's freebsd and illumos only
<midfavila>
what the fuck lmao
<midfavila>
imagine supporting ilumos but not loonix
<midfavila>
wild
<sad_plan>
I think thats what its called. lemme check
<midfavila>
looks like it. tier two hypervisor
<midfavila>
anyway good luck getting pavlov's weird af custom qt to build or whatever
<midfavila>
i've heard they do weird shit with the official client
<midfavila>
you can use third party clients pretty easily though
<sad_plan>
yeah looks like bsd only. anyway, we still have kvm
<midfavila>
for a while i used pidgin with a telegram plugin
<sad_plan>
can create a bridge to telegram with matrix though. matrix has cli clients.
<sad_plan>
which should probably work with musl
<midfavila>
you could also just use a third party telegram client
<sad_plan>
or that
<midfavila>
of which there are a number as far as i'm aware
<sad_plan>
likely
<midfavila>
well, there's an official telegram library in C++ or something
<midfavila>
new project for the pile, clipboard manager with a xaw frontend
<midfavila>
xclipboard is shit and so is not running a clipboard management daemon
<sad_plan>
what about xsel?
<sad_plan>
also shite?
<sad_plan>
:p
<midfavila>
pidgin doesn't handle PRIMARY properly which annoys the shit out of me
<midfavila>
and idk i haven't looked at it
<anon>
midfavila, Proprietary software can't be installed?
<sad_plan>
^ correct
<midfavila>
not if there aren't builds of it for musl
<sad_plan>
more or less
<midfavila>
there are hacks but if you rely on proprietary software for work or anything then KISS likely isn't suitable for you as a daily driver
<sad_plan>
you can use gkiss instead though, which might solve some issues
<midfavila>
^
<midfavila>
i was able to get gkiss to run steam and the local flash player that adobe distributes when i still used it
<sad_plan>
gkiss + flatpak would probably solve alot of the issues anon is looking at here
<midfavila>
kind of contradicts the point of kiss
<sad_plan>
but at that point, why not just arch instead, or genpoo
<sad_plan>
yeah
<midfavila>
jesus christ for some reason i'm absolutely *wired* right now
<anon>
What is gkiss?
<midfavila>
glibc based kiss fork
<sad_plan>
codeberg.org/kiss-community/gkiss iirc
<midfavila>
you know what i should do
<midfavila>
i should write a file picker widget for xaw with thumbnails
<midfavila>
absolutely annihilate the gnome devs
<sad_plan>
oblitirate them m8
<midfavila>
didn't they finally add thumbnails to the picker, except they're completely trash?
<sad_plan>
I have no idea. I dont really follow any gnome news, as I dont use it at all. the closest thing I use to gnome would be xfce, which is what I use on an artix install I have
<midfavila>
i only follow gnome enough to make fun of them
<sad_plan>
well thats also a reason for watching their developement LO
<sad_plan>
:p*
<midfavila>
nah
<midfavila>
i'll fully admit to only keeping up with gnome through the grapevine
<midfavila>
it's less "haha GNOME still doesn't have thumbnails in the picker" and more "haha look at these dweebs trying to pretend they're an actual serious project"
<sad_plan>
are you implying that gnome isnt a serious project? fr? :p
<midfavila>
yes :v
<midfavila>
gtk is a joke
<midfavila>
a bad one at that
<midfavila>
gnome is a fucking mess too
<midfavila>
i'm going to write my own display server with my own toolkit and i'm going to base my own DE on that and it's going to have blackjack and furries
<midfavila>
btfo gnomelets singlehandedly. watch me
<sad_plan>
what about hookers?
<midfavila>
degenerate
<midfavila>
blackjack will be fine because it's going to be against the computer so it won't actually cause any harm
<midfavila>
i mean i guess it could have like, a desktop mascot hooker
<midfavila>
like those win98/xp era programs
<midfavila>
reminds me that i need to look at xneko and similar trinkets
<sad_plan>
lol. furries will have to do then :p
<midfavila>
dude it'll have pre-co-opt xenia
<niceguy5000[m]>
<anon> "midfavila, Proprietary software..." <- Richard Stallman doesn't approve. This is a LIBRE DISTRO.
<midfavila>
it'll be based
<midfavila>
niceguy5000[m]: you're trying too hard
<sad_plan>
dunno what xenia is though
<midfavila>
one of the competitors to tux in the original linux mascot contest
<midfavila>
fox with glasses by some dude from the amiga scene. aaron schwartz or something? the sabrina online guy
<sad_plan>
I see
<sad_plan>
ah aaron schwartz I know of
<sad_plan>
the internets own boy.
<sad_plan>
he was called
<sad_plan>
or the movie is anyway
<midfavila>
i don't actually think that was the name of the artist lmao
<midfavila>
nope alan mackey
<midfavila>
completely wrong
<midfavila>
any time i think of "guy who did things on the internet" my brain immediately responds with "aaron schwartz"
<midfavila>
anyway yeah someone on bluebird website drew xenia as a female and then they were surprised to learn that he's actually male
<midfavila>
so then they did the sane and reasonable thing and decided to go bug the original artist to make xenia twans uwuwuwuwuwuwu
<midfavila>
and he was like "yeah sure whatever that works i guess"
<Ellowee[m]>
Ehmkhe
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<niceguy5000[m]>
tux is the best mascot.
<midfavila>
and now you have a bunch of people shoving their hands up one of linux's alternative mascots' asses to puppet them for their own points of view
<midfavila>
which is very cool and awesome
<midfavila>
yes let's change existing cultural artifacts instead of actually creating something new
<midfavila>
this is the kind of shit that really pisses me off
<midfavila>
it's not about coping and seething because a fictional character was drawn by someone saying edgy shit and posted on the internet to annoy other people
<midfavila>
it's about coping and seething that other people are so fucking insecure and petty that they would feel the need to do that
<midfavila>
no well-adjusted person sits down and thinks long and hard and then says "hmmm yes today i shall take a character completely unrelated to something i'm involved in and use them as a mouthpiece for my own point of view for the specific purpose of making other people feel worse"
<midfavila>
should rename #kisslinux to #mid-rants already gosh
<midfavila>
or maybe i should actually use my blog for once
<midfavila>
something else i ought to do, figure out how to decouple an editor engine and interface...
<midfavila>
the problem is in needing to hold two copies of the current file in memory
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<midfavila>
or, well, N+1 copies where N is the number of discrete interfaces open to the current file...
<midfavila>
not giving up on my graphical ed
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<Ellowee[m]>
graphical and ed don't go together
<Ellowee[m]>
ed was meant not to display anything
<midfavila>
that's where you're wrong
<midfavila>
ed with a UI is legitimately super comfy
<midfavila>
the only things preventing me from using ed as my primary editor for all tasks is a) i can't keep a hundred plus line document in my head at once and b) there's no way to conveniently edit one or two characters within a line
<midfavila>
s/is/are/
<Ellowee[m]>
vi is supposed ed successor
<midfavila>
vi is disgusting
<midfavila>
it's the bastard child of ed's grandson
<midfavila>
the only thing it has in common with ed is that some of the ex commands it uses are inherited from ed
<midfavila>
a much better graphical ed can be found in the screen editor, se
<Ellowee[m]>
you would end up like it
<Ellowee[m]>
emacs though... if concurrency was a thing there
<midfavila>
no, it wouldn't end up anything like vi
<midfavila>
because i'm inspired by se, which is more akin to sam
<midfavila>
main area to provide a view of what you're currently editing and a command prompt to allow entering editing commands, and that's it
<midfavila>
se also has very primitive line editing
<midfavila>
if i could i would just modernize se but its code predates ANSI C iirc and it's also a complete mess internally
<midfavila>
i tried using TECO for a while since it's much more powerful than ed is given it's a byte-addressed editor but i got filtered pretty hard since literally every character is a different command and they all do such tiny things that editing is super tedious
<midfavila>
not to mention modern unix teco is something like 20k lines of c iirc
<illiliti>
suggest me sane gui code editor
<midfavila>
emacs
<illiliti>
sane
<midfavila>
lucid emacs
<illiliti>
dude
<midfavila>
dudette
<midfavila>
my broski
<midfavila>
openoffice is also an option
<sad_plan>
microsofts text editor is for sure the sanest one
<midfavila>
wordpad is my favorite ide
<sad_plan>
can wordpad even read files other than .doc?
<midfavila>
it reads .doc?
<illiliti>
sigh
<midfavila>
i figured it was for rtf
<midfavila>
illiliti: i don't know what you expected asking such vague questions
<midfavila>
i consider emacs to be a sane editor
<illiliti>
i don't
<sad_plan>
I think it reads .doc. havent used it since I was a child or something
<illiliti>
does too much thing
<illiliti>
and isn't simple
<sad_plan>
an editor should just.. edit
<illiliti>
source code is a mess
<illiliti>
yes
<illiliti>
i'm about to write one
<midfavila>
at its core emacs is pretty simple and doesn't do much other than edit
<illiliti>
if no such exists
<midfavila>
there's always uh
<midfavila>
fuck what was it
<midfavila>
it's based on lua
<sad_plan>
well please let us know about it, so we can try it out illiliti
<midfavila>
i don't really like lua but i can respect textadept's hack value and it's a decent program
<illiliti>
interesting option. i'll check it
<midfavila>
back when i still tried to shove square pegs into round holes it was my text editor of choice
<midfavila>
since its custom scintilla text editing widget can run under gtk or curses
<illiliti>
gtk is shit but what else do we have?
<midfavila>
athena
<illiliti>
i wonder what mpv uses
<midfavila>
mpv is almost certainly raw xlib or xt
<midfavila>
or, actually
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
it's sdl
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* midfavila
facepalms
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<midfavila>
oh
<midfavila>
there's the obvious choice for a sane gui text editor too
<midfavila>
xedit
* midfavila
nods sagely
<midfavila>
the strongest editor
<midfavila>
i actually need to replace xedit. found a little 1k line motif editor a while back that i keep meaning to read and use as the basis for a notepad-like editor using athena's textedit widget
<midfavila>
speaking of motif editors you could also look at nsedit
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<midfavila>
thanks pidgin
<illiliti>
^ something i considered before but dropped
<midfavila>
>vi
<midfavila>
into the trash it goes
<midfavila>
vi bindings are literally fucking cancer
<illiliti>
i don't have problems with vi
<midfavila>
i do
<midfavila>
its interface is unnecessarily awkward on modern machines and every key has like ten different fucking functions, all of which are only slightly different from each other
<midfavila>
or at least vim seems that way
<midfavila>
not to mention the retarded take that vim in particular is somehow "minimal" or "simpler" than emacs
<illiliti>
depends on what you mean by that
<midfavila>
no, it really doesn't
<illiliti>
in some ways vim is simpler
<midfavila>
in basically every way vim and emacs are equally bloated. sure, vim doesn't include a tetris clone (at least I don't think) but it does require that you load *everything* at runtime, whereas emacs loads things dynamically, so you only pay for what you use
<midfavila>
elisp is easy enough to learn and experience with it can be transferred somewhat to and from other lisps
<midfavila>
vimscript, on the other hand, is bespoke afaik and seems kind of clunky in comparison to lisp
<midfavila>
don't get me wrong i'm not a gnumacs fan or anything, i just hate vi cultists
<illiliti>
i'm not vim cultist, so don't hate me pls
<midfavila>
it's okay illiliti, even if you were you're special uwu
<midfavila>
we both use kiss so i can't hate you
<illiliti>
good to hear
<midfavila>
ultimately i think the *idea* of emacs has some merit to it
<midfavila>
i just think the way it's implemented is bad
<illiliti>
yes
<midfavila>
if you want something similar to elisp in spirit that's more in line with what i consider ideal, look at Amiga AREXX
<midfavila>
served a similar purpose in AmigaOS to both ELisp in Emacs and Bourne in Unix
<midfavila>
compatible programs exposed a library of AREXX functions as well as data and they could send and receive AREXX commands and data objects at any time during execution in order to perform operations on it
<midfavila>
so you have the elegance and ease of use of unix pipes with the flexibility and expressiveness of a more powerful language like lisp
<illiliti>
actually i don't want editor that is too flexible and powerful in terms of scripts
<midfavila>
it's not about an editor being flexible
<midfavila>
it's about an OS being flexible
<midfavila>
bourne is limited to data flowing from left to right
<midfavila>
AREXX and similar systems have no such limitations
<midfavila>
any program can send any data/code to any other program at any time for any particular reason
<midfavila>
and all of this can be modified during runtime
<midfavila>
anyway i have a lunch date with a friend tomorrow and it's past my bed time so
<Ellowee[m]>
You derive from derivations of thought
<vulpine>
turn your brain into a nixos derivation!
<testuser[m]123>
Hi
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<testuser[m]123>
nooc
<testuser[m]123>
noocsharp: works
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<niceguy5000[m]>
I love kiss linux I can build my own OS like I want it. I can use framebufffers all the way! Thanks Dylan Araps!!
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<testuser[m]123>
IBM bought Redhat BECAUSE they wanted to push podman to begin with. Docker was in the middle of discussions with IBM execs to bring the docker client up to the spec IBM was requesting. IBM was unhappy with the timeline and dropped docker support across ALL Redhat products going forward, again, in-the-middle-of-discussions.
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<niceguy5000[m]>
You think docker is da future or podman?
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<testuser[m]123>
illiliti: our policy is no /usr/libexec right?
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<testuser[m]123>
also usr/share/pkgconfig vs usr/lib/pkgconfig
<illiliti>
the latter definitely should not be touched
<illiliti>
as well as /usr/libexec
<illiliti>
all are correct locations and have use cases
<testuser[m]123>
hmm tons of pkgs already had --libexecdir=/usr/lib so i thought thats what we were going with
<testuser[m]123>
in main repo
<illiliti>
are you sure that --libexecdir has affect at all?
<illiliti>
perhaps they don't need it specified
<testuser[m]123>
yeah it makes the build system install programs in /usr/lib instead of libexec
<testuser[m]123>
ig it should be removed from everywhere?
<illiliti>
probably
<illiliti>
if nothing breaks
<illiliti>
also fyi /usr/share/pkgconfig is used for data-independent files. hwdata is example
<testuser[m]123>
yeah that seems fine
<illiliti>
*arch-independent
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<midfavila>
do you guys know of any high quality bitmap fonts for general use?
<midfavila>
i'm going through my PC and getting rid of the scalable fonts I have right now, but finding bitmaps that are on the larger side is proving tricky
<midfavila>
i've found a few 32px and 64px ones that are okay
<sad_plan>
I use tamzen. but maybe not what youre looking for?
<midfavila>
my current setup of kiss is getting crusty so i'm going to do a reinstall on my desktop soon, figured now would be a good time to go through and put together a semi-cohesive UI
<midfavila>
big goal today is to get a prototype xedit replacement put together
<midfavila>
xedit is like 60k lines of code
<midfavila>
~50k lines of C and 8k lines of lisp
<midfavila>
because, fun fact, xedit has a subset-of-Common Lisp interpreter built into it
<midfavila>
go figure
<davidgarland>
lol
<midfavila>
honestly looking through the source of the x11 demo programs is a trip
<midfavila>
you find all kinds of wacky shit
<midfavila>
like originally xedit was supposed to compete with emacs
<midfavila>
i vaguely recall some comments in the source tree about a prototype email client
<midfavila>
"This is a small lisp interpreter for xedit. It implements a subset of Common Lisp and the xedit package implements several of the basic Emacs lisp functions." -- xedit/lisp/README
<midfavila>
"Currently, it should be used as an helper and/or a small calculator embedded in xedit. For the future it should be possible to write entire interfaces in the xedit text buffers."
<midfavila>
goes on to talk about improvements to xedit and the lisp engine to allow it to do things like basic word processing or wysiwyg html
<midfavila>
>but there is no intention of competition [with GNU Emacs]
<midfavila>
was wrong about that
<davidgarland>
ic
<midfavila>
sorry i'm rambling again ;w;
<midfavila>
i just really like fiddling with old X programs
<davidgarland>
no it's interesting I think lol
<midfavila>
i'm thinking of writing a replacement for xload too
<davidgarland>
do you have a similar plan re: scripting though? if you don't feel like building out a language https://wren.io/ looks kinda interesting
<midfavila>
i do not
<midfavila>
my editor is intended to be functionally equivalent to something like MS Notepad
<davidgarland>
gotcha
<midfavila>
i was rambling last night though about how i have plans for a... i suppose fairly sophisticated editor down the line
<midfavila>
based on ed
<davidgarland>
o.O
<davidgarland>
like as in no visual presentation of the text?
<midfavila>
well, no, not quite
<midfavila>
that's where it gets a little weird
<midfavila>
see, back in the 70s and 80s, kernighan and plauger put out a book called software tools and later software tools in pascal
<midfavila>
it includes an ed implementation in Rational Fortran in the first and portable Pascal in the second, and the software in these books is fairly freely licensed iirc
<midfavila>
so a bunch of different schools took these programs and modified and extended them to be actually useful in the real world
<midfavila>
...let me pull up my notes real quick...
<davidgarland>
lol
<midfavila>
yeah I was right it was at Georgia Tech
<midfavila>
so the people at Georgia Tech modified software tools' edit into "se", the "screen editor"
<davidgarland>
"rational" sounds like exactly the sort of adjective you'd attach to fortran to try to sell it, that's funny
<midfavila>
it gets even funnier when you learn that it was implemented as a set of m4 macros! :D
<davidgarland>
lmao
<midfavila>
*and* that it was actually used in production
<midfavila>
because at the time it legitimately was a better language than standard fortran
<midfavila>
had a more familiar syntax and better loop constructs and stuff
<davidgarland>
I remember seeing some knuth text about replacing operators like + with ) + ( to do precedence
<midfavila>
anyway
<davidgarland>
so hacky
<midfavila>
kek
<midfavila>
but yeah so se is basically ed with a gui
<midfavila>
or, well, a "gui"
<midfavila>
it draws line numbers on the left side of the screen, and has a small single-line command input box at the bottom
<midfavila>
the rest of the screen is devoted to a display of the current file being edited
<midfavila>
there are two modes, and like vi you start in command mode
<midfavila>
in that, it's literally just ed
<midfavila>
like there's no extra commands or anything like that, other than the ability to use the relative line numbers to address lines instead of just absolute line numbers
<midfavila>
(the first 26 lines are labelled alphabetically and the remainder are numeric)
<davidgarland>
I see
<davidgarland>
tbh I've never actually used ed, I've only seen the "eat flaming death" copypasta bit about it
<davidgarland>
so it's hard for me to imagine what using that is like
<midfavila>
if you enter the commands 'i', 'a', or 'v', you enter append mode, as you might expect for the first two... although in this case append and insert are actually instances of the more general line editing mode se has
<midfavila>
and it's weird at first
<midfavila>
but after using it for ~8 months for editing small files it's really grown on me
<midfavila>
the problem is that it's literally like twice as old as i am
<midfavila>
and its codebase is a mess
<midfavila>
so what i want to do is write an ed-inspired editor that exposes its internal state via a pseudofilesystem
<midfavila>
and then write an interface to sit on top of that
<davidgarland>
"pseudofilesystem" as in it's kept in RAM somehow?
<midfavila>
well, no, not quite
<midfavila>
have you ever used suckless ii?
<davidgarland>
nope
<midfavila>
oh
<midfavila>
it's an irc client that represents servers and channels using directories and FIFOs
<midfavila>
as a sort of filesystem
<midfavila>
it's weird
<midfavila>
but i really dig it, conceptually
<midfavila>
i basically want that, but for an editor
<davidgarland>
what would the files correspond to in the editor's case
<midfavila>
that's a good question and one i don't have a solid answer to yet
<midfavila>
this is just sort of a vague idea of a "nice to have"
<midfavila>
i don't have nearly enough experience to even consider attempting an implementation, let alone a proper design
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<davidgarland>
I see, sounds interesting either way though
<midfavila>
current idea is to have one FIFO that accepts commands, another that outputs status messages, a third to actually get the text buffer out, etc
<midfavila>
you can either cat commands directly into the command fifo or use an interface that implements policy, and constructs and inserts commands based on how you interact with it
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<midfavila>
this means that you could have a frontend in perl, or awk, or shell, or lisp, or C, or any other language with I/O abilities, and you could use any toolkit
<davidgarland>
that seems nice
<midfavila>
so if the underlying engine program is written in portable C, then every platform it runs on could have a native interface without complicating the underlying design with things like preprocessor statements
<midfavila>
you could also hook existing programs into the environment
<midfavila>
it's sort of like an autistic cross between emacs, acme, sam and ed
<midfavila>
and ii
<midfavila>
eventually i want to write my own versions of most programs i use on a day to day basis in a fashion similar to this hypothetical editor i'm describing
<davidgarland>
~~"special ed" if you will~~
<midfavila>
the specialest
<davidgarland>
I don't know how to do irc strikethrough
<davidgarland>
outed
<midfavila>
~~foo~~ works
<davidgarland>
oh huh
<midfavila>
there's a spec for markup in irc but nothing implements it
<davidgarland>
im using the libera webchat and it's not doing it
<davidgarland>
they got lazy ig
<midfavila>
i know that pidgin has a plugin for it
<midfavila>
but like
<midfavila>
who cares lmao it's irc
<davidgarland>
xp
<midfavila>
but yeah the idea is eventually to achieve something like amiga AREXX
<midfavila>
which is like unix pipes but on steroids
<midfavila>
i've been thinking of implementing something conceptually similar to it using a lisp for years
<midfavila>
and then a friend told me that arexx literally exists a few months ago and i was like
<midfavila>
"dude this is it"
<davidgarland>
lol
<midfavila>
it's just such a better model for computing
<midfavila>
i want to (ab)use the XEmbed protocol a lot too
<midfavila>
so you could have intermediate formats for, say, an image, and then your image viewer runs in the background and for each image you tell it to open, it decodes the image into that intermediate format, and creates a new directory allowing you to pull it out in various ways
<midfavila>
you could pull the image itself out, you could get just the metadata, whatever
<midfavila>
would depend on the original format of the image
<davidgarland>
that's neat
<midfavila>
and then your frontend program can be whatever you want - maybe on linux you could just cat the image directly to the framebuffer device to display it, idk
<midfavila>
but if you're using, say, X11, you could have a program to render that intermediate format as a bitmap
<midfavila>
and then *that* program could support xembed,
<midfavila>
which could allow it to be swallowed and treated as a widget by any other program that advertises xembed support, like, say, tabbed
<midfavila>
this means that all the extra GUI crud that people using a 9wm or dwm style window manager for example might not want could itself be its own program
<midfavila>
but it also means that, say, an IRC client written in a manner consistent with what i'm describing could be customized by a user to automatically retrieve images from URIs posted in a given chat,
<midfavila>
pass that image to the decoding program,
<midfavila>
spin up a new frontend, and swallow it
<midfavila>
written in a generic enough manner, you could use the same approach to allow the client to display inline video, or... well, anything
<midfavila>
because it's not actually the client itself doing it-
<midfavila>
i don't know if that makes sense or if it sounds like a bad idea but *i* think it's cool
<davidgarland>
it sounds interesting
<midfavila>
the other thing with the GUI crud being its own thing is that you could write a basic MOTIF/CUA compliant UI generator,
<midfavila>
and then have that program generate its menus and shit based on the contents of the underlying engine's directories
<midfavila>
so it would also massively save on development time
<midfavila>
since you wouldn't actually need to write a dedicated UI for every single program you write
<midfavila>
you just plug it into "motif-ui" or "gtk-ui" or "athena-ui" or "curses-ui" or whatever and bam
<midfavila>
instant GUI
<midfavila>
i intend to experiment initially with these ideas by writing a task bar module for my setup
<midfavila>
tint2 and lxde's bar and all those other DEs have afaik totally bespoke and incompatible extension methods for their taskbars
<midfavila>
but if you just use xembed like
<midfavila>
there's your clock, there's your load monitors, there's a terminal, and so on
<midfavila>
tl;dr actually take advantage of X11's features
<davidgarland>
I think what would be cool re: program communication (at least 1-way) is if the shell was some lazy, statically typed functional language, then bash "|" pipelines would just be changed out for plain old function composition and parsing/unparsing stuff as text wouldn't be necessary all the time
<midfavila>
unfortunately my knowledge of language design isn't sufficient enough for me to comment on that
<midfavila>
re: my earlier remarks about a lisp extension language though, i'm considering implementing it as a sort of hybrid between bourne and scheme, so... that would at least allow for a little more flexibility
<davidgarland>
gotcha
<midfavila>
for as much as i talk about computers i don't actually know very much about them
<midfavila>
xwx
<midfavila>
or, you know, computer science or anything related
<davidgarland>
I see xp
<davidgarland>
there's always more to learn tbf
<midfavila>
i'm honestly not a point where i'm knowledgeable enough to even start studying computer science at a level beyond like
<midfavila>
"this is a linked list"
<davidgarland>
I feel like you can self teach most of it
<midfavila>
oh, absolutely
<midfavila>
the problem is that i have basically zero formal education
<davidgarland>
just like writing programs, talking to people about it, looking at blog posts regarding the topics
<midfavila>
so i have huge gaps in my knowledge regarding fundamental things that i need to a) identify and b) correct before i can look at specializing in something
<davidgarland>
hm ok
<midfavila>
yeah
<midfavila>
like my mathematics skills are maybe ninth grade at best right now, overall :v
<midfavila>
because i've just never really been taught
<davidgarland>
I see
<davidgarland>
I know up to precalc, nothing beyond that
<midfavila>
better 'n me :D
<midfavila>
there's an entire generation of students in my city who graduated from high school with no idea what algebra is
<davidgarland>
woah
<midfavila>
that's why i'm the way i am :D
<midfavila>
pandemic happened halfway through high school
<davidgarland>
oof
<davidgarland>
is access to computing not as widespread there?
<davidgarland>
my school moved to doing stuff online when it hit
<midfavila>
they shut down for a year about halfway through a year, pushed everyone ahead a grade, and then when nobody could do the work at their current grade level (because they didn't even get halfway through the last one) they shoved everyone into reduced classes
<midfavila>
and no, i live in canada
<midfavila>
everyone has a PC
<midfavila>
the school just didn't have the infrastructure for that
<davidgarland>
I see
<davidgarland>
I would've thought it's less infrastructure needed, as I think it's all just handed off to a company like Pearson to host the online quizzes and educational material and stuff
<davidgarland>
maybe they charge the schools a lot, I dunno
<midfavila>
dunno
* midfavila
shrugs
<midfavila>
all i know is that i was too busy freaking out about the world literally collapsing around me to do any of the work i had :v
<davidgarland>
that's fair
<davidgarland>
nobody knew how bad it would get, or wouldn't get
<midfavila>
eventually i went back and finished 10, 11 and 12 in like two and a half, three months, so i have a diploma, but... none of the skills, really
<davidgarland>
I'm still a lil scared of it because it seems to have lasting impacts for some people but not others
<midfavila>
i'm at the point where i've given up
<midfavila>
humans exhibit emergent stupidity
<midfavila>
no point in trying to fight against it any more
<davidgarland>
lol
<midfavila>
people gotta get their funko pops and watch their capeshit man
<midfavila>
i can't just wait three weeks to see my friends!!!
<davidgarland>
yeah :L
<midfavila>
i had like, a mini-meltdown on another server the other day about the state of things
<midfavila>
i have no idea how i'm supposed to spend my 20s establishing myself when i can't even afford rent and food unless i work two jobs
* midfavila
facedesks repeatedly
<davidgarland>
that's fucked yeah
<sad_plan>
that is infact a really big problem, and its not just a problem in the us and canada. its a rising problem in several countries actually. its really fucked
<midfavila>
i'm going to spend the next few months working really hard to shore up my knowledge to the point that i can get a remote programming job or something
<sad_plan>
housing has become unfordable
<midfavila>
i don't even need a lot
<davidgarland>
that is a good plan, I think you can get there for sure
<midfavila>
i hope so
<midfavila>
i figure that a lack of formal education and in-depth knowledge of every obscure data structure and algorithm out there can be compensated for by demonstrated experience writing software
<davidgarland>
yeah
<midfavila>
"sure i might not know what a red-black tree is or how to implement one from scratch, sure i might not be able to perform case analyses on the spot, but i've written a bunch of software complete with design documents and test harnesses and build automation and etc etc etc"
<sad_plan>
I think that would count before actuall education. you can have a world of education, but still lack the basic knowledge
<midfavila>
idk man
<davidgarland>
I mean I'd recommend knowing the time complexities of the common ones, linked lists, arrays, hashmaps, binary trees, whatever, because they *are* commonly useful
<midfavila>
oh yeah of course
<davidgarland>
I personally don't bother with leetcode style grinding stuff though
<midfavila>
i have a bunch of textbooks on algorithms and stuff too
<midfavila>
it's just... well, like i said, i lack the mathematical capability to understand most of the material
<midfavila>
at least right now
<davidgarland>
I see
<midfavila>
embarassing to admit on my part, but honesty is important :p
<sad_plan>
honesty, even to yourself is important. lying to yourself, is just silly
<midfavila>
i just don't want to get caught up in the cycle of working to earn the privilege of working
<midfavila>
fuck that, man
<sad_plan>
I get that. I dont belive we exist on this earth, only to work away your whole life, to be able to afford basic ammendities like roof over your head and food
<midfavila>
mmh
<midfavila>
being a full-time wageslave just so you can afford to be one is a particularly cruel kind of hell
<midfavila>
there's like
<midfavila>
a genre of horror based entirely around that
<sad_plan>
modern day slavery
<midfavila>
the dullness of bureaucracy
<midfavila>
like fuck cthulu
<midfavila>
i know that humanity is nothing on a cosmic scale
<midfavila>
what *really* induces ego death is being forced to put on a corporate-approved attitude 40+ hours a week while you get screamed at because there's one minor mistake in the drink you're serving
<sad_plan>
unbareable. I wouldlve quit long ago
<midfavila>
i'm not there yet, but i'm close to it
<midfavila>
if it wasn't also filled with bureaucracy i'd just homestead
<sad_plan>
I mean. Id rather be a homeless vagabond instead. even if it has it downsides, one can atleast see the world
<midfavila>
i have zero problem with the idea of working from sun up to sun down to provide for myself if it means i can actually, you know
<midfavila>
*provide for myself*
<midfavila>
and unfortunately being homeless is particularly dangerous in my area
<sad_plan>
I get that. I dont really like that the goverment takes what 40% of your earnings, then even more so when you go buy food for yourself
<midfavila>
i'm fine with taxation as a concept, just not with how it's spent
<sad_plan>
yeah, not every place is good for being homeless. some places in canada might be one of then, also because of the low temperatures during winter season
<sad_plan>
taxation is theft though
<midfavila>
when most of your citizens can't afford to follow your health and food guidelines, yet you take their money to send food overseas, it puts a bad taste in my mouth
<sad_plan>
indeed
<midfavila>
sad_plan: theft isn't inherently immoral, and also no, i disagree
<midfavila>
the upper classes losing 5% of their income a year so that lower classes can afford, for example, food
<midfavila>
is perfectly fair
<midfavila>
because if that *doesn't* happen, people start getting violent, and then you stand to lose a lot more than 5% of your income
<midfavila>
it also improves economic productivity
<sad_plan>
how is theft not inherently immoral? now Im curious. its theft because someone is taking something you own, without your consent. its also by force, and under the threat of imprisonment
<midfavila>
if i haven't eaten in five days and i steal food or money to buy food, i'm only doing that to satisfy a need that i am *literally entitled to fulfillment of*
<midfavila>
you can't seriously say that someone who can't afford what they're literally entitled to as a human stealing from someone who has so much they throw away enough to feed multiple people is somehow a poor reflection on the former
<sad_plan>
sure, you can rationlize it at that point
<midfavila>
it's not rationalization, it's justification
<midfavila>
there's absolutely nothing objectionable about it, in my opinion
<sad_plan>
yeah, that was maybe the more correct wording here
<midfavila>
if you won't employ me, you won't feed me, you won't house me, and you won't let me employ, feed, or house myself, then you don't get to go on about me being a bad person when i start getting desperate. or, you know, "you" and "I/me" for "A" and "B"
<midfavila>
not actually saying anything about you or myself in particular here
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<midfavila>
if anything, grossly excessive wealth is what's immoral
<sad_plan>
^ yep
<midfavila>
one person hoarding enough resources to sustain a hundred people, just because "well I earned it", is fucking bullshit
<midfavila>
because honestly they probably didn't!
<sad_plan>
the even worse part is they refuse to share, while the rest of the wordls crumbles beneath their feet, and dying of hunger and famine
<midfavila>
indeed. taxes, when managed properly, can help alleviate that.
<midfavila>
the problem is that in canada we send all of our tax money overseas or spend it on bringing more people into the country
* midfavila
sighs
<sad_plan>
sure it can, but if taxation is forced upon unwilling subjects, its initally still theft
<midfavila>
if you don't want to be taxed, then leave - and i do think that the latter should be an option
<midfavila>
if you really think you can go without what tax pays for, then seriously, all the power to you
<sad_plan>
were can I leave, and not be taxed? I cant think of a place I can go to avoid that tbh
<midfavila>
there are a few small countries that don't levy tax
<midfavila>
i don't think that it's necessarily fair that people are forced into taxation from birth, mind
<sad_plan>
thats not what im saying. Im saying its theft, but im not saying we cant have good things of it
<midfavila>
but i do think that considering most people can't even find fresh water without public services, it's a fair trade in most situations
<sad_plan>
cause, sure my country have lots of good things which has been made possible with taxes and everything else, like good roads, or streetlights, free healthcare and so on
<sad_plan>
huh, theres actually alot of countries that dont levy income tax on its people. more than I thought
<sad_plan>
and some of them arent actually horrible either
<sad_plan>
like really poor
<midfavila>
they probably also have a lot less red tape regarding lifestyle
<midfavila>
here, there are fucking
<midfavila>
minimum housing size regulations
<sad_plan>
what you mean by red tape?
<midfavila>
so you can't get a house unless it's a certain size, which drives up cost of stuff
<midfavila>
not for any reason afaik, it's just what was decided