ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
<shokara_> no wonder I couldn't find the lt1000 anywhere
<shokara_> libretrend
<midfavila> yup
<midfavila> maybe i should look into the eoma68 some more
<midfavila> is it out yet lmao
<midfavila> last update was a year ago
<midfavila> interesting mobo
<midfavila> uses an "elbrus" CPU - some kind of sparc variant i think
<shokara_> looks really nice, I hope it comes out soon
<midfavila> watch it be even more expensive than a raptor engineering system
<shokara_> surely it can't be because of it being mini-itx and not even having pcie4 nor ibm's expensive cpus
* shokara_ sweats
<midfavila> instead it has russian SPARCs made in god knows how small volume batches and a bunch of custom software to allow x86-64 code to run :v
<midfavila> what could possibly go wrong amirite
<shokara_> mhm
<midfavila> looks like eoma68 is still a thing, they just had one of their core team members vanish overnight
<midfavila> question is, if they're still a thing, why not provide any new updates?
<shokara_> \_(:/)_/
<midfavila> where's my libre pc guys
<midfavila> WHERE IS IT
<midfavila> gah it's so annoying seeing idiots post about FLOSS computers with inanities like "wow that CPU might have been good twenty years ago" or "X gigs of RAM? how am I supposed to run Windows on *that*?". clearly if those are your concerns then the machine was never meant for you
* midfavila grumbles
<shokara_> I don't get what's wrong with a CPU that's equivalent to one from 20 years ago
<midfavila> it's too slow for forkknife and muh saas webapps
<shokara_> Sure it may not run the latest and greatest vidya nor compile chromium in under an hour, but it can do everything else fine.
<midfavila> >gtk5 is being developed now
<midfavila> word on the street is that it's going to drop x11
<davidgarland> is each GTK version like substantially different from the last, like a proper rewrite, or is it just an incremental "we added more stuff, and things got more complicated and bloated" sort of deal
<davidgarland> have never done any GUI programming outside of WPF stuff for work
<midfavila> i know that gtk1 > 2 > 3 were all big changes, but idk about 3 > 4 or 4 > 5
<midfavila> i've never bothered with gtk/qt myself
<midfavila> i only look at Xt-based toolkits
<midfavila> e.g Xaw, Motif, etc
<davidgarland> I see
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> soon:tm: i'll be able to remove gtk2 and its friends from my setup
<midfavila> need to replace pidgin and lxtask, and find alternatives to the few JS sites i use atm
<midfavila> actually hm
<midfavila> might not be too hard to replace lxtask
<midfavila> in its entirety it's maybe 1500 lines of c
<davidgarland> nice
<midfavila> 1151 not counting xfce-specific stuff
<shokara_> what does lxtask do?
<midfavila> it's a process manager
<shokara_> is it like the system monitor (stats?) in plan9?
<shokara_> oh
<shokara_> why not just use (h)top
<midfavila> because it would be more efficient to use a xaw-based program, and it's more aesthetically pleasing
<shokara_> gotcha
<midfavila> and no that's not exaggeration, athena-based programs are significantly more efficient than running a cli equivalent in an xterm or something
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<rohan> hey guys
<rohan> how things are going in kiss?
<midfavila> pin this
<midfavila> right now
<midfavila> *extremely* important image
<shokara_> :)
<niceguy5000[m]> why hasn't the suckless and kiss community create a minimal system, Is it because the web standard?
<midfavila> at the very least i'm working on it
<midfavila> i'm sure others are
<midfavila> are as well*
<shokara_> does stali and morpheus not count?
<niceguy5000[m]> no I mean with a kernel and such.
<midfavila> what kernel would you suggets
<midfavila> suggest fuck
<niceguy5000[m]> something that going to content rust in the future.
<niceguy5000[m]> isn't rust going to take over the linux kerenl?
<niceguy5000[m]> s/kerenl/kernel/
<midfavila> maybe
<midfavila> and i mean idk how many people here have OS dev skills and of those how many have the inclination
<midfavila> the suckless folks probably just work on plan 9
<niceguy5000[m]> I get it's a huge project, google couldn't get Fuchsia OS running and it's been a long time.
<midfavila> i mean idk if it is
<midfavila> you can get a unix-like kernel running in around 10k lines of C iirc
<midfavila> look at xv6
<midfavila> it's just the drivers that suck
<midfavila> not to mention audio, porting or writing a graphics subsystem, etc
<midfavila> and for most people they just wanna cood or gaym or watch videos or whatever, not futz about with kernels, so
<midfavila> no point in wasting effort /shrug
<niceguy5000[m]> yeah I get it lol.
<shokara_> well, 9front cn do all that
<shokara_> can
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<sewn> Ji
<sewn> Hi
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<niceguy5000[m]> wael: Hi
<davidgarland> o/
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<testuser[m]123> Hi
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<Ellowee[m]> ih
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<sad_plan> hi
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<Guest92> hi does anybody know why running seatd-launch sway boots to a black screen? cant find anything anywhere !! using vmware
<sewn> why seatd-launch?
<sewn> you can just launch sway without it
<Guest92> just sway doesnt work for me and i have no idea why
<sewn> also, make sure you configured your kernel to support 'vmware' graphics drivers
<sewn> i would suggest using qemu isntead
<sewn> graphics drive
<sewn> rs
<Guest92> i did all the necessary kernel stuff.. i guess ill just try on qemu !! thanks anyway
<sewn> vmware is
<sewn> absolutely propietary
<midfavila> le bad
<Guest92> i did find another guy that had the same problem just on void
<sewn> absolutely propieatyray
<Guest92> saying he had to install like 100 things to get vmware to work
<Guest92> so i thought it was that
<Guest92> idk
<midfavila> yeah you can just try qemu or bochs
<sewn> the only vmware package kiss as is one for xorg lol
<midfavila> waylets demolished yet again
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<sad_plan> hi
<sewn> hi
<sewn> hi
<sewn> hi sad_plan
<sad_plan> hi sewn
<sad_plan> how do you do?
<sewn> im burger
<sad_plan> a cheeseburger I hope
<sewn> with ONION!!!!!!!
<sad_plan> oh no, not onions :(
<midfavila> anyone here running will want to upgrade to 21.1.7
<sewn> y
<midfavila> security issue in upstream allows for privesc as a result of a dangling pointer being usable for r/w in free'd memory
<midfavila> CVE-2023-0994/ZDI-CAN-19596
<sewn> so good
<midfavila> i really do need to port xenocara to kiss at some point christ
<sewn> tinyx
<sad_plan> well shit. my desktop that almost never runs is susceptable to that
<midfavila> doesn't work with multiple displays
<sad_plan> ^
<sad_plan> doesnt it?
<midfavila> it does not
<sad_plan> damn
<midfavila> tinyx uses the kernel's framebuffer device directly which doesn't handle multiple displays
<midfavila> that's why you need separate kernel and X.Org drivers for your GPU
<midfavila> i wonder if whatever wayland does wrt: that could be ported into tinyx
<midfavila> part of the whole deal with wayland is that it doesn't need additional drivers right?
<sewn> hah im safe
<midfavila> my next PC will run tinyx either way
<midfavila> i'll just abuse virtual WMs or run multiple servers
<midfavila> fdjskhfiehfwehr9werhiwereywt8rgeyiowyr89we7griwegriwegrew this is one of those things i wish i was competent enough to work on-
<niceguy5000[m]> midfavila: can you create more dummy frame buffers?
<midfavila> not without fucking with the kernel
<midfavila> at least afaik
<niceguy5000[m]> is tinyx smaller than wayland?
<midfavila> that depends on what you mean by tinyx
<midfavila> tinyx itself is about 60k
<midfavila> but it still relies on the X11 ecosystem of libraries
<midfavila> which in turn pulls in python and its deps
<midfavila> because of fucking libx11 sitting atop libxcb
<sewn> why the fuck does libxcb require python
<midfavila> because it generates code during build time from an XML document that lays out a formal spec for xcb
<midfavila> or something like that iirc
<sewn> i thought it generates python bindings lol
<niceguy5000[m]> so velox is the most suckless display server?
<sad_plan> in regards to cloc, I suppose so
<midfavila> rio is
<sewn> there is nothing ever truly suckless niceguy5000
<sewn> it only just sucks less
<sewn> plan9
<midfavila> but i don't think suckless' philosophy is sound
<midfavila> valid, sure, but not sound
<sad_plan> how big is rio?
<sad_plan> and does it have any dependencies?
<sad_plan> never tried rio really
<midfavila> it's part of plan 9 so you just know they're cooming their brains out over it
<sewn> it depends on a brain
<sad_plan> hah, yeah
<midfavila> just finished reading ch13 of the art of unix programming, i think you would all find the book really interesting
<midfavila> bloat as a design problem is a huge focus point of the book
<midfavila> ch13 in particular talks about the different ways it can manifest and be combatted, and when it should be accepted
<midfavila> accidental, optional, and essential bloat, originating from poor design, from extra features, and from fundamental specification of the problem, respectively.
<sad_plan> I belive I have that book on my laptop iirc. its been on my todo list
<midfavila> uses ed, vi, sam, emacs and acme as case studies
<midfavila> sad_plan big recommend
<sad_plan> yeah
<midfavila> even if you don't have much CS or programming experience it's really interesting to compare the design culture of unix to IBM/PC/Amiga/etc systems
<sad_plan> ed was hard. I forced myself to edit some files the other day in ed.
<sad_plan> sure
<midfavila> ed is easy wth are you on about
<midfavila> only problem with ed is that you can't specify ranges within lines without regex
<sad_plan> well, once you figure out the commands, it was rather straight forward
<sad_plan> its just the commands that confused me at first
<sad_plan> or rather the controls
<midfavila> ed man! !man ed
<midfavila> ...i still need to make a shirt that says that
<sad_plan> theres lots of websites that can do that for you
<midfavila> nah i can just do it myself
<midfavila> i know someone with a shirt press
<sad_plan> or that
<sad_plan> cool
<midfavila> ye
<midfavila> but anyway i'd also suggest the unix programming environment
<midfavila> should make a mandatory kiss linux reading list
<midfavila> your bookshelf needs to be this full before you can ride
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<midfavila> going to strangle pidgin i swear to god
<midfavila> it crashes at the worst times
<sad_plan> I love me some crashes
<midfavila> i need to study asynchronous networking in C before I can write my IRC client, as I thought
<midfavila> but I need a desk to study properly and the guy who has my desk hasn't dropped it off yet ree
<sad_plan> did you buy a new one, or did someone borrow your desk?
<midfavila> my old desk a) fell apart when i moved my PC and b) had to be left behind when i moved because 1) too heavy and 2) after i bolted it back together i didn't want to risk it falling apart again
<midfavila> so yeah i bought a new one the other day
<midfavila> or, well, my old writing desk fell apart
<midfavila> my standing desk for my PC is still going strong but it's not really suitable for studying
<niceguy5000[m]> This is why you buy steel desk they never break.
<sad_plan> I see
<midfavila> unfortunately i'm a poor
<sad_plan> steel desks are really heavy though
<midfavila> you can also usually disassemble them
<sad_plan> sure, but theyre still really heavy.
<midfavila> better to be able to disassemble and move a steel desk in pieces than have a single 150lb slab of oak that you need five guys working in shifts to haul up and down stairs
<sad_plan> I have a steel workbench in my garasje, and I can bearly lift one side. and its not even that big
<midfavila> babby
<midfavila> smol, even
<sad_plan> yeah, its smol
<midfavila> no u
<midfavila> ur smol
<sad_plan> not dissasambleable either
<sad_plan> super smol
<midfavila> can't even lift a bench gosh
<sad_plan> like a kitten
<sad_plan> lol
<sad_plan> weak
<midfavila> oh yeah found this on NG this morning figured you guys might be into it
<sad_plan> ill check it out once webkit is done building
<midfavila> i can't wait until the day comes when i can remove pale meme from my system
<midfavila> i'll be one step closer to entering unix fundamentalist nirvana
<sad_plan> Im sure it comes one day after you removed it, and you find yourself needing it after all. due to the web being shite
<midfavila> nah
<midfavila> i have a handful of things i need to do before i can drop pale moon
<sad_plan> or not. time will tell
<niceguy5000[m]> The web standard is so bloated, what are you going to use?
<midfavila> links
<midfavila> i already use it for most of my day to day browsing
<sad_plan> do you regularly use the graphical mode, or nah?
<midfavila> yes, patched to support xembed so i can use it with tabbed
<sad_plan> yeah, I recall that being mentioned. never used the functionality myself, but I can see its usecase if links is your browser of choice
<niceguy5000[m]> you watch videos using mpv and youtube-dl(forks)
<niceguy5000[m]> * and youtube-dl(forks)?
<midfavila> no
<midfavila> youtube-dl and mpv are for nerds
<midfavila> i use links to fetch media and then links passes it to a plumbing script that hands it off to a relevant local program
<midfavila> in the case of video, audio and animated images that would be ffplay
<midfavila> invoked through another script, fpv
<midfavila> links->plumber->fpv->ffplay
<sad_plan> whats your beef with mpv and ytdl? or yt-dlp which is what most people use now that ytdl has stopped developement
<midfavila> i also have a branch in plumber to allow it to retrieve video from invidious directly using my invidious client invcli when it's provided a youtube or invidious link directly
<midfavila> ytdl or whatever it is now requires python
<midfavila> python is gay
<midfavila> mpv requires lua and doesn't add any features i care about on top of ffplay
<sad_plan> do you not have python at all? but sure, I can see the arguement
<sad_plan> not strictly, but to play straight from internet, it does need lua
<midfavila> the only things i have installed that use python are gdb and qemu, and that's only because this is my main workstation
<midfavila> on my laptop i don't have python at all
<sad_plan> in any case, if ffplay works, I dont see any reason to use mpv
<midfavila> ffplay can play straight from the internet without lua :^)
<sad_plan> nice
<midfavila> but yeah no my setup is basically just a pile of shell scripts
<midfavila> as ritchie intended
<niceguy5000[m]> what program downloads the video?
<sad_plan> I need to script more. even for trivial things
<niceguy5000[m]> does it just pipe to ffplay?
<midfavila> niceguy5000[m]: links in the case of browsing, whatever your http client is in terms of invcli
<midfavila> i need to rewrite apport again because i think the module-based design is an evolutionary dead end but it's already at a point where it can semi-consistently serve as the engine of invcli
<midfavila> i've also used it with curl, wget, aria2c and axel
<midfavila> sad_plan: if you need to do something more than twice, you should write a script to do it
<midfavila> you can also reduce the implementation complexity of your system by writing small scripts instead of using more featureful C/C++/whatever programs
<niceguy5000[m]> what torrent client do you use?
<midfavila> for example instead of using a daemon like f.lux to manage screen temps i have a script that uses a bc function to map the current time onto an inverse bell curve, which is then fed to brownout. that achieves the same effect with a fair bit less complexity
<midfavila> and i use btpd
<midfavila> (the script i wrote is invoked by my session's crond)
<sad_plan> midfavila: yeah I intend to write more scripts, aswell as actually learn C. but Im super slow to get there..
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<niceguy5000[m]> All I know is machine learning using python! I wonder if this is useful in UNIX programming /s.
<midfavila> someone in #Jobs suggested i learn python to get a job working with ChatGPT the other day
<midfavila> really had to bite my tongue on that one
<niceguy5000[m]> surely you know python? it'
<midfavila> i know enough to read it
<midfavila> once i wrote a portscanner in it
<niceguy5000[m]> it's like scratch with extra steps.
<midfavila> as fun as it is to meme on python, no, it's not that bad
<midfavila> it's not useless in general, it's just useless to me\
<midfavila> anything that i would want to do, i could do in scheme 9 or shell or c
<midfavila> agh i never realized just how much i depended on my laptop for prototyping stuff
<midfavila> since it broke i've done barely any programming because my regular workstation is so inconducive to actual work
<shokara_> "yes, patched to support xembed so i can use it with tabbed" do you mind sharing the patch?
<midfavila> it's not my work, just fyi
<midfavila> some dude on the net wrote it originally and i harassed him via email to update it
<midfavila> can't recall who precisely
<midfavila> well, if nothing else, i ought to work on apport more
<midfavila> i haven't touched it in like a month and a half
<midfavila> ugh
<midfavila> people are so nice on newgrounds ;w;
<midfavila> i'm having a civil conversation on Xt programming and Suckless software in the desktop thread rn
<midfavila> very cozy
<niceguy5000[m]> <midfavila> "some dude on the net wrote it..." <- lol.
* midfavila shrugs