ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
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<Torr> Ahoy
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<sewn> Hi
<testuser[m]123> Hi
<niceguy5000[m]> Hi!!!!
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<sewn> you seem excited
<davidgarland> hallo
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<sewn> hi davidgarland
<davidgarland> how goes it
<sewn> whar?
<davidgarland> lol
<sewn> what do you mean by 'what does it'?
<davidgarland> "how goes it" <=> "how's it going"
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<sewn> im burger
<davidgarland> hi burger
<sewn> what no
<davidgarland> yes
<sewn> i love titanfall
<davidgarland> I've never played it, maybe I should give it a try
<sewn> titanfall 2***
<davidgarland> saw some video talking about how they had to add some tool to make speedrunning it practical since there was some frame-perfect tech in a high framerate game
<davidgarland> and: ic
<sewn> i bought it like ages ago and playing it under kiss rn
<sewn> runs like shit though needs tons of shader caching
<davidgarland> nice
<davidgarland> and oh oof
<sewn> where did you get this video from testuser
<sewn> Where
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<midfavila> so hey fun biology fact
<midfavila> did you know that sometimes your salivary glands can spontaneously be blocked for no real reason,
<midfavila> and this can cause parts of your face to swell to alarming sizes within the course of seconds?
<sewn> when does it happen
<midfavila> whenever :D
<midfavila> usually before your thirties
<midfavila> for me it happened last night mid-supper
<sewn> does it hurt
<midfavila> not really
<midfavila> it's just kind of weird
<sewn> ok im fine
<midfavila> happened to me last night halfway through dinner
<midfavila> my lip looks like i got into a fight or something
<midfavila> lower lip's right third just bloated up to like three or four times its usual size and it's been sorta coming and going and it's weird and i don't like it and aa ;w;
<midfavila> i don't like biology
<midfavila> it's called a "mucocele"
<sewn> sounds awful
<midfavila> it does! but it's completely mundane and goes away on its own without treatment
<midfavila> in fucking
<midfavila> 4-8 weeks usually
<davidgarland> sorry you have to put up with that, that doesn't sound too pleasant even if it is harmless
<midfavila> that about sums it up
<midfavila> i hate it when bodies do body things
<midfavila> the thing that bugged me the most is that it came on in over the course of maybe five seconds
<midfavila> like i'm just sitting there enjoying my meal of lentil soup and them bam - looks like a bee had a tumble with my face
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<aelspire> Hi
<davidgarland> does any sort of allergic reaction or temperatue difference or something bring it on or is it just arbitrary
<davidgarland> *temperature
<davidgarland> and hallo aelspire
<aelspire> davidgarland: hi, new face here? Or I somehow missed You?
<davidgarland> sorta, sorta not
<davidgarland> I was here briefly like a few years ago and upped extra-cmake-modules on community, maybe asked a few questions, then disappeared
<davidgarland> came back and found it hadn't been updated since I left, then bumped it again lol
<aelspire> oh, thanks for your help
<midfavila> davidgarland nah, mucoceles are generally either brought on by trauma (not relevant) or something somewhere blocking a salival gland
<davidgarland> I see
<aelspire> I've found that Ubuntu is dropping support for flatpak
<sewn> for snap.
<midfavila> snapsnapsnapsnapsnapsnapsnap
<midfavila> cracklepop
<aelspire> how long it will take to every single distro have its own incompatible solution that other distros refuse to implement?
<midfavila> depends on what you mean by distro
<aelspire> oh, yes
<midfavila> if you use the definition that allows 200+ linux distros to exist, then very, very long
<aelspire> lets say main ones
<midfavila> if you use the sane definition, then it's already been a thing for a long time
<midfavila> i can't use a pacman package on kiss
<aelspire> no?
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> pacman isn't aware of the main repo
<aelspire> I've not tried to do such thing as it kinda not makes sense
<midfavila> if pacman and kiss step on each other's toes - boom
<aelspire> but why?
<midfavila> because what happens if pacman tries to install glibc on a musl system?
<midfavila> or what if it overwrites your version of llvm or gtk or $PACKAGE?
<aelspire> there shouldn't be anything hardcoded
<aelspire> repos are repos
<midfavila> system could easily break if there's a conflict between package managers is all i'm saying
<davidgarland> their dependency tracking doesn't communicate is the problem basically
<aelspire> but if You have own muslc repos and pacman is pulling from them
<midfavila> yes, yes, you could literally run pacman on kiss
<midfavila> just as you could literally run fucking anything on kiss
<midfavila> but you can't *really* run pacman on kiss
<midfavila> it's foreign
<midfavila> it's like saying you could technically run multiple inits at the same time
<aelspire> yes, so it makes no sense
<midfavila> yes but in the context of the original question it does
<aelspire> but somtimes you just want to see things burning for fun
<midfavila> i don't have the patience to deal with this
<midfavila> i just woke up like half an hour ago or something and i haven't had tea
<davidgarland> lol
<midfavila> can't wait until i'm competent enough to develop my own OS and I don't have to deal with retarded linux bullshit any more
<davidgarland> to humor you then, maybe you'd find something like bedrock linux interesting, I dunno how it works in detail but the whole idea of "what if I could just slap a bunch of distros together" is what they're after
<davidgarland> (@ ael)
<midfavila> yeah, you could use bedrock, or you could just use chroots
<midfavila> which afaik is basically what it does
<midfavila> but this implies that distros are somehow uniquely suited to one task and that a benefit can be had by combining them
<midfavila> in almost every case this is complete bullshit
<midfavila> anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about, and i'll fucking fight them on that
<davidgarland> yeah what you're saying sounds reasonable to me
<midfavila> sick and tired of the "buhmuhhubbuh DISTROS man!"
<midfavila> it's FUCKING unix
<davidgarland> lol
<midfavila> the end user literally will not care
<midfavila> unless they're a programmer, in which case they're not included in the scope of the discussion
<midfavila> because programmers are more willing to adopt the native system's interfaces and shit so that they can actually work
<midfavila> but to the end user it doesn't matter if it's freebsd ports, nbsd's package manager, apt, what the fuck ever
<midfavila> all these fucking redditors screaming about "reeeeeee muh repos" need to shut the fuck up and learn how to solve their own gd problems
<midfavila> you're competent enough to complain that there isn't a package for $OBSCURETECH, you're competent enough to learn to package $OBSCURETECH
<midfavila> people always tout the AUR as the killer feature of arch but how tf do you think it got there
<midfavila> agh i get so fucking angry over this shit
<midfavila> brb touching grass and breathing air
<davidgarland> xp
<davidgarland> you are preaching to the choir, at least somewhat-- I'll admit I don't mind having stuff already packaged for me, I'm mostly just here because I think the process of packaging stuff for kiss is a lot easier
<davidgarland> the "it's just a shell script and some text files in some git repos you can reorder" feels a lot nicer to work with
<midfavila> yeah no of course
<midfavila> i'm not saying having repos at all is bad
<midfavila> god knows i'm too lazy to write packages for things that require actual effort
<midfavila> unless i have to
<aelspire> apropos KISS package manager I've some weird idea
<midfavila> ...which i kind of do but shut up-
<midfavila> rather, what i'm saying is,
<davidgarland> xp
<midfavila> people who complain about problems without at least attempting to learn how to solve them for themselves are a fucking cancer
<aelspire> in depends file optional dependencies listed as: dependency optional
<midfavila> aelspire: if it's optional it's just not listed with a make
<midfavila> er
<midfavila> wait
<midfavila> no nvm ignore me
<aelspire> kiss just print them without doing anything before instalation
<midfavila> i'm still half asleep
* midfavila screams
<davidgarland> tea is a good thing
<aelspire> it makes sense?
<midfavila> no you're right
<midfavila> davidgarland: indeed it is
<aelspire> sometimes packages have some optional dependencies not required but nice to have
<midfavila> fiveminutesfiveminutesfiveminutesfiveminutesfiveminutes
* midfavila rocks back and forth
<davidgarland> ael: yeah, though the userbase of KISS is so small that in practice I think depends files get neglected depending on the package
<aelspire> hunting for them in makefiles/mesons/cmakes is a little problematic
<midfavila> the neglect of the depends file and its consequences has been a disaster for the kiss user race, i agree
<midfavila> it's why i've largely stopped using the community repo
<aelspire> and I dont want all ow that crap installed when I don't need it
<midfavila> the quality of many packages in it were/are(?) astonishingly low
<midfavila> so to anyone here who doesn't have the effort to write a package properly, i.e in line with the guidelines and with a properly filled-out depends, don't fucking submit it
<aelspire> thats actually expected?
<aelspire> no?
<midfavila> it *shouldn't* be
<midfavila> if you're going to write a package for yourself, sure, do whatever
<aelspire> this is not "pro" distoro and shouldn't be
<midfavila> if you're going to write a package that's for the benefit of the community and will be maintained by the community, not abiding by guidelines is lazy at best and antisocial at worst
<aelspire> even crappy package helps a lot
<midfavila> you're making it harder to maintain the package down the line
<aelspire> I can fork it in case of problems in my repo
<midfavila> but it shouldn't be a problem in the first place!
<midfavila> the community repo should strive to have the same quality controls as the core repo
<testuser[m]123> It doesn't that's why it's separate
<testuser[m]123> It should but that's too much work
<midfavila> while it's not official official in the sense of being endorsed by dylan it *is* still managed by the kiss-community account which afaik has taken over managing mainline again
<davidgarland> ael: idk it kinda seems to be by design, I get the vibe that the gatekeeping is intentional, or at least that it's justified by not wanting to encourage some common use-case instead of making all options equally viable
<aelspire> building barriers in community repo will probably destroy it and it will be left with git-bruh and owen maintaining everyhing
<davidgarland> for instance arch has no TUI installer for... really no reason, whereas something like void which also dumps you into the terminal does
<midfavila> >having basic standards will destroy the community repo
<midfavila> literally lmao
<midfavila> lol even
<aelspire> am I wrong?
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> yes you are
<aelspire> I thought that community is just dumpster for packages maintained by someone willing to do it regardless of quality
<midfavila> anyone who would be dissuaded from contributing to community based on the fact that there are basic quality control measures in place, which could be automated, wouldn't contribute anything of value
<aelspire> and repo is the curated one
<davidgarland> how do you systematically check/enforce proper depends files though? I think that the readelf mechanism can give false positives if you have an optional dep installed
<testuser[m]123> New packages can be vetted more thoroughly but there's a lot of cruft in existing packages that has to be cleaned up
<davidgarland> it's not smart enough to figure those out
<testuser[m]123> davidgarland: sandbox
<midfavila> afaik repo is just enough to get a minimum viable system as defined on the kiss site
<midfavila> community is the unofficially official repo
<midfavila> it's our AUR
<testuser[m]123> I was exploring that but got sidelined with other work
<midfavila> and even the AUR has basic QC
<aelspire> yup, the sandbox will help
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<davidgarland> so would you have, say, multiple sandboxes for every sort of common scenario? gkiss/kiss, wayland/xorg..?
<testuser[m]123> No
<midfavila> sure kiss isn't a """"""""""""""""""""pro"""""""""""""""""""" distro but that doesn't mean we oughtn't do things right
<aelspire> but opdepends + provides are nice to have too
<testuser[m]123> Sandbox as in pkg can only access files it actually depends upon
<davidgarland> oh
<davidgarland> I thought you meant like some kind of CI thing
<midfavila> CI could do it
<aelspire> I'm thinking it's about time to contribute to something related to KISS
<midfavila> if i had a static IP and the guts to do it i'd offer my machine's spare cycles to run CI on the repos
<aelspire> but I'm pretty sure that I will bork my patches firstly
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<midfavila> you will, your first time
<aelspire> being 100% POSIX compilant is pretty hard
<testuser[m]123> midfavila: sandbox (with provides system in place) is still better since it avoids random libs from tainting your package
<testuser[m]123> Like my free type harfbuzz depends on brotli
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<midfavila> i don't have an opinion on that
<testuser[m]123> cuz i hve it for android crap
<aelspire> yes, KISS "solves" runtime deps
<midfavila> if it improves the quality of packages go for it
<aelspire> but not make one
<midfavila> i'm strictly talking about the lack of QC on the community repo
<midfavila> as a community we ought to have packages that reflect our philosophy
<aelspire> but what about opdeps in sandbox
<testuser[m]123> That's gonna be handled by provides system
<aelspire> sandbox will make my idea much more revelant
<midfavila> that being one of clean, orthogonal design. KISS should have packages that reflect KISS' KISS ideology
<aelspire> provides?
<testuser[m]123> like llvm-all-targets for a zig package
<aelspire> but what about optional dependencies
<testuser[m]123> instead of making you fork llvm
<midfavila> are we still working on the C-based KISS?
<testuser[m]123> there won't be any optional deps cuz that's a terrible hack
<aelspire> so ones that will be autodetected and compilation will complete without them
<testuser[m]123> midfavila: we = me / phoebos and neither are working on it rn
<testuser[m]123> I'll get to it
<testuser[m]123> Eventually
<midfavila> i think if we're going to consider expanding the sophistication of kiss' dependency management we ought to use a language more powerful than shell just to ease the maintenance burden
<midfavila> and hey
<midfavila> once i'm not shit i'll help
<aelspire> just list them in depend file as dependency optional
<midfavila> i promise
<midfavila> ;w;
<midfavila> i'm just really bad with CS concepts
<midfavila> short of having extra hands i'd strictly be a detriment
<aelspire> sandbox will then detect if they are installed and if they are mount them too
<testuser[m]123> aelspire: that's still bad because you have to remember to install that stuff before building a package
<testuser[m]123> Provides will allow you to make pkg-fat variant that will explicitly depend on the optional deps
<aelspire> it depends
<aelspire> automating everything is not KISS philosophy
<aelspire> they are not required but I like to have some buttons in my mpv
<aelspire> so I need luajit
<testuser[m]123> Yeah so we make mpv-luajit package
<aelspire> hmm
<aelspire> thats valid too
<aelspire> ok, it makes sense
<midfavila> hmm
<midfavila> sure i can get down with that
<aelspire> many duplicated packages but with symlinks it is not big problem
<midfavila> well, not necessarily
<testuser[m]123> aelspire: we can automate the generation
<testuser[m]123> By making build file (obviously KISS only deals with the final script) a template and doing some macro hacks
<testuser[m]123> Many ways
<midfavila> if KISS community/core were to explicitly provide only the minimum viable for every package available, then individuals can split off from the community and benefit from upstream maintenance, and simply modify depends and some of the buildfile
<midfavila> hmm
<midfavila> you know
<aelspire> provides + sandboxed build and I would say kiss will leaps every other package manager existing
<aelspire> apt is brutally bad
<midfavila> i wonder if we could take advantage of patch and diff to produce tarballs every month or two to allow mass updating of KISS packages that don't strictly follow upstream
<midfavila> then again maybe the return on investment there wouldn't be especially high...
<midfavila> i wonder how many users actually deviate from upstream in a significant manner
<aelspire> not me
<davidgarland> define "in a significant manner"
<aelspire> I've forked like 2-3 packages
<aelspire> in my overrides
<midfavila> modifying or replacing core components or a significant number of community packages e.g greater than like, five
<testuser[m]123> sandboxed builds aren't perfectly 100% achievable though, sometimes transitive dependencies might taint the package, leading to the original issue
<testuser[m]123> But it works for 80% cases ig so it's a huge improvement
<aelspire> and have some unavailable packaged but this is not deviation
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<midfavila> testuser[m]123 you can use a release tarball and then strip all non-core packages after every build
<aelspire> 80% is huge improvement
<midfavila> would that not work?
<aelspire> 20% is diminishing returns
<midfavila> disagree
<midfavila> if it was 2% maybe
<midfavila> 20% is indicative of a potential flaw in the initial approach
<midfavila> at least i think so
<aelspire> yup, but those are not precise numbers
<midfavila> i've done something similar to what's being talked about before for my personal repo, just by hand
<testuser[m]123> , take this example
<testuser[m]123> package freetype-harfbuzz depends on Y, and Y has 2 variants, Y and Y-brotli
<testuser[m]123> Now if Y-brotli is installed, freetype-harfbuzz is gonna have access to brotli in sandbox and will enable brotli feature
<testuser[m]123> So to fully mitigate it we need to have sandbox + explicit configure/cmake/meson options (eg brotli=off, ...=off)
<testuser[m]123> Instead of relying on build system auto detection
<aelspire> or if dependency depends on something that builded packade depends too
<aelspire> it will compile even when this dependency is unlisted
<midfavila> are you talking about populating community with every possible permutation of a given package? at this point i'm not quite sure what your end goal is
<midfavila> i think providing one base package that others can spin off of is better
<aelspire> but solving such problems is huge tas
<schillingklaus> the way is the goal
<aelspire> s/tas/task/
<midfavila> no it's not, this isn't zen = w=
<testuser[m]123> It's to just provide one base package with explicit depends, and 1 extra provider package that serves a common use case that would otherwise be controversial to be the default
<testuser[m]123> Eg llvm will have llvm & llvm-fat package, latter enables extra targets that add 200mb+ to install size
<testuser[m]123> And zig will depend on llvm-fat
<midfavila> hmm
<midfavila> well, that's fine
<midfavila> as long as we don't get an exponential explosion in package count just to account for every possible spinoff
<testuser[m]123> And rustup (it allows you to setup rust bins) can be a provider for rust
<schillingklaus> don't give rust a chance
<testuser[m]123> The point is to avoid that fork + KISS_PATH order override mess
<testuser[m]123> sandbox will mainly be helpful for finding missing build dependencies
<testuser[m]123> Eg bash or perl
<aelspire> sounds good, but sandbox is able to handle so much mount points?
<testuser[m]123> avoiding library taints is secondary
<testuser[m]123> aelspire: landlock
<testuser[m]123> user namespaces would be inefficient
<testuser[m]123> Landlock has some quirks tho
<aelspire> landlock, I've not heard about it
<schillingklaus> missing dependencies are a problem for pkgsrc
<testuser[m]123> Gentoo had proposed an approach where they Mount squashfs images of packages but we can't rely on binaries existing on KISS
<testuser[m]123> better to use what's installed
<aelspire> I once had AUR package that shitted my home on Arch
<aelspire> so I'm all about sandboxing builds
<davidgarland> im gonna head to bed as it's 3AM here, goodnight
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<testuser[m]123> One downside of this would be that certain packages might get a bit fatter by default to avoid having 500 providers
<testuser[m]123> Instead of splitting into node-slightly-fatter
<aelspire> YAGNI - I would use it here
<aelspire> we need all possible variants?
<aelspire> but my idea of optional dependencies in depends makes it easier at the cost of less automation
<testuser[m]123> That's kinda hacky, like gentoo use flags but implicit
<testuser[m]123> and thats bad for maintainability
<aelspire> all solutions will have some cons
<aelspire> I like your idea too
<aelspire> a little fatter packages to provide sensible base is not too bad
<testuser[m]123> community repo needs a huge purge
<testuser[m]123> Half the packages are unmaintained
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<midfavila> pls
<aelspire> I was looking at the issue but it looks fishy
<schillingklaus> is dilyn or dylan responsible for that mess?
<midfavila> i don't even think dylan does kiss stuff any more
<midfavila> when we needed him most he vanished and was never seen again
<midfavila> ...except now he's back to maintaining neofetch and stuff
<aelspire> dylan?
<midfavila> araps yes
<aelspire> oooog
<aelspire> oooh*
<aelspire> so he is alive
<aelspire> good to know
<testuser[m]123> midfavila: he's been off 1+ yr
<testuser[m]123> Where did you see him
<midfavila> oh has he? it was my understanding he came back and kind of told people who were trying to get in touch with him off
<testuser[m]123> No
<midfavila> rip nvm then
<testuser[m]123> I hope he's ok
<midfavila> red hat got to him
<aelspire> they send assassin for the crime of not packaging systemd in his distro?
<midfavila> even as we speak he's building a computer out of lint and dead skin flakes in order to hack out of his overcomplex prison cell
<midfavila> soon, dylan jesus araps shall have His second coming
<testuser[m]123> Busybox runit also needs to be replaced with s6 stuff
<testuser[m]123> But s6 isn't as flexible due to being more robust
<midfavila> disagree
<testuser[m]123> i.e having explicit service deps
<midfavila> kiss' base should retain the use of busybox
<aelspire> but alternatives are: googlebox and too ascetic suckless tools
<testuser[m]123> busybox is more user friendly for 90% cases so yea i think it should be default
<testuser[m]123> it falls flat when you need stuff like logging or user services
<testuser[m]123> aelspire: not busybox as a whole
<testuser[m]123> Only runit
<aelspire> mhm
<midfavila> suckless tools aren't "too ascetic"
<testuser[m]123> the init part of it
<midfavila> legitimately don't get why people here say that
<aelspire> mid, bruh
<midfavila> i've been dailying suckless' userland for like two years
<midfavila> legitimate question
<aelspire> I installed normal less on my KISS install
<schillingklaus> googlebox? sounds like another corporate virus in the free software world
<aelspire> because i have color monitor capable of distplayin man in color
<testuser[m]123> Same
<aelspire> I not saying that they are useless
<aelspire> but sometimes suckless guys take things too far
<aelspire> schillingklaus: toybox
<schillingklaus> I use a suckless irc client
<midfavila> meh
<midfavila> soon we'll be able to switch kiss to midbase anyway :D
<aelspire> hareutils
<schillingklaus> toybox sounds better... Rob Landley is one of the leading forces in the musl world
<midfavila> isn't toybox also a hot mess
<schillingklaus> I guess it is called googlebox because it runs well on Android?
<midfavila> and doesn't it also not have a complete set of utils
<aelspire> I called it googlebox because it was created to make selhosting Android possible
<aelspire> and it was only reason behind its creation
<midfavila> when are we going to write a kiss kernel
<aelspire> but yet again, I'm not shitting or demean other people OSS projects except systemd
<midfavila> i am! fuck FAGMAN
<schillingklaus> a hard fork from 5.10, the last lts rustless kernel
<aelspire> I don't think rust will be common in kernel
<aelspire> I expect few drivers on less common archs
<aelspire> eg. ashai linux
<midfavila> need to make a KISS computer to run a KISS kernel
<midfavila> we're gonna fucking make it
<aelspire> KISS word to live in
<schillingklaus> or kiss kernel could depart radically from linux, as does hyperbola with its future openbsd-derived kernel
<aelspire> World*
<aelspire> giving up linux kernel is actually giving up shitton of drivers for less common HW
<testuser[m]123> Bruh why does everyone keep shifting on rust, C sucks for even semi-large programs
<aelspire> C doesn't suck
<aelspire> it has flaws, yes
<aelspire> but it doesn't suck
<testuser[m]123> No point in using C unless it's either a small program or target constraints
<testuser[m]123> goto cleanup
<aelspire> yup this is one flaw
<testuser[m]123> major flaw
<aelspire> and cast to void* in callback
<midfavila> schillingklaus: i intend to study operating system design so i can implement my own kernel
<testuser[m]123> rest is still ok like no generics
<midfavila> i would ideally write it in scheme
<aelspire> because lets disable type checking
<midfavila> implement POSIX or SUS on top of it
<aelspire> cast everything to void* even int
<aelspire> it will make code super generic
<midfavila> i *do* think that the idea of making the language runtime do more is the right approach - but i think that making the language runtime do more in *applications* is the wrong approach
<schillingklaus> kiss is favouring many small programs for specific purpose over monster programs which do-it-all-shabbily
<aelspire> if programmer made a mistake blame bad programmer
<midfavila> if you want to make a safer OS, you need to start at the kernel level
<midfavila> sure, the resulting system will be lower performance... but using more memory for a kernel is better than using more memory for a fucking calculator
<aelspire> he should be aware that in man there is written that on full moon phase this type changes to that one and write his program in correct way
<aelspire> but anyone that is saying C or Rust or even C++ sucks should try QML
<sewn> har
<sewn> e
<aelspire> after one afternoon with QML even C++ seems like good language
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<aelspire> midfavila: why not just join OpenBSD project?
<midfavila> too big, not what i want
<midfavila> i want a scheme kernel
<aelspire> everybody has they beloved lang here?
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<aelspire> scheme is compiled to bare metal?
<aelspire> is it possible with lisp?
<midfavila> uh, yes
<midfavila> it's already been done
<midfavila> multiple times
<midfavila> see: the OSes for the LISP machines, DreamOS, Mezzano
<midfavila> it's not like your only choices for writing OSes are C, C++, Rust, and assembly
<aelspire> I know next to none about any lisp
<aelspire> so pardon my ignorance
<midfavila> sounds less like lisp and more about OS design :p
<midfavila> but dw about it, it's not like i'm an expert or anything
<midfavila> no, plenty of OSes have been written in weird languages
<sewn> python
<midfavila> back in the before times, when you had actual choice as a computer user, OSes were written in everything from C to BCPL to Pascal to Oberon to Modula to assembler to Lisp and probably more
<midfavila> only reason C has become *the* language for OS implementation is because of Unix's proliferation
<aelspire> that was fun times
<aelspire> i remember foundly my C64 which I had when I was super young, so this is probably more of nostalgia
<aelspire> what was that lang? BASIC?
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> KERNAL itself is written in Z80 assembler or w/e though iirc
<aelspire> I was teached to type some command by my brother to run some games
<midfavila> LOAD 80,* or some shit
<midfavila> i've never used a C64
<midfavila> but i'm (vaguely) familiar with them
<schillingklaus> there is still no emacs lisp kernel
<midfavila> if you wrote an Emacs Lisp interpreter for x86-64 then you could literally run Emacs as an OS
<midfavila> of course you would need to write a scheduler and all that but you could do it
<aelspire> there is no need for sheduler
<aelspire> last time I've checked emacs was single threaded
<midfavila> do *you* want your entire OS to lock up because you're sending a 100gb file?
<midfavila> or be only able to use a single application at a time?
<midfavila> i don't
<midfavila> if you were going to implement an Emacs as an actual OS it would have to have a scheduler
<aelspire> Emacs is not my kind of thing
<aelspire> I've tried it but I cannot love it
<schillingklaus> do schedulers need to be in kernel space or is user-space scheduling possible, albeit poorly performant?
<midfavila> i wouldn't be qualified to answer the "is it possible" bit, but if it was, that's a fucking horrible idea
<aelspire> terrible idea
<aelspire> but
<midfavila> there's zero reason to ever put a scheduler in userspace
<midfavila> the entire *job* of the kernel is to manage resources, and part of that is scheduling
<aelspire> this is possible to make only bootloader ring 0
<aelspire> and whole kernel userspace, no?
<midfavila> dunno
<aelspire> but this is not sane idea
<aelspire> or whole userspace in ring 0
<aelspire> see: TempleOS
<midfavila> i mean, there's nothing wrong with pushing most of what's traditionally in kernelspace
<midfavila> that's just a microkernel
<midfavila> perfectly respectable idea
<aelspire> mid: buy STM32F7 something
<aelspire> with screen
<aelspire> it should be simple enought to play with idea of writting own OS
<midfavila> hmm
<aelspire> and no weird drivers to write
<midfavila> might, thanks for the suggestion
<midfavila> eventually i'd like to get to the point of using... one sec
<midfavila> i'd like to write an OS for the MTM Scientific PC Retro and study its schematics
<midfavila> it's a clone 5150
<midfavila> once i can write and understand OSes for the 5150 and similar, and I have a solid grasp of its schematics, I'm going to create my own version of the 5150, and then modify it over time to support (ideally) an m68k or similar chip
<aelspire> nucleo boards had schematics available
<aelspire> but it's just my opinion, If you are more into retro HW than this is not what you want
<midfavila> it's not about retro
<midfavila> i'm not a retroomer
<midfavila> it's about simple, sustainable, affordable technology that respects the end user
<aelspire> I have bunch of them so that was my first thought
* midfavila nod-nods
<midfavila> but yeah I'm 100% determined to create a 32-bit (or 64-bit really it's just flat address space and at least a few GB of RAM being addressable that matters) personal desktop computer under a libre license that uses common, cheap components and is easy to work with, complete with an OS written in a high level language with automatic memory management
<aelspire> ok so "common" is the main problematic point
<aelspire> as I said I've bunch of STM32's
<aelspire> but none 8086
<aelspire> many retro guys says the same thing
<aelspire> 8080 and "common"
<aelspire> and I literally need to break into computing museum to get this
<midfavila> not interested in x86
<midfavila> i want something big endian
<aelspire> but I'm pretty sure I'll find some STM32F104 digging in dumpster
<aelspire> RISC-V when?
<aelspire> can I ask why gettext and localization is removed from KISS linux?
<aelspire> it is not critique of this decision, I'm just want to know reason
<midfavila> english is the official and only language of KISS afaik
<aelspire> mhm, I'll need to package gtk4 and the whole ***mm suite or change my preferred torrent app
<schillingklaus> gettect is horribly bloated
<midfavila> use btpd :D
<schillingklaus> ermmm gettext ... and it involves even java
<aelspire> and I need to patch ATK, gettext and fribidi out
<midfavila> still kind of fat (~10k sloc of C) but it works well
<midfavila> at least i think it was around 10k
<midfavila> let me check
<midfavila> yeah about 10k
<aelspire> carbs use gettext-tiny which I already packaged:
<schillingklaus> there is something called gettext-tiny or similar, with a reasonable subset of functionality and less resource wasting
<schillingklaus> musl has probl;ems with l;ocalization in general
<aelspire> GUI on linux went bad
<aelspire> but I still prefer GUI than TUI
<aelspire> or pure CLI when it makes sense is prefered
<schillingklaus> no, I could never prefer GUI, undoer no condition whatsoever
<midfavila> aelspire: use Xaw
<aelspire> I would rather package this whole gtk4 than writte my own torrent app
<schillingklaus> torrent works perfectly with cli
<midfavila> if you want a gui then write a program to parse btpd's output and present it in a gui window
<midfavila> someone already is/did that for ncurses
<aelspire> wait wait wait
<midfavila> s/is/is doing/
<aelspire> I'm in progress of migrating to less bloated OS
<midfavila> and?
<aelspire> too much steps on the same time
<midfavila> please don't say that "gui is bloat"- oh
<midfavila> okay that's fair
<aelspire> I'm still trying to find alternative to thunderbird
<midfavila> xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh xmh
<aelspire> changing my whole workflow at once is too much and will make using my laptop unconfortable
<midfavila> you will use software that's literally from the 1980s and you will enjoy it
<midfavila> this is non-negotiable
<midfavila> :^)
<aelspire> I had fdm on my mind
<aelspire> but not sure about with what to mix it
<schillingklaus> mailx + mpop + msmtp here
<midfavila> as it stands i just ssh into sdf when i wanna check my mail
<schillingklaus> ncurses is more bloated than netbsd's curses. Unfortunately, not even on netbsd i can do completely without ncurses
* midfavila laughs in being more based than klaus
<aelspire> I've monitor capable of displaying pixels
<midfavila> i do agree with aelspire here though
<aelspire> no TUI until I found all alternatives bad
<midfavila> when you already have the overhead of a GUI you really should just take advantage of it
<midfavila> spinning up piles of terminal emulators to run "minimal" text-based programs is silly when an equivalent GUI would use less memory
<aelspire> pure CLI is completly different story
<aelspire> as I can fudge GUI even in python
<midfavila> not from an efficiency standpoint
<midfavila> xterm or st both use about 10-15mb of RAM just sitting there
<aelspire> or with dmenu/fuzzel/bemenu
<schillingklaus> one terminal emulator is sufficient, if it runs tmux
<aelspire> I like pure CLI
<midfavila> >runs windowing system
<midfavila> >in this windowing system, run a single terminal emulator
<midfavila> >in this windowing system running in a terminal emulator running under a windowing system, run CLI or curses programs because "muh minimalism"
<midfavila> dude
<midfavila> just use the console at that point
<schillingklaus> most of the time i work on the virtual console, anyways.
<midfavila> i think the best approach to software is to present its internal state using a pseudofs
<midfavila> and then write separate programs to provide an interface
<midfavila> so you can get your ed-style prompt, your vi-style full screen display, or an emacs-style X11/Wayland/whateverthefuck GUI
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> so CLI is much better than TUI
<schillingklaus> emacs works perfectly on the virtual console, no need for gui
<midfavila> the underlying engine can be written in POSIX C and then the frontend can be written in whatever other language or toolkit you want, and can have as many extra features as you'd like, without bloating the underlying engine
<midfavila> schillingklaus: that's bullshit
<midfavila> emacs can't process meta in the virtual console
<midfavila> don't lie to me
<midfavila> >:C
<midfavila> you need to use esc
<midfavila> or rebind it
<aelspire> kakoune has something like background session
<schillingklaus> there's nothing wronhg with using esc
<aelspire> so it can have multiple windows connected to this session
<aelspire> I'm using this often
<midfavila> there's everything wrong with using esc if i'm reaching for it every other minute
<midfavila> yes let me move my entire fucking arm instead of a finger
<aelspire> so I can have my editor spread on 2 monitors
<aelspire> and as many windows as I want
<aelspire> even on different workspaces
<aelspire> some programmer bind esc to quit on app I'm working on in my dayjob
<aelspire> and was responsible for many my frustrations
<aelspire> but I managed to convince my boss to remove this feature
<aelspire> imagine it: you are testing changes, write something in text field and your hand automatically goes and press ESC
<aelspire> and bam
<aelspire> you need to start whole test from scratch
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<phoebos> o/
<aelspire> little quiet here, isn't it?
<rfaa> heyo, how you all doing?
<aelspire> fine, thank you
<aelspire> and you?
<rfaa> I'm alright, thank you! compiling firefox on my shitty laptop, probably going to be done tomorrow perhaps :|
<aelspire> 45 minutes on i5 with 12 GiB RAM
<aelspire> not bad actually considering alternatives…
<aelspire> but web is lost cause
<rfaa> hehe that's a bit better than my amd e-450 with 8gigs of ram
<rfaa> have to unset the KISS_TMPDIR to compile it
<aelspire> using lower number of threads helps too
<rfaa> really?
<aelspire> yes
<rfaa> seems a bit odd, no?
<aelspire> why?
<aelspire> running mutliple compiler processes takes number of processes x ram usage of ram
<aelspire> using less compiler processes will use less ram
<rfaa> ah right, was thinking more threads would be able to utilize the cpu better
<aelspire> if you are not using something like pipes of tmpfs
<aelspire> well
<rfaa> i am using tmpfs, could try lowering the threads
<aelspire> using less threads make using computer during compiling possible
<aelspire> so it will take longer but it will run in background
<aelspire> wait wait
<aelspire> i had RAM usage on my ming
<rfaa> not really doing anything important on this old thing anyway so it's fine :) as long as i can use a few terminals with kirc and helix
<aelspire> helix user?
<aelspire> hello from kakoune land
<rfaa> yeah, switched from nvim a few months ago
<rfaa> it had a great setup for rust from the get go and it's actually usable on my machine
<aelspire> just before GNOME 40 happened I was on vscode and GNOM
<aelspire> dark times
<rfaa> haha
<rfaa> vscode is alright though, use it at work from time to time
<aelspire> after this I've tried emacs, neovim and kakoune by chance
<aelspire> I've tried helix some time after
<rfaa> but back to kakoune now?
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> migrating my fine-grained dotfiles is pain in ass
<aelspire> and helix is not enought game changer for me to find motivation do to so
<rfaa> yeah i can imagine
<rfaa> i use pretty much the default settings for helix
<rfaa> added a shortcut to compile but that's it
<aelspire> 1528 lines of kakoune script
<aelspire> according to tokei
<aelspire> 224 are written by me
<rfaa> what's your most useful kakoune script?
<aelspire> automatic following links under cursor in gemtex
<aelspire> I've something like my personal wiki with notes and todos
<aelspire> in gemtext
<aelspire> and I'm using links there
<aelspire> so "gu" goes to where link points
<aelspire> or maybe it is opening terminal with fzf of files in current project?
<aelspire> I've it binded to F2
<aelspire> so i hit F2 and type file name doing a lot of typos and fzf does fuzzy search
<rfaa> that's nice, the last one with fzf is included by default in hx, space + f
<rfaa> use it a lot
<aelspire> yup
<aelspire> it was the thing I borrowed from vscode
<aelspire> I like this workflow a lot
<rfaa> hey btw, is there an easy way to lower the number of threads for kiss when building things like firefox?
<aelspire> export CFLAGS?
<aelspire> no?
<aelspire> kiss has hooks
<rfaa> aha, yeah i could try that
<aelspire> maybe it is possible to slam it there but I've never find myself in situation where I needed to use hook yet
<aelspire> so I know nothing about kiss hooks
<rfaa> will have to try it for the next firefox or rust update
<rfaa> either CFLAGS or unset KISS_TMPDIR
<aelspire> hmm
<aelspire> I don't think pre-build hook can change build environment
<rfaa> that's a shame :( would love to just be able to do kiss U without manually doing stuff for rust/firefox
<aelspire> so overriding build script will be required I think
<rfaa> forking the package?
<aelspire> leave everything symlinked to original package expect build script
<aelspire> and add export CFLAGS on the top of build script
<aelspire> with correct flags
<phoebos> note that CFLAGS has nothing to do with multithreaded builds
<aelspire> oh yes
<aelspire> my bad
<rfaa> hm maybe i could create a symlink to the real build script with another name and simply execute it from the new build script?
<aelspire> MAKEFLAGS
<rfaa> ah right
<phoebos> rfaa: some people have used pre-build hooks to dynamically rewrite the build script
<phoebos> hooks used to be sourced :/
<aelspire> I though so
<rfaa> i can't include a patch file to the build script right?
<aelspire> why hooks are not sourced anymore?
<testuser[m]123> Cuz it's terrible
<testuser[m]123> Need to investigate a better mechanism
<testuser[m]123> That's for the C rewrite no sane way in sh
<aelspire> C rewrite is still on the table?
<aelspire> landlock seems something hard to implement in shell
<aelspire> but I've read about it and it seems insanely good
<aelspire> what are downsides you wrote about?
<aelspire> I starting to wish all apps will use landlock/pledge on BSD
<testuser[m]123> aelspire: it's doesn't cover 100% syscalls
<testuser[m]123> access() can still be used on all files
<testuser[m]123> Which is bad for anything having TOCTOU bug
<testuser[m]123> Nothing major
<testuser[m]123> Also exceptional file enumeration isn't possible i think
<testuser[m]123> Eg hiding non accessible files/dirs when enumerating a dir
<aelspire> well, app should know better which files it going to use
<testuser[m]123> I don't think you can even enumerate dirs if you block access
<testuser[m]123> Forgot the details
<aelspire> checking all of them and hidding undesired ones seems like much more problematic solution
<testuser[m]123> Yeah it's no major issues
<aelspire> culture of using landlock everythere will lead to much more secure system
<aelspire> everywhere*
<aelspire> but from what I'm understanding it is for app restricting its own access to only subset of OS
<aelspire> it is not possbible to use it to restrict other process
<aelspire> but should work for child
<aelspire> ehh, humanity is doomed
<aelspire> gemini was created to escape web which have broken infinite scope feature creep problem
<aelspire> lets cram everything into gemini client
<aelspire> let if render pdf's and play videos
<aelspire> s/if/it/
<aelspire> is it trolling?
<drez> web can be non-bloated
<drez> sgml gets too little credit
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<Torr> Hey
<midfavila> aelspire: they should have just used gopher tbqh
<midfavila> creating another new protocol to do the same job fundamentally is exactly the sort of problem that has made the web what it is today
<midfavila> and, honestly, the internet more broadly
<aelspire> midfavila: I find gopher less usable than gemini, mainly becouse predefined types being outdated as hell
<aelspire> gemini is what I like
<midfavila> gopher is literally fine
<midfavila> stfu nerd
<midfavila> >:c
<midfavila> my obscure internet protocol is better than your obscure internet protocol
<aelspire> spartan
<midfavila> gay and fake
<aelspire> I had perfect XKCD for this situation
<midfavila> le epic 115 iq let's make one protocol that solves everyone's problem comic.png
<midfavila> fucking hate xkcd
<midfavila> it's one step above the big bang theory
<aelspire> no it was about subcultures dividing until there is nothing do divide anymore
<midfavila> eugh
<aelspire> but that's fine IMHO
<aelspire> life should be fun
<aelspire> computing should be fun
<aelspire> if word would be forced to use one true OS it wouldn't be linux probably
<aelspire> so I accept full diversity of this subculture with all its cons
<aelspire> someone likes emacs, someone likes vim, and there is mid using ed
<midfavila> i use emacs and xedit sometimes
<midfavila> but yes ed is the one true text editor and if you disagree you're wrong and i'll fight you in the mcdonald's parking lot after class
<aelspire> cool, they opened mcd in my city recently
<midfavila> unlucky
<aelspire> maybe city is wrong word
<midfavila> walmart will be next
<aelspire> I don't think so
<midfavila> you never do
<midfavila> but it always is\
<midfavila> then all the based small town local businesses will die because nobody can compete with walmart
<midfavila> and before you know it the only place to shop will be your local Supercenter:tm:
<aelspire> here we have marked dominated by german "Lidl"
<midfavila> helping you Save Money Every Day:tm:
<aelspire> anyone tried to use graphic tablet on KISS and sway?
<aelspire> is it hard task?
<midfavila> i can't see it being hard
<midfavila> my convertible's touch screen worked out of the box with the standard x11 mouse driver so
<aelspire> hmm, I hope so
<aelspire> I totally forgot about it
<midfavila> i'm sure the basic features will work at least
<sewn> #kisslinux is so active today wow
<sewn> I think
<midfavila> meh not super active
<aelspire> anyone here has hobbies non related to computing?
<midfavila> i used to be pretty into combat sports
<midfavila> been considering picking that back up
<aelspire> oooh
<midfavila> i kind of sort of not really lift sometimes
<aelspire> that's cool
<midfavila> need to do that more
<midfavila> in the warmer months i bike and go for walks a lot, going to pick up hiking
<midfavila> i used to do woodworking, need to pick that back up. i'd like to take night classes on leatherworking and clothworking at the local craft college as well
<aelspire> I do a little bit of 3D graphics and bike related things
<midfavila> i'm too poor to buy decent quality furniture and equipment so I figure I can just make it :V
<midfavila> and hey 3D graphics stuff is cool
<midfavila> i've considered doing some CAD work
<aelspire> I'm more into art style than CAD
* midfavila nod-nods
<midfavila> I've also considered picking up sketching
<midfavila> and basic modelling skills too
<aelspire> but I have tendency to pick too much side projects so nothing ever is finished
<midfavila> my problem is that i just have no energy
<midfavila> for like
<midfavila> anything
<aelspire> yes that too since I have son
<aelspire> but maybe in future I'll have more time
<midfavila> i'm just insanely stressed about everything all the time lmao
<midfavila> my diet is shit too
<midfavila> that and i don't exercise nearly enough
<aelspire> lack of exercise and irregular sleeping schedule usually causes lack of energy
<midfavila> you're telling me :P
<midfavila> fortunately my sleep is slowly improving
<midfavila> i used to go literally days without sleeping
<aelspire> really?
<midfavila> my record was twelve days
<midfavila> probably fucking destroyed my brain
<aelspire> I cannot imagine more than 2 days
<midfavila> yeah well neither could I after the first 24 hours :D
<midfavila> couldn't imagine shit
<midfavila> insomnia is hell
<aelspire> indeed
<midfavila> of all the mundane conditions in the world, the two i wouldn't wish on anyone are insomnia and ingrown toenails
<midfavila> they both fuck you over in so many subtle ways
<aelspire> insomnia is mudane?
<midfavila> in the sense of it not being like
<midfavila> you know
<midfavila> literally cancer or something
<midfavila> at least where i live insomnia is seen as kind of a common condition
<midfavila> insomnia, being overweight, catching the cold, these are all "mundane" here
<aelspire> mhm
<midfavila> i guess another way to define it is that it's not socially awkward to talk about those things?
<aelspire> yup that's probably it
* midfavila shrugs
<aelspire> midfavila: Are you considering 3D modelling in suckless way?
<aelspire> is there suckless way?
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<midfavila> i saw a guy on invidious who wrote his own set of CAD tools from scratch
<midfavila> they're all standalone like traditional unix tools and use xlib directly afaik
<midfavila> it's like a 60+ part series
<aelspire> that't true dedication to craft
<midfavila> yeah it's p good
<aelspire> blender is non-negotiable bloat for me
<aelspire> I need to package it for KISS somehow sometime in far far future
<aelspire> I'm using flatpak currently
<sewn> kiss-xor-
<midfavila> >packages the entirety of ubuntu to run blender
<midfavila> >refuses to elaborate
<midfavila> >leaves
<aelspire> he he he
<midfavila> yes i'm hilarious
<midfavila> cranking out internet funny after internet funny
<aelspire> to tell the truth thunderbird looks much worse to package
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<midfavila> completely unrelated but i need to tell someone about this
<midfavila> i bought the weirdest thing today
<midfavila> cashews in white chocolate infused with coconut and fucking
<midfavila> curry powder
<midfavila> but they taste amazing
<midfavila> and it's *so weird*
<aelspire> like chocolate with chili
<aelspire> weird but acutaly tastes great
<midfavila> yeah
<aelspire> but curry powder?
* midfavila nod-nods
<midfavila> the cashews are like
<midfavila> fucking
<midfavila> yellow :v
<midfavila> idk if i'll get them again, or at least super often, given they're like 16.50 a pound
<midfavila> but they're tasty and aren't, you know, completely disgusting for you
<aelspire> wait a bit
<aelspire> I'm doing math
<aelspire> 16.5 per pound
<aelspire> CAD $?
<midfavila> yeah
<midfavila> about 35 a kilo
<midfavila> so
<midfavila> :v
<midfavila> i just got a little tin of them today
<aelspire> holly fuck
<midfavila> holly fuck indeed
<aelspire> some premium brand or what?
<midfavila> nope
<midfavila> made locally
<midfavila> food is just insane where i live
<midfavila> if i can get a better job soon then it won't be as much of an issue, but as it stands i probably spend 5-600$ a month on food, and it's not like i'm eating steak every night or anything
<midfavila> i buy primarily from small general stores and the farmer's market
<aelspire> I hate my country politics but holly fuck that prices of food
<aelspire> you could live comfortably here with what you spend on food
<aelspire> and about politics - we do not fucked so hard as UK
<aelspire> yet
<midfavila> i make about 2000CAD a month and after food, rent, a bus pass, and bank fees i have maybe 250$ left a month
<midfavila> it's pretty shit
<midfavila> i still have to pay telecomms with that too, which leaves around 150
<aelspire> I'm making about 3000 EUR per month
<midfavila> jfc i wish i made that
<aelspire> and don't feel like it is a lot
<midfavila> that's like 6-7k CAD
<midfavila> at least according to the last time i checked exchange
<aelspire> but it is actualy 3x what normal person is making
<midfavila> that's almost six figures here
<midfavila> actually it might be six figures
<midfavila> well, no, close
<midfavila> but still solidly middle class
<midfavila> most people where i live are living paycheck to paycheck
<aelspire> here the same
<midfavila> on 3k euro? i mean i guess if you're the main income for a family that makes sense
<midfavila> but if i made that i'd be living life on easy mode man :v
<aelspire> I'm actually rich bastard in my country
<midfavila> yeah i was going to say
<aelspire> my wife isn't making this much
<midfavila> most people don't make 6-7k CAD a month even over here :p
<midfavila> that'd be 1615CAD a week on the high end
<midfavila> which is uh
<midfavila> almost as much as a minimum wage worker (most people) make in a month
<midfavila> (most people in my area to be clear)
<aelspire> I've lot of luck and I'm aware of it
<aelspire> I was pretty passionate about programming since I was 13
<midfavila> i think i could be in a similar position had my parents not completely fucked me in every way possible
<aelspire> and choose master in electronics and I'm specialist in embedded programming (not doing bare metal nowadays)
<midfavila> i went into kindergarten at age four being able to program in lua
<midfavila> :D
<midfavila> so i guess that was a thing
<midfavila> and now i just kind of wake up, scream, die and go back to sleep
<midfavila> and hey that's pretty cool
<midfavila> i have a textbook on electronics engineering kicking around here somewhere, and another on wireless and radio theory
<aelspire> yup that thing
<midfavila> i'd like to get to the point where i can sit down and just... build stuff to solve my problems
<midfavila> nothing crazy
<midfavila> electronic alarm clock, basic wristwatch, calculator, that sorta thing
<aelspire> pretty fun projects
<midfavila> yeye
<midfavila> as i'm sure you've seen me sperg before, my most ambitious project would be to build a fully libre desktop computer on par with a 90s high-end PC
<midfavila> but that's like
<midfavila> a lifelong goal
<aelspire> actually it is doable in much shorter timeframe
<midfavila> you think so?
<midfavila> keep in mind that my mathematics skills are literally ninth grade level :v
<aelspire> I'm not thinks so I know it
<midfavila> well, hey, fair enough. you're the embedded engineer
<aelspire> one of project on master my University was joined project to build computer
<midfavila> basically a slightly more modern equivalent of the pc532
<midfavila> oh?
<aelspire> including writting CPU in verilog
<midfavila> tell me more
<aelspire> And I've written some super simple CPU in verilog
<aelspire> you need some sane ASM lang, what my university provided was not sane at all
<midfavila> yeah no of course
<aelspire> to build CPU
<aelspire> and CPU is acutally dead simple thing
<aelspire> you have arithmetic-logiv unit
<midfavila> honestly, while I'll work on making components myself for the experience, I'll probably just use existing designs where I can
<aelspire> program counter register - it points to current instruction in memory
<aelspire> you jumps by writting to it
<aelspire> and registers, more the better
<aelspire> and memory
<midfavila> and yeah I'm vaguely aware of what makes up a CPU. ALU, PCU, a few general purpose registers, maybe a few registers with special purposes, some pins for I/O...
<midfavila> s/PCU/PCR/
<aelspire> rest is instruction decoder which put active logic signal on correct lines in correct clock cycle depending on instruction poinded by program counter
* midfavila nod-nods
<aelspire> and the rest of computer just reacts to things you write to its memory
<midfavila> actually, I bet my textbook on electronics engineering has a section on CPU design...
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> i should dig it out at some point
<midfavila> it's 20 years old but i imagine the fundamentals don't change
<aelspire> thats pretty simple project but don't expect any performance from it
<aelspire> 4 guys managed to do it in year
<aelspire> going to classes
<aelspire> If I can suggest something
<aelspire> here is something like fantasy console
<aelspire> with pretty simple and sane ASM
<aelspire> and even few programs and games implemented already to test design
<midfavila> oh i've seen that
<midfavila> it's pretty cool
<aelspire> this as CPU, grab some display
<midfavila> well, that you say it's possible for a team of grad students to do in a year is... a slight comfort
<aelspire> and it would be cool PC
<midfavila> maybe :p
<midfavila> what I really want is a big-endian RISC processor with at least a 32 bit wide width on its registers and etc so i can address at least 4gb without bank switching or anything
<aelspire> well
<aelspire> the project I'm talking about was 8-bit
<midfavila> something something glue four of them together
<midfavila> what could go wrong
<midfavila> :V
<aelspire> I'm not sure how much scale changes for full CPU
<midfavila> well, i'm sure i'll find out eventually
<midfavila> i figure a risc processor would help control complexity a lot
<aelspire> designing PCB for modern RAM is fun
<midfavila> oh, memory is another thing i'm not sure about
<midfavila> i need to look into the practical differences between dram and sram more
<midfavila> not to mention ecc and how that all works...
<aelspire> SRAM retains memory
<aelspire> DRAM need to be read periodically or it forgets
<aelspire> there is usually some kind of controller which does it so it shouldn't be different from the outside
<midfavila> yeye
<midfavila> yeah i've seen that
<aelspire> had you seen this?
<aelspire> cool
<midfavila> my main concern is to keep overall implementation simple, even if it ends up being expensive... although, of course, if it's too expensive, that's obviously a no-go
<midfavila> in terms of the "quality, speed, cost" triad, i'm more interested in quality and cost
<aelspire> I thought so, somewhat KISS Linux is so niche that sometimes I'm thinking that we all here are really similar
<midfavila> i don't care if it takes me ten gd years to design and build a decent working libre desktop computer, it's going to fucking happen
<midfavila> and yeah, sometimes i'm guilty of that too :p
<aelspire> better hurry up mid
<aelspire> you are losing internet points when somebody did it before You
<Ellowee[m]> >arm
<aelspire> yup
<Ellowee[m]> >epen soros
<aelspire> RISC-V is way to go
<Ellowee[m]> no rv/free software
<aelspire> so mid still have the chance
<Ellowee[m]> Rv is way to go, yes
<aelspire> but I don't think we are far off
<Ellowee[m]> I just want a 15" laptop that doesn't try to either destroy itself or phone home
<aelspire> I would prefer something like nettop
<aelspire> laptop screen will degrade with time
<aelspire> keyboard will break
<midfavila> laptops are FUCKING GAY
<midfavila> they're antithetical to the idea of end user freedom
<midfavila> intrinsically
<aelspire> well
<aelspire> yes and no
<midfavila> no
<midfavila> you're wrong
<midfavila> they're hostile to end users
<midfavila> i will die on this gd hill
<aelspire> I'm not going to toilet with my PC
<aelspire> so much for freedom ;)
<midfavila> by virtue of needing to be portable and small you *have* to use miniaturized components
<midfavila> which means you can't easily fix stuff at home
<aelspire> no?
<midfavila> even older designs that were quite a bit chunkier were still fairly hard to work on, with the exception of, say, thinkpads, at least afaik
<aelspire> I've fixed few laptops
<midfavila> and you're also a literal engineer, to be fair :v
<aelspire> but yes sometimes it is not worth
<aelspire> yup
<midfavila> as a practically-NEET it's not worth it ever for me to try and fix a modern laptop
<midfavila> even just getting the parts is too expensive
<midfavila> like, a keyboard for my CF-C2 convertible toughbook, right? it's half the cost of an entire refurb'd machine
<aelspire> yes that custom parts are thought
<midfavila> not to mention i'd need to take apart like, half the fucking thing to install the new keyboard
<aelspire> I can fix fan, solder capacitors
<midfavila> if I *did* make a laptop, it would be more like a luggable
<aelspire> fix power plug
<aelspire> but screen or keyboard - no go
<aelspire> so something like nettop is sane desing
<aelspire> this + LiPo pack + touchscreen
<aelspire> and we have caveman tablet
<aelspire> plug 24' monitor, keyboard and mouse if you use one and you have PC
<aelspire> with ATX tower tablet wariant will make You look weird on the street
<midfavila> nah i'm thinking a late period luggable early period laptop
<midfavila> you know, with a small luggable-style chassis that has a fold up front
<midfavila> hides a keyboard in a little crevice that connects via a jack or plug or w/e
<aelspire> I think I've seen photos of it
<midfavila> something like that would be the most laptop-y i'd go without making compromises
<midfavila> if i had to go small, i'd go really small
<midfavila> i'd like to design a PDA for example
<midfavila> little handheld system kind of like the old Zaurus PDAs
<aelspire> I'm looking on the old luggable computers
<midfavila> slap a Unix on there, give it a 3.5mm headphone jack, USB, removable battery pack, stylus slot, resistive touch, slideout keyboard and media controls, VGA e-ink screen, micro SD, and like
<aelspire> that old keyboards was the true art
<aelspire> this laptop something is thing I hate
<midfavila> I guess a CF slot or something for expansion
<midfavila> and that's honestly my ideal device
<midfavila> ...well, and ath9k wireless
<aelspire> ath9k?
<aelspire> I don't have it
<aelspire> but I think my best one spare without use is DHXA-195
<aelspire> oh
<aelspire> it uses ath9k driver
<aelspire> I understand now
<midfavila> yeye
<midfavila> sorry, i only know some software, not much about hardware
<aelspire> ok, going sleep
<aelspire> bye
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<midfavila> nini
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<sad_plan> hi
<Torr> midfavila: If u're looking into how to fix laptops, check Sorin's channel:
<Torr> Hey sad_plan
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<phoebos> midfavila: how's the new desk
<midfavila> it's very desklike
<phoebos> also
<midfavila> has space for some of my books and all of my stationary which is nice
<phoebos> ben eater on yewtube makes interesting videos
<phoebos> nice
<midfavila> unfortunately i've been too busy to make use of it over the past few days
<midfavila> lots and lots of errands to run
<midfavila> was out from 0730 until 1700 today
<phoebos> how come?
<phoebos> me too. i've had early morning meetings, then lectures, then been rehearsing for/playing in a musical in the evenings
<midfavila> needed to check a few places for a blender, a compass and a washboard, because i've had no luck finding either outside of big box stores, which i refuse to shop at. needed to bitch at my ISP to stop FUCKING crank-calling me seven times a day. needed to stop at a few places to pick up groceries. went out for breakfast. stopped in at city hall to inquire about services and prices and to get a map. also stopped in at a few places to ask
<midfavila> if they were hiring
<midfavila> there's this one security startup that i've been interested in - they do programming work and stuff as well - and i stopped in there today. there was a lady at reception along with some dude, and the lady was nice enough and explained that they actually do all their hiring online now, but the dude lasered holes into my skull the entire time i was there and tried to show me out of the building halfway through my conversation
<midfavila> not like it's a high security location, they have a few different entrances and none are locked
<midfavila> that kind of pissed me off
<midfavila> oh, and i visited a few friends
<phoebos> ooh. maths compass or nav compass
<midfavila> nav
<midfavila> the *one* thing i regularly use my phone for when i have it on me is its compass program
<midfavila> go figure
<phoebos> paired with a map?
<midfavila> yes
<phoebos> gotcha
<midfavila> i'm a luddite like that
<midfavila> i do want to get a compass for geometry though
<midfavila> i have one, but it's a junky dollar store model
<phoebos> geometry is fun. i loved drawing the shapes when working through euclidean stuff
* midfavila nod-nods
<midfavila> you might be interested in a book called basic geometry then. it's supposedly a revolutionary way to teach euclidean geometry, at least compared to the standard in american schools
<midfavila> not to imply you have a poor grasp of geometry, i've just heard really good things about it :p
<midfavila> some of the questions are pretty funny too
<midfavila> one of them asks you when the optimal time to beat the shit out of twits in the classroom is, and to provide logically sound arguments for each possibility. i think that's in the first chapter
<phoebos> might be quite therapeutic
<phoebos> lol
<midfavila> nothing too hard, but certainly amusing to see in a grade school mathematics textbook
<phoebos> the other day i was formally introduced to riemann geometry
<midfavila> what's a rye man
<midfavila> :thoinking:
<phoebos> in the context of general relativity
<midfavila> ah yes i understand completely now
<midfavila> einstein was the rye man
<phoebos> 🎵 Never gonna make you rye 🎵
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