BtbN changed the topic of #ffmpeg to: Welcome to the FFmpeg USER support channel | Development channel: #ffmpeg-devel | Bug reports: https://ffmpeg.org/bugreports.html | Wiki: https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ | This channel is publically logged | FFmpeg 7.0 is released
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<ManDay> Adventures with ffmpeg documentation, day 4... Does anyone know how to realize a cyclic chain? I try with an overlay into which I feed its own output and I just get an error on the succeeding split "Picture size 0x0 is invalid"
<ManDay> (even if I prepend it with a `pad`!)
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<ManDay> Just to be clear:
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<ManDay> filters documentation says: "A filtergraph is a directed graph of connected filters. It can contain cycles" with no further explanation whatsoever, and ffmpeg documentation says: "a cycle in the transcoding pipeline [is] not allowed."
<ManDay> Documentation: 5/5 stars
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<ManDay> Can anyone get this to work?
<ManDay> color=gray:320x240 [c]; [b] pad=320:240 [p]; [c][p] blend=multiply,split [b][out]
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<ManDay> I suspect if it's true that cycles are supported and (apparently) not handled naively, it requires additional elements like setpts, but no matter what I can't get it to work.
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<Traneptora> ManDay: you have [b] as an output to blend and an input to pad, which itself feeds into blend
<Traneptora> filtergraphs must be trees. they can't contain cycles
<Traneptora> the question I have is what are you trying to do? because a cycle like that makes no sense conceptually. what would [out] look like? would it look like the first iteration? the fifth? etc. there's no way to parse that in a way that makes sense
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<Traneptora> you can always just have pad and blend there three times, but it's not clear what you expect to happen with a cycle as that's an indefinite number of iterations
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<ManDay> Traneptora: "A filtergraph is a directed graph of connected filters. It can contain cycles" ffmpeg-filters(1)
<ManDay> I want to create a motion-trace effect. A feedback loop on a graph can easily be well defined (cycle delays by 1 frame and is full-alpha on the 1st frame, for example).
<Traneptora> ManDay: that's a typo in the documentation. it should say "It cannot contain cycles"
<ManDay> Great :-(
<ManDay> Traneptora: It very much makes sense and I'm surprised that ffmpeg doesn't support it. It's pretty standard to have feedback loops in a/v processing
<Traneptora> the loop as you described is not clearly defined
<ManDay> Yes because ffmpeg doesn't define it?!
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<Traneptora> no, I mean, the loop that you described doesn't make any sense
<Traneptora> because there's no clear way to determine what ends up at [out]. how many iterations do you have to go through?
<ManDay> Of course it makes sense, it's a standard feedback. What comes out is going back in in the _next invocation_ of the filter.
<Traneptora> there's no such thing as the "next" invocation
<ManDay> For non-constant, non-synced framerates it obviously requires some generalization, but that's about it.
<Traneptora> there's always VFR
<Traneptora> that's why you have PTS
<Traneptora> for example, 1 second into the filtergraph you wrote, what's [out] supposed to look like?
<ManDay> What do you mean "what it's supposed to look like"?
<Traneptora> I mean, what result do you expect?
<Traneptora> because there's a large variety of different outputs that are all sent to out
<ManDay> You mean how a feedback loop is processed?
<Traneptora> > color=gray:320x240 [c]; [b] pad=320:240 [p]; [c][p] blend=multiply,split [b][out]
<Traneptora> this one
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<Traneptora> you have a feedback loop with absolutely no time delay so I don't see what you expect [out] to look like. ffmpeg has no idea how to run the loop
<Traneptora> why would it? you could run it like, 6 times or 25,000 times and you get the same PTS for both
<Traneptora> what's it supposed to do?
<ManDay> The time delay is implicit 1 frame. There is a notion of subsequent frames, like tmix uses it. The first frame which blend processes gets *no* input on the looped pad (for example, ffmpeg could define any other consistent rule to deal with that), subsequent frames get the input of the previous frame.
<ManDay> ("no input" = full alpha)
<ManDay> ehm, "no alpha"
<ManDay> that's absolut standard in signal processing
<ManDay> i mean any consistent semantic for feedback loops would be okay. but the fact that feedback loops are impossible is quite limiting.
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<ManDay> the only way now is to generate a very lengthy graph with a script, or re-run ffmpeg for a multipass - both just awkward ways to emulate a feedback
<ManDay> so no one has ever used ffmpeg to make a motion trace effect?
<ManDay> and I take it re-running ffmpeg to emulate the loop requires to use some lossless intermediate format
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<ManDay> And, for what it's worth, like I had thought earlier it would be necessary, setting the PTS on the output would even allow you to express the time delay explicitly.
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<ManDay> Re "cannot contain cycles", I felt further encouraged by ffmpeg outputting "Cycle detected" on CLI and not aborting. It seemed to be okay with that, and only failed at runtime with the 0x0 error. Are you positive that ffmpeg can't deal with cycles Traneptora ?
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<JEEB> ManDay: blending multiple frames from a single input sounds like the other side of the blend filter, tblend? no idea if it matches whatever you meant
<ManDay> JEEB: yes it's kind of like tblend, but more like a "toverlay" and also for more than 2 frames
<ManDay> i did another solution now, kind of hackish motion trail which involves tblend indeed.
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<ManDay> well, more like a recursive tblend it would be
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<Nemo_pi> ffmpeg also does to make a mp4 and using mp3s and combining it into static stream right?
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<Nemo_pi> is ffmpeg being able to stream headless with vlc?
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<mindfreeze> Hi,
<mindfreeze> Anyone got any idea why the NVENC do not allow to encode VBR/CBR above 400Mb/s for HEVC in 40series GPU.I could high enough bitrates in QP, but not in VBR
<mindfreeze> tried to force profile/other settings
<BtbN> Gotta ask Nvidia. 400Mbps is stupidly excessive anyway
<JEEB> the fun bit with hw encoders and their drivers :P
<JEEB> time to take NSA's ghidra into one's pretty hand and see if it's the driver, I guess? since the driver is closed source.
<mindfreeze> It is high, but was more of testing how high quality we can squeeze with VBR:)
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<mindfreeze> but at the same time, with AV1 NVENC, I could get more lossless quality, and with HEVC, I cannot get past 400. Since for this clip to hit high very good VMAF score and visual quality I would need 500ish Mb/s
<JEEB> at least for AVC nvenc used to have lossless support? is that no longer the casE?
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<mindfreeze> This was the logs
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<mindfreeze> JEEB: they have lossless for AVC and HEVC, but AVC do not have 10bit suppoort
<mindfreeze> so that is bummer
<BtbN> Even lossless quality won't be 400Mbps
<BtbN> so not sure what you want to push there :D
<JEEB> mindfreeze: yea but then at least you get your lossless towards you clearly are aiming with such high bit rates (even with something like 10bit 2160p24 or 2160p60 that's pretty dang high for lossy)
<JEEB> with lossless HEVC 10bit if nothing else
<BtbN> Encoders _cannot_ use unlimited amounts of bitrate
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<mindfreeze> Right, however with AV1 nvenc, i can easily push to above 800Mb/s, so i was not sure
<mindfreeze> Again lossless mode helps to hit crazy high bitrates
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<mindfreeze> we learned people in some industry uses weird codecs in post-production industry to hit "extreme high quality" which they think hardware codecs cannot hit, Eg Daniel2, NotchLC etc
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<BtbN> There just is no higher quality than lossless
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<Marth64> ffv1 and call it a day?
<mindfreeze> Marth64: the downside is we do not have GPU acceleration, so hard/impossible to get realtime decoding for 4K@60 fps
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<Curid> why can't the proprietary codec be implemented in hardware?
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<galad> What's the original format of the video? Do you even need to reencode them?
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