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<rainthree>
http://metamodular.com/Psychology/miscalculation.html "If any reader has more information related to my observation, or even just observations of their own, I would like to know about it." One very difficult skill to develop is how to *indirectly* help someone realize "on his own" that his habit is bad and costly. Telling someone the back-of-the-envelope calculations directly, works only in exceptional situations for certain persons, very rarely. This
<rainthree>
skill is sometimes called "mastery". It involves tricking (in a positive way) the other, just like parents sometimes have to trick the children to do something necessary without telling them: "you must do it", but instead telling some story or lie that will make him think "omg if I don't do it I will be screwed by the consequences of my action"
<ixelp>
Cost-effectiveness of learning
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<beach>
Interesting observation. I guess they way someone can be tricked depends a lot on that person's personality.
<beach>
So one would have to know that person quite well.
<rainthree>
yes
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<beach>
I haven't given much thought to how to improve things. I have mostly made observations and tried to put concrete values on the observations. I guess in my talks to industry, this information is mostly directed to managers, and I hope they know what to do.
<rainthree>
when I was a small child, I had the habit of always putting a finger into my mouth. My father told me to stop doing that but it didn't work. One day we encountered a black neighbor in the elevator and as I was genuinely curious, intrigued, *I asked* my father: "why is he black??". My father thought for some moments how to answer such a difficult (or rather impossible) question.. ? He was struck by an idea. He said: "Because when he was small he would
<rainthree>
always put his finger in the mouth. Look what happened, how black he has become..." The neighbor understood the matter immediately, and confirmed: "Yes, it is so.", as my face was expressing amazement "Is it so??? Really??". "I would always put the finger in my mouth and that's how I became black." Then he got out of the elevator.
<beach>
Heh! Nice story!
<beach>
Software developers might be slightly harder to trick.
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<rainthree>
perhaps one question is "how to make them afraid?" (Since then, I stopped doing it because as the impulse would appear, I would remember the serious consequences and although it was difficult, I would refrain from doing it.) So it seems inducing/using fear in a positive way is one tactic
<beach>
Well, you could threaten to fire a software developer, but that's pretty hard here in Europe at least. Plus, that's probably not much of a threat, because a new job can be found across the street.
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<rainthree>
basically it is more or less impossible/very very difficult to convince someone MAKE EFFORT to at least try to change/improve his ways. He would oppose it semi-automatically
<beach>
Yet people have burnout from being overworked, and I suspect that is largely because they work in inefficient ways.
<beach>
I guess burnout is not sufficiently scary.
<rainthree>
haha
<rainthree>
for example in a recently friendly discussion about org-mode with a guy, I just mentioned another note taking system called "zettelkasten". And just mentioned that I use it, in a simple text file, using lisp forms and C-M-f and C-M-b to navigate and C-s to search text through them.
<rainthree>
this online friend, immediately had a strong reaction.
<mfiano>
That's surprising since zettelkasten is just a method of note-taking, not an application; infact there are a few org-mode packages for that workflow.
<rainthree>
yes, so it doesn't matter, it's our mind that works in this way, we oppose ideas when they are presented to us in a way that is not tricky / indirect enough
<gilberth>
beach: I believe burnout comes from working in an ineffective way.
<rainthree>
and I told him about zettelkasten because the entire discussion was about how to improve efficiency, etc
<beach>
rainthree: That might be a slightly different, but related, phenomenon that I have also observed. If people have invested heavily in a tool or a programming language, their minds are not ready to be told that there was something better all along.
<rainthree>
yes
<beach>
rainthree: I observed that one a lot with my students at the time.
<beach>
gilberth: Good to know. I have no direct experience. Neither with myself or with my colleagues.
<mfiano>
burnout also comes from shifting interests.
<beach>
Like "mental swapping"?
<mfiano>
Sometimes it's no longer enjoyable to continue trying to solve a problem that demands a lot of work, whether working inefficiently or effectively over a longer period. Not strictly always because it demands a lot of work, but just because the solution it would solve itself is not appealing anymore.
<mfiano>
At least is the case for me.
<rainthree>
in myself I observed another (related) issue: because I often want to be corrected in order to improve myself and my skills, I got the habit of being too direct. I had the impression that others also want to be corrected because they know the cost of doing things wrong. Wrong impression, they don't know the cost. Very rarely people want to be corrected directly. But, still, there is *much* room for indirect correction... And now I have learned to
<rainthree>
communicate differently, I am not as insistent as I used to be in the past
<mfiano>
I get "burnt out", switch to something else, and end up revisiting it at a later point to try to annotate why the problem solution is not enjoyable, and reflect from that.
<rainthree>
I have started learning the art of saying wrong things - things that the other wants to hear - and only occasionally throwing a "candy" - a correct thing. And it seems he is more willing to catch the "candy"
<rainthree>
*the other becomes more willing to catch the "candy"
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<rainthree>
mfiano: we often work on hard projects, that in the end prove to be not-as-useful, right?
<mfiano>
or we discover that along the way, even after extensive research and design documents created.
<mfiano>
or just the way we use computers changes in the meantime
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<jcowan>
rainthree: to be quite direct about it, I think your father was very wrong to lie to you about such a matter. You would have age-graded out of putting your finger in your mouth soon enough (as I know from my daughter and grandchildren), and the implication was that your neighbor was black as a consequence for his bad behavior: i.e. as a punishment.
<rainthree>
no, I did not perceive it being "a punishment"
<rainthree>
punishment means someone punishes you because you didn't do what he requested you to do
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<rainthree>
I actually would have proceeded as you described, I would not have lied because I don't really care about my child doing that or not. Lying to the child can indeed be dangerous
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<rainthree>
in this context it turned it was not dangerous, the only effect it had on me is that I thought it's some natural law, so I refrained from putting the finger into the mouth, just in case...
<rainthree>
*it turned out
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<rainthree>
this specific lie had no other effects, no negative impact on me. On the other hand the lie that Santa exists, had negative impacts on me
<Lycurgus>
it didn make u even more racist?
<rainthree>
I was never racist
<Lycurgus>
do i have to play woke polizei here and point out that ur lil vignette depicted blackness as a punishment?
<rainthree>
my father used to ask me laughingly : "Aren't you racist? When you were very young you were afraid not to become black".
<bike>
This seems kind of off-topic. There's #lispcafe if you want to continue this discussion in a more appropriate venue.
<Lycurgus>
ikr? I was surprised to see it still goin
<rainthree>
Lycurgus, still you contradicted me and participated to it. Contradict me in lispcafe
* Lycurgus
demurs, but ty
<rainthree>
if you're so sure about your perception and your understanding of the matter. Don't escape, contradict and show how correct your conclusion that I am a racist was
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<Lycurgus>
i'll engage on lisp stuffs, will that do?
<bike>
You can both escape to #lispcafe. If you're going to have a slapfight do it there or in privmsgs.
<rainthree>
by the way beach is not there that's why I did not start the discussion there
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<bike>
Okay. Nobody's in trouble or anything. I am just telling you to stop this discussion here. Or at least bring it back to the software development type stuff beach's pages are more about.
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* contrapunctus
reads "slapfight" and pictures two cats slapping each each other
<rainthree>
"How well **** explained in many speeches if you follow logic strictly, without intelligence, you misunderstand many things. You draw logical but idiotic conclusions."
<copec>
mfiano I get burnt out all the time. I think one of the "problems" with lisp is that code can *always* be pushed in a better direction rather than reach some sort of nexus. Most other languages are a lego set and once assembled that's about as good as it can get...
<mfiano>
and you don't even have to have someone stomp on your creation to rewrite it in rust
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<copec>
Rust is just super gluing it together after it was stomped on
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<mfiano>
if other languages are legos, Common Lisp is sawdust and glue. Take that how you see fit.
<bjorkintosh>
copec, if you picked a style, would it help?
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<copec>
mfiano, I see a meme about CL == wet particle board
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<pl>
CL can be, at times, a magically given life big ball of timey-wimey string
* pl
finally macroexpanded his way to /why/ he was getting "standard-generic-function can't be dumped into fasl"
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