<ixelp>
support domain socket on SBCL/*nix · usocket/usocket@7a24c57 · GitHub
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<semz>
_death: afaict that branch is only taken if host is nil or eq to the wildcard host.
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<_death>
where do you see "host is nil"
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<jcowan>
_death: for local-domain (aka Unix-domain) sockets the host is always localhost, so the socket doesn't care what you specify
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<_death>
it's not about unix sockets.. it's just a bug that causes ordinary tcp socket-connect to fail, including everything that uses usocket for that, like drakma or dexador.. so I just reverted to 3006689e
<semz>
_death: by reading the wrong line :S
<semz>
it's local-host that'd have to be nil
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<JoshYoshi>
:trumpet:
<JoshYoshi>
Hmm
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<Josh_2>
:trumpet:
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<beach>
Is (DECLARE ((ARRAY FIXNUM) X)) valid syntax?
<beach>
On the one hand, DECLARE takes a "declaration specifier" which is a list where the CAR is a "declaration identifier", and a "declaration identifier" is a symbol.
<beach>
On the other hand, the dictionary entry for TYPE says that (typespec var*) is an abbreviation for (TYPE typespec var*) and as far as I can see, it doesn't restrict typespec to be a symbol.
<beach>
Furthermore, SBCL accepts the example, which suggests that the SBCL maintainers considered the syntax valid.
<beach>
A case for WSCL it seems.
<pfdietz>
It is valid, IMO.
<beach>
Because of the "on the other hand" argument?
<thuna`>
It is convenient if valid but I would say that the more strict restriction applies so it's not valid
<beach>
Oh, I guess I can ask people to run the example in the implementations at their disposal.
<pfdietz>
So, this was something that appeared in the final version, rather than in this draft of the standard?
<beach>
semz: Thank you for pointing that out.
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<pfdietz>
Yes, ty.
<beach>
Brucio-61: The s-expression-syntax library rejects this syntax. Does this fact reflect your choice of interpretation of the standard?
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<Brucio-61>
beach: i simply haven't thought about that case before. i can probably adjust the syntax description to allow the compound type specifier variant
<beach>
I see. Well, we should think about it at least. I wonder what other Common Lisp implementations do.
<Brucio-61>
i will probably have to perform some implicit conversion since the resulting node cannot use a compound type specifier as the declaration identifier (is that the term?)
<beach>
Yes, declaration identifier.
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<jcowan>
I'd say that given a conflict between the main text and the glossary, the main text should normally win
<beach>
There is also a conflict between two different sections of the main text.
<beach>
But, given 3.3.3.1, I think the syntax is allowed.
<gilberth>
The trouble with that shorthand notation is that there is no way in ANSI-CL to tell whether a symbol names a type nor whether a symbol names a declaration. So you can't have macros that actually look at declarations. This may be troublesome when you want to implement a macro which binds variables serially, yet you want to use nested LETs. As you would need to pull out declarations applying to a specific symbol.
<gilberth>
Consider e.g. that you want to implement DESTRUCTURING-BIND on your own. You would need to make it turn into just one LET. Can be done, but it may be awkward.
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<pfdietz>
gilberth: I don't understand that objection. You can always recognize declaration forms, since they are conses who car is the symbol declare.
<gilberth>
When I see (declare (foo x)) is that a type declaration or a FOO declaration?
<gilberth>
Suppose I want to lift all type declarations for 'x', do I need to lift that declaration, or don't I need to do that?
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<_death>
but there's possibly a cltl2 way: (sb-cltl2:declaration-information 'declaration)
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<gilberth>
I was specifically speaking about ANSI-CL. I'm aware of that olde lexical environment access. And it's not SBCL-specific in any way. In practice I am fine with using implementation-specific means.
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<gilberth>
More severe IMHO is that neither EVAL nor COMPILE does take an environment argument. This makes it impossible to write a code walker.
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<gilberth>
And even if you're not after a code walker, what good is CONSTANTP telling you that something is a constant, but you cannot get at the value? In a macro?
<_death>
I agree
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<_death>
well, constantp is still useful in some (rare, unfortunately) cases, e.g., when generating reference documentation it can indicate that the symbol represents a constant :) or sometimes the symbol is also boundp, and you can get at the value then
<gilberth>
Yes, but in a [compiler] macro you may want to get at the value.
<_death>
right, that restriction makes compiler macros less useful than seems at first :/
<gilberth>
This not being able to walk code however is a roadblock for my noffi project. Otherwise I could do my own type propagation / interference for foreign types. And possibly identify trivial cases in which stack-allocation suffices.
<gilberth>
sb-alien has an advantage here as Python has specific knowledge about sb-alien. Both know each other pretty well.
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<_death>
I guess in practice one settles on having the necessary bits of implementation-specific code
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<gilberth>
Yes, but in this case I would need to resort to non-exported functions for the most part. This different from e.g. figuring out how to make a weak hashtable.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, what I'm after are missing pieces of the language. Things that cannot possibly be implemented as a library. And with language I mean the language itself, not missing bits and pieces to interact with the environment.
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<_death>
I guess implementation-internal -> implementation-external path is well traveled (presentable interface, convincing the implementors, etc.) and in 2082 when they start discussing the next CL standard, the implementation-external interfaces will be criticized and reshaped into the 2094 CL
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* jcowan
would volunteer to edit it, except ....
<gilberth>
Well, we have a few success-stories: relative package names^W^W^Wpackage local nicknames, that "R" number marker, Bordeaux threads, Gray Streams, the MOP. All things I consider de facto standard.
<_death>
but they're not all CL-standard worthy :)
<gilberth>
But EVAL taking an environment argument is too niche for that. Despite I have not written an article why that is important and why that is a road block when writing a code walker.
<gilberth>
_death: Who says that? There are universally available and in wide-spread use. Not much different from the pretty printer or the LOOP macro.
<_death>
gilberth: I say that :) just my opinion.. e.g., I think PLNs might have use cases but in general I avoid and dislike them, Gray Streams were already criticized for parroting the user API instead of being a useful extender API (cf. Franz's Simple Streams), Bordeaux Threads is currently redesigned (v2) though I've not kept up with the changes, it obviously misses big pieces like atomics and such.. the MOP also had some work done on it
<_death>
since the book came out, but is the closest to worthy
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<_death>
also, Bordeaux Threads is a particular library and not a specification with multiple implementations and PLN doesn't have a reference spec although multiple implementations exist
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<gilberth>
_death: Sure. But what was first? The LOOP macro or the spec of the LOOP macro.
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<_death>
sure :) all these are useful and may become CL-worthy by then
<gilberth>
We have plenty of time. I just wanted to point out that a lot of what we see in ANSI-CL once was a handy library. And as I understood it CLtL1 was more like writing about commonly seen features than anything else.
<gilberth>
And IMHO this is a good way to go, instead of specifying things out of the blue sky that someone somewhen dreamt of. In that regard too CL is a practical language.
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<Josh_2>
Lets get all the folks who wrote a JSON library together to write 1 more JSON library :)
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<yitzi>
Josh_2: I veto that.
<Josh_2>
:joy:
<Josh_2>
The easiest way to solve this problem is to make a new Common Lisp standard where the productivity of the language is butchered. That way people have to collaborate on large do-everything-or-die-trying libraries!
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<pfdietz>
Let's get all the people who used the wrong JSON library to stop their vile heresy.